Class of Air Warfare Destroyers for Aus

Nautilus

New Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

The Kongou class is actually displacing 9485t fully loaded which is 285t more than the normal Arleigh Burke. The Jap ships are 20m longer and 3m wider than the AB and have some nifty enhancements - among them a backup radar ;)

Let's see if the Aussie AWD will have a hangar for two helicopters. I read that they are looking at adding a UAV drone. One helicopter would leave the ship a bit weak in the ASW area.
 

cherry

Banned Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

What sort of crew numbers are RAN looking at that would deem the design suitable? I notice that the AB is around 330 crew and the Japanese Destroyer is 300. Are RAN pushing for less? Also, both ships have 96 VLS cells, what are the chances of Aussie ship having this many?
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

cherry said:
What sort of crew numbers are RAN looking at that would deem the design suitable? I notice that the AB is around 330 crew and the Japanese Destroyer is 300. Are RAN pushing for less? Also, both ships have 96 VLS cells, what are the chances of Aussie ship having this many?
The original G&C submission was a crew of 260. It is now supposed to be lower but I have NFI what the new numbers are. G&C did say that they could get it down again, but I don't think it's near the pref (??) 180.
 

Nautilus

New Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

There is an obvious drawback to having such a small crew to man a ship this size with many complex systems. In a crisis situation there are less people to fall back to when the crew gets tired. Not to mention that battle damage may cost lives... having 330 doing esentially the same task does mean some redundancy which could come in handy in such a case.
 

Nautilus

New Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Attached is a picture showing all three german F124 destroyers taken in Feb 2005. Ironically these ships replace the german Lutjens class which were initially identical to the Aussie DDG's. So both navies had the same predecessor.

Some time back there was an article in the Australian Navy League mag, pointing out how useful it would be to consolidate Aus warships to one design source (ie german since the Anzac class is a german design). Obviously this view did not prevail.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Nautilus said:
There is an obvious drawback to having such a small crew to man a ship this size with many complex systems. In a crisis situation there are less people to fall back to when the crew gets tired. Not to mention that battle damage may cost lives... having 330 doing esentially the same task does mean some redundancy which could come in handy in such a case.
Its also an issue of damage control - more men = extra redundancy if automation is compromised.
 

knightrider4

Active Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I think the crew numbers quoted are around 230 which could well be a bit of a sticking point. If the RAN ditches the Baby burke and goes for the spaniard I assume they will still be fitting the SPY-1D (V5) as against the smaller less powerful SPY-1F that are fitted to the F100?
 

pepsi

New Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why we require ships with these smaller crew requirements, i just find it hard to believe that we would have trouble manning a few ships with a crew of around 330
 

santi

Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I think the crew numbers quoted are around 230 which could well be a bit of a sticking point. If the RAN ditches the Baby burke and goes for the spaniard I assume they will still be fitting the SPY-1D (V5) as against the smaller less powerful SPY-1F that are fitted to the F100?
The F-100 are fitted with the "complete" SPY-1D. Are the some smaller Nansen (5.000 t) for the Norwegian Navy the vessels equiped with the "Aegis-F"
 

Whiskyjack

Honorary Moderator / Defense Professional / Analys
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I believe there is a general trend in world navies to go for lower crews, the US had a requirement crew size for the next gen DD21 of 95! Damn hard to recruit!
 

Nautilus

New Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

pepsi said:
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know why we require ships with these smaller crew requirements, i just find it hard to believe that we would have trouble manning a few ships with a crew of around 330
The RAN is facing enormous challenges crewing even the existing ships! Two new Huon class minehunters where mothballed to free up staff for other duties. Two of the Adelaide class frigates will be retired next year (and used for spares?) as otherwise the two new Anzac ships couldn't be crewed. These ships still have live in them - the remaining four units are meant to stay in service until 2015 (possibly longer).

The ADF is running ad campaigns in all sorts of magazines to attract new recruits. However, it is not simply a matter of employing X number of people. Firstly they need to be suitable for the job and secondly need extensive training to do the job well.
 

cherry

Banned Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Here is part of an article posted on the Australian Government Defence website from their "Defence Magazine" for this month. It is in relation to the new AWDs for RAN.

The White Paper observed that without a long-range air-defence capacity, Royal Australian Navy (RAN) fleet units would be more vulnerable to air attack, less capable of defending forces deployed off shore and less capable of contributing effectively to coalition operations. Consequently, the Government agreed to replace the FFGs (frigates) with at least three air-defence capable ships, expected to be significantly larger and more capable than the FFGs.
I was always under the impression that by around 2020 we would have 8 ANZAC frigates, 3 AWD and 4 FFG frigates (these to be replaced by a new frigate design, bringing our major surface fleet numbers to 15. By the sounds of this article, the 4 FFG (originally 6 FFG) will be replaced by only 3 AWD bringing our major surface fleet numbers to only 11. Can anyone please clear this up for me? Cheers
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

cherry said:
Here is part of an article posted on the Australian Government Defence website from their "Defence Magazine" for this month. It is in relation to the new AWDs for RAN.



I was always under the impression that by around 2020 we would have 8 ANZAC frigates, 3 AWD and 4 FFG frigates (these to be replaced by a new frigate design, bringing our major surface fleet numbers to 15. By the sounds of this article, the 4 FFG (originally 6 FFG) will be replaced by only 3 AWD bringing our major surface fleet numbers to only 11. Can anyone please clear this up for me? Cheers
Yep, the RAN WILL operate only 11 major surface combatant in years to come, short of a massive funding boost...
 

cherry

Banned Member
Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Sales mission for US navy destroyers

Author: Fred Brenchley
Date: 03/01/2006
Words: 594
Source: AFR




Publication: The Financial Review
Section: News
Page: 3


The US navy is dispatching one of its latest Arleigh Burke class destroyers to Sydney on an unusual sales mission - to lobby support for the US design for Australia's three new $6 billion air warfare destroyers.
The USS Pinckney's arrival - for the Royal Australian Navy's 2006 Seapower Conference this month - is aimed at politicians who will discuss challenges for the Australian navy as it prepares for the high-tech new destroyers and its two large new maritime support vessels capable of transporting troops and equipment.
There are plans for Defence Minister Robert Hill and Finance Minister Nick Minchin to visit the Pinckney, perhaps being aboard as it sails in through Sydney Heads.
Both ministers will be crucial to cabinet's decision in 2007 on whether to accept an "evolved" Arleigh Burke-designed ship from the US shipbuilder Gibbs & Cox or choose Spain's existing F100, modified for Australian conditions.
While Gibbs & Cox has already been selected as the preferred designer and has joined the government's air warfare alliance team of Adelaide-based ASC Shipbuilders and Raytheon as the combat systems integrator, the final design of the Australian ships is far from clear.
Gibbs & Cox, while busily designing an "evolved" Arleigh Burke ship to meet the Australian navy's requirements, has yet to face cabinet scrutiny to compare its design with the existing Spanish ship, which is also equipped with America's advanced AEGIS combat system capable of detecting hostile aircraft and missiles at more than 150 kilometres.
This is now standard Defence Department practice for big ticket items - comparing the military's preferred equipment with an existing off-the-shelf model.
While the navy supports the US "evolved" air warfare destroyer design, senior finance ministers are understood to lean towards the Spanish option, with its known costs.
The Pinckney, commissioned in May 2004, contains the latest AEGIS system, known as baseline 7.1 with enhanced radar.
"If Gibbs & Cox can meet the navy's requirements and the alliance contract system of ASC, and if Gibbs & Cox and Raytheon can build the ships on time and to budget, then the Americans should win the design competition," said a naval source. "If they cannot, cabinet has a fall-back option with the Spanish existing design."
While the Australian navy believes the Spanish F100 built by Navantia does not meet its range and endurance criteria, the Spanish option is still very much in the race.
Part of cabinet's recent allocation of $455 million to phase two of the competition will be spent on alliance work on the "evolved" US design. Money is also allocated for minimal changes to the F100 to meet the operational needs of the Australian navy, including English signage.
Although the F100 is closer to the smaller crew requirement of the Australian navy than the existing US Arleigh Burke class, it suffers from the lack of weapons growth potential of the "evolved" or cut-down Arleigh Burke design prepared by Gibbs & Cox.
The navy wants the Gibbs & Cox "evolved" design to have a crew of about 200, compared with 360 on the existing US Arleigh Burke destroyers, plus weapons growth potential.
The new destroyers are expected to be in service for about 30 years, and the Australian navy wants ships that can carry future missile weapons systems, including possibly sea-based ballistic missile interception.
There are tentative plans for the first of the three new air warfare destroyers to enter service in late 2013.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I suspect that Australia will purchase several OPVs after the AWDs are built to free up its deestroyers and frigates from fishery protection duties in the southern seas. As New Zealand has shown, wasting a frigate on fishery protection is a waste of assets.
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Sea Toby said:
I suspect that Australia will purchase several OPVs after the AWDs are built to free up its deestroyers and frigates from fishery protection duties in the southern seas. As New Zealand has shown, wasting a frigate on fishery protection is a waste of assets.
While I would love to see a couple of OPVs I've seen nothing in the local press and discussion boards to indicate that the RAN will procure any.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Sea Toby said:
I suspect that Australia will purchase several OPVs after the AWDs are built to free up its deestroyers and frigates from fishery protection duties in the southern seas. As New Zealand has shown, wasting a frigate on fishery protection is a waste of assets.
Australia has already done so. Oceanic Viking is operational and armed with 2x 12.7mm machine guns. It's operated by the Australian Customs Service, hence the pretty colours...

Here's a pic:

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/SOMPRU03.jpg

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/SOMPRU08.jpg

http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/images/SOMPRU07.jpg
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Yeah but AD, we only have one, plus the new Armidales. Another 1-2 would sort out the long distance patrolling of our fishery zones rather than using any of our frigates.
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Cootamundra said:
Yeah but AD, we only have one, plus the new Armidales. Another 1-2 would sort out the long distance patrolling of our fishery zones rather than using any of our frigates.
True, though given the speed of the acquisition, I'd imagine that if the need became pressing, more would be acquired. Customs still suffers from similar problems as the RAN, ie: finding people willing to go to sea for extended periods, and the length of time it takes to train them...
 

Cootamundra

New Member
Aussie Digger said:
True, though given the speed of the acquisition, I'd imagine that if the need became pressing, more would be acquired. Customs still suffers from similar problems as the RAN, ie: finding people willing to go to sea for extended periods, and the length of time it takes to train them...
Fair point, and in today's environment there is not much need for another OPV. The Armidales will do for now no doubt, hell, if Bomber Beasley ever got in they'd get transferred to the new Coast Guard and then the RAN would need to fight for recruits with Australia's newest service :)
 
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