Class of Air Warfare Destroyers for Aus

[alexsa]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I was just wondering, why didn't they go with the RN type 45 destroyer? I thought it was quite good, and extermely modern.

The F100 and F124 are new designs as well. The AB itself has been through a few design iterations and system enhancmentns with each flight. In any case I understand the vessel to be offered as the design for the RAN AWD is be an 'evolved' version of each type to meet the crewing. system and weapons requirements.

The relevant issue for each of the designs under consideration is that it can take the Aegis/SPY-1 system already seclected (there wouel appear to be more work to modify the F124 I have to admit) however the Tyoe 45 is built around the Sampson/PAAMS option and wouel need signficant design modifiction. Added to this it is only just in construciton and as a result there would appear to be a higher potential for problems and slipage despite the obvious potential of the platform. This being said the other platfrom on which the disign may be based are world class in any case.

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

The minimum number of VLS cells the RAN wants is 64 (96 cells if possible).

Cell load out would depend on the mission and the threat, but expect at least 32 ESSM in quad packs as standard (8 cells). If we go the minimum 64 cell ship then you're still looking at 54 cells available for whatever.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I'll be stunned if the FFG's are still around when the AWD's are around. Senator HILL has hinted that the RAN fleet will be comprised of 11 major surface combatants once the AWD's are in-service, (8 ANZAC's, 3 AWD's). However the RAN had a "maritime blue-print" on their website a while back which was essentially a publicly released long range planning document.

However it seems strange that the Australian Government is willing to spend $1 billion on upgrading the 4 FFG's, when they might only get another 6-7 years service from the vessels once the upgrade is complete. It doesn't exactly seem like money well spent if that is the plan...

This document outlined that 4 upgraded FFG's would remain in-service to around 2020 with the 8 ANZAC's and 3 AWD's, providing a surface combatant force of 15. The document then outlined that a new Frigate acquisition project would commence once the AWD's were completed to replace the entire ANZAC and FFG fleet with 10-12 new vessels of a common configuration from 2020 onwards.

A new submarine acquisition program would also commence from about 2020 to replace the Collins Class according to this plan.

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I'll be stunned if the FFG's are still around when the AWD's are around. Senator HILL has hinted that the RAN fleet will be comprised of 11 major surface combatants once the AWD's are in-service, (8 ANZAC's, 3 AWD's). However the RAN had a "maritime blue-print" on their website a while back which was essentially a publicly released long range planning document.

However it seems strange that the Australian Government is willing to spend $1 billion on upgrading the 4 FFG's, when they might only get another 6-7 years service from the vessels once the upgrade is complete. It doesn't exactly seem like money well spent if that is the plan...

This document outlined that 4 upgraded FFG's would remain in-service to around 2020 with the 8 ANZAC's and 3 AWD's, providing a surface combatant force of 15. The document then outlined that a new Frigate acquisition project would commence once the AWD's were completed to replace the entire ANZAC and FFG fleet with 10-12 new vessels of a common configuration from 2020 onwards.

A new submarine acquisition program would also commence from about 2020 to replace the Collins Class according to this plan.

Ah! Good old Plan Blue. It will all depend on who is in Government at the time and if they are more interested in buying votes rather than defending the country.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Ah! Good old Plan Blue. It will all depend on who is in Government at the time and if they are more interested in buying votes rather than defending the country.

I take it you're familiar with Plan Blue then eh?

Btw, when has an Australian Government EVER been interested in defending Australia, rather than buying votes? I doubt even in the middle of WW2 when Australia came under direct attack, that the Government was more concerned with the defence of Australia then it was with getting itself re-elected...

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I take it you're familiar with Plan Blue then eh?

Btw, when has an Australian Government EVER been interested in defending Australia, rather than buying votes? I doubt even in the middle of WW2 when Australia came under direct attack, that the Government was more concerned with the defence of Australia then it was with getting itself re-elected...

I'm intimately familiar with Plan Blue (both the unclass public version and the secret version) as I got roped into the team that did all the keyboard monkey work to produce it.

A new version of it will follow the new White Paper which should be out late 2006/early 2007.

As for politicians, the best way to get them to wake up to themselves would be to stick them into the ships, planes, and APC's whenever they send us off to fight with obsolete gear.

 

[pepsi]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I've always wondered why we don't design our own naval stuff, i mean, we build it all, surely we could design it to?

I thought maybe if NZ was more into buying hardware, it would be a good plan because we would always have someone willing to buy from us

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Do you mean to suggest by that, that the Parliamentary Program isn't doing it's job? What about all those nice photo's of MP's suiting up in Hawk flight suits and trundling around Pucka in M113's? Surely that'd give them a "good" idea of how capable our military currently is wouldn't it?

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Do you mean to suggest by that, that the Parliamentary Program isn't doing it's job? What about all those nice photo's of MP's suiting up in Hawk flight suits and trundling around Pucka in M113's? Surely that'd give them a "good" idea of how capable our military currently is wouldn't it?

There was a female MP who did her stretch on one of the FFG's. She complained to CDF that the combat coveralls weren't "female friendly" and that the steel cap boots were "too heavy".

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

There was a female MP who did her stretch on one of the FFG's. She complained to CDF that the combat coveralls weren't "female friendly" and that the steel cap boots were "too heavy".

Ha. They should have made her wear a pack... Seriously though the DMO probably got straight onto that "problem" though...

 

[pepsi]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Does anyone know when the winner of these 3 potential ships will be announced? After reading up a bit more, especially on that arleigh burke one (i didn't realise there were more versions of it, thanks supe and aussie digger) i think the arleigh burke one would be a great choice, i guess it depends on how many crew it needs though..

But i guess the fact that they even considered it until now must at least mean that there is some way to get it down to 150 or 180 crew somehow

Also, does anyone know what other countries use the arleigh burke, i read on wikipedia that its dubbed the 'international frigate' which made me think it must be used by a bunch of countries, but so far i havent found any information saying its used by anyone other than the USA

 

[abramsteve]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Thats a good question. I didnt think that anyone else used them, but according to that Wikipedia site the Japanese use 4 modified Flight 1 AB's, but still...

I was wondering if the OHP's could be refitted to give them greater offensive capabilities, or would any upgrades be system based?

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Does anyone know when the winner of these 3 potential ships will be announced? After reading up a bit more, especially on that arleigh burke one (i didn't realise there were more versions of it, thanks supe and aussie digger) i think the arleigh burke one would be a great choice, i guess it depends on how many crew it needs though..

But i guess the fact that they even considered it until now must at least mean that there is some way to get it down to 150 or 180 crew somehow

Also, does anyone know what other countries use the arleigh burke, i read on wikipedia that its dubbed the 'international frigate' which made me think it must be used by a bunch of countries, but so far i havent found any information saying its used by anyone other than the USA

The Navy has sent its recommendations to Cabinet which will (hopefully) make the decision late August (the were supposed to make the decision mid July but delayed it for some reason). I know which one is the Navy preference but until the decision is made public I can't say anything else.

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Thats a good question. I didnt think that anyone else used them, but according to that Wikipedia site the Japanese use 4 modified Flight 1 AB's, but still...

I was wondering if the OHP's could be refitted to give them greater offensive capabilities, or would any upgrades be system based?

The OHP's are undergoing the FFG upgrade.

That is to say that HMAS SYDNEY is sitting in dry dock at Garden Island while ADI tries to figure out how to un-ferg the massive ferg up they created.

 

[abramsteve]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Thanks! I just looked up the upgrade and it looks like its just to bring them up to a more modern standard and not really add that much.

What are some of the problems with the upgrade? Its hard to find out cause they dont say much on official type sites!

 

[AMTP10E]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Thanks! I just looked up the upgrade and it looks like its just to bring them up to a more modern standard and not really add that much.

What are some of the problems with the upgrade? Its hard to find out cause they dont say much on official type sites!

There's a whole bunch of stuff (some of which I can't tell you) but there is one lesson that every body needs to remember...

If you're gonna add stuff (and hence weight) to an existing ship design, make sure that you do your ship stability sums properly before adding the aforementioned stuff onto said ship design.

 

[abramsteve]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

I sure hope they sort everything out! I love the OHP's and I always thought of them as being under utillized/armed! Will these problems cause a large delay in the projects completion dat?

 

[alexsa]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Also, does anyone know what other countries use the arleigh burke, i read on wikipedia that its dubbed the 'international frigate' which made me think it must be used by a bunch of countries, but so far i havent found any information saying its used by anyone other than the USA

The Arleigh Burke (DDG51) is only usd by the USN. The Kongo Class in japanese service is based on the DDG51, details can be found on deagel.com at:

http://www.deagel.com/pandora/?p=pm00214001

Simlarly the KDXIII being built for Korea is a counterpart the the DDG51, however both designs are diferent the the DDG51 and are a different class of ship. The International was a proposed Gibbs and Cox design that has not been taken up by anybody to date but as indicated by the Navy League it was possibly to be proposed forthe AWD project (this observation was made very early in the process)

http://navyleag.customer.netspace.net.au/fc_07s4.htm

As noted in wikipedia the International frigate is a scaled back version of the DDG51, however, noting the weapons carraige capciyt of the AWD it seems unlikely that the vessel will be scaled back to the extent althogu it will certainly be built for much lower manning. If you look at the link below which examins Taiwans AWD project (albeit a very old link) you will see the DDG51 and the Interantional Frigate are treated sperately:

http://www.amiinter.com/samples/taiwan/TW1301.html

Most of the literature I read at the moment referes to an 'evolved' design of the DDG51. This being said there are other wouel know better than I what may pop out of the mill with this project

 

[cherry]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

So, if the AWD is fitted with the minimum 64 VLS, what missile configuration would be best assuming that SM-6, SM-3, ESSM, and TACTOM missiles (or an equivalent) are all fitted? My theory is 8 X ESSM cells (making 32 ESSM missiles in total), 8 X SM-3 cells, 24 X SM-6 cells, and 24 X TACTOM cells. If 72 cells were fitted I would stick with the same configuration and add another 8 SM-6 missiles. And then if another 8 cells were added, giving a total of 80 cells, then either another 8 TACTOM or 8 SM-3 missiles could be fitted.

If all of these weapons are selected, along with Harpoon, Typhoon, torpedos, a short range missile system such as Rolling Airframe Missile, and a five inch gun, then this will make for one almighty platform for RAN.

 

[rickusn]

Re: Class of Aus AWD's

Me thinks that at most 48 cells will be the #. Otherwise the ship will have to be double-ended with vls cells. Making for a ship the size of a Burke.

Would this not be too expensive?