British Army News and Discussion

swerve

Super Moderator
Ajax going from bad to worse in the UK with real concerns on the project future….

The British army has 30 years of constant cock-ups on AFV procurement. IIRC it was over ten years ago that I added up published figures for spending on not buying AFVs in the previous decade & a bit & got to over a billion quid, & that was an incomplete tally. And then it went for an 'off the shelf' option which required an almost complete redesign & building a new factory, at enormous expense, with negligible prospects of exports. What could possibly go wrong?

JUST BUY SOMETHING THAT WORKS! Do not try to reinvent wheels.
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
British Army is seeking an "Armilite" based rifle for it's new Special Operations Brigade (i.e. Ranger Bns), designated as the 'Alternative Individual Weapon (AIW) system
And, before anyone starts with the "They could acquire the US Army NGSW" this is to be a 5.56mm rifle, optimized to use the " L15A2, a 62gr 5.56x45 NATO ball round"
We'll see where this goes as there is a whole horde of possible suppliers out there.
701577419 - Army Special Operations Brigade Rifle Procurement and Support of an Armalite Rifle (AR) platform Alternative Individual Weapon (AIW) System. - Find a Tender
II.2.1) Total quantity or scope ...
...
Anticipated delivery of the trial AIW Systems to a UK MOD Location is required by December 2021 or March 2022 at the latest.

The AIW system must be optimised to be used with a suppressor fitted as its primary configuration. The AIW system will consist of:

1. A Rifle System (comprising of a Rifle and Signature Reduction System); AND

2. An Optic System

The AIW system will be a 5.56mm Armalite Rifle (AR) platform, optimised for use with L15A2, a 62gr 5.56x45 NATO ball round, equivalent to SS109.

An AR platform is defined as being gas operated with a rotating, locking bolt.

The rifle should have a non-reciprocating charging handle.

The rifle’s controls are to include: a magazine release, working parts release and a rotating selector lever that incorporates a safe setting.

The rifle is to have a standard configuration, not bullpup, with the magwell in-front of the trigger housing.

The rifles upper and lower are to be mated using industry standard pivot / takedown pins located at the front and rear of the lower receiver.

Signature Reduction System:

The Signature Reduction System is to be detachable, to enable the operator to configure the Rifle System to meet operational requirements.

Optic System:

The Optic system is to complement the Rifle and should be ballistically matched to the stated ammunition nature and supplied barrel length.

Alternative Individual Weapon System:

As a complete system, the AIW system is expected to perform consistently regardless of its configuration, i.e. with or without a Signature Reduction Device fitted, across all operational scenarios. ...
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yep, lots of vendors chopping at the bit. Interesting bullpups are not to be offered. As a leftie, not on my to have list.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The NZDF uses the LMT M4 rifle across the board and they are very happy with it. It was the winner of a RFT where the submitters weapons were subjected to a very thorough scientific study and assessment by the DTSO. NZDF uses match grade ammo with it. After it entered into service the NZSAS took an interest in the weapon and then adopted it for their use without modification.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
16 Regiment Royal Artillery has accepted into service the first tranche of the Sky Sabre missile based air defence system. It's a three part system with each battery comprising of:
  • 3 trucks, fitted with 8 cell CAMM(L) missile modules.
  • 1 Giraffe Agile Multi-Beam 3D medium-range surveillance radar that rotates 360 degrees on an extending mast and can scan out to 120km.
  • 1 vehicle mounted computer control system linking up the radar and missiles sending them to their targets. It also includes the Link 16 TDL allowing Sky Sabre to cross link with RN vessels, RAF systems and allies. This is based on the Israeli Iron Dome command and control system.
It looks like it could be a very effective system and the range could be extended if the Army acquires the CAMM(L)-ER. This system is the long overdue Rapier replacement.

New British air defence missile system enters service (ukdefencejournal.org.uk)
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
A very capable system to replace Rapier. Rapier and later Jernas were capable for their day. Fast reaction time and a decent EO sight but had to be reloaded manually, had rounds exposed to the elements and various components weren't very robust. Interestingly Jernas was marketed as being able to deal with cruise missiles, a claim OEMs of competing systems never made.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A very capable system to replace Rapier. Rapier and later Jernas were capable for their day. Fast reaction time and a decent EO sight but had to be reloaded manually, had rounds exposed to the elements and various components weren't very robust. Interestingly Jernas was marketed as being able to deal with cruise missiles, a claim OEMs of competing systems never made.
Yes. I still think they need a 8 x 8 wheeled vehicle based combined gun and missile system, using the Starstreak HVM. They already use a 12 cell Starstreak module on a BAE Stormer tracked vehicle, however I believe that the 8 x 8 gun and Starstreak combo offers more speed and versatility.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I see a need for Starstreak to be mounted on a AFV to operate in places where they are exposed to both direct and indirect fire. I still however don't see why LML tripod launchers can't also be operated, mounted on the flatbeds of softskins. An advantage with the LMS [unlike Javelin and Starburst which had 3 the Strastreak LMS only has 2 launchers] is that is can be carried onto the top of buildings and houses.

Starstreak has been around since the 1990's but apparently was only for sale to NATO countries. In South East Asia Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia [a former Starburst operator] have bought it.

What are your thoughts on a vehicle mounted gun system? A mini gun for the sheer volume of fire or a 30mm for the longer range?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I see a need for Starstreak to be mounted on a AFV to operate in places where they are exposed to both direct and indirect fire. I still however don't see why LML tripod launchers can't also be operated, mounted on the flatbeds of softskins. An advantage with the LMS [unlike Javelin and Starburst which had 3 the Strastreak LMS only has 2 launchers] is that is can be carried onto the top of buildings and houses.

Starstreak has been around since the 1990's but apparently was only for sale to NATO countries. In South East Asia Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia [a former Starburst operator] have bought it.

What are your thoughts on a vehicle mounted gun system? A mini gun for the sheer volume of fire or a 30mm for the longer range?
For a vehicle gun system, I believe that the minimum calibre has to be 30mm. There are some good options available and with modern ammunition it's certainly effective. The longer the range the better because it gives you better reaction time and keeps the incoming target further away when it is destroyed. Western armies have neglected air defence, especially mobile AAA and VSHOR missile AD which is an absolute necessity. Some may think that a purely based missile AD is the way to go, but that's a fallacy because there's no backup when the missiles run out or the target is too small. It also comes down to cost. An all missile AD in a very target rich environment is going to quickly bankrupt a country. :cool:
 

swerve

Super Moderator
"when the missiles run out or the target is too small "
Indeed. Recce drones, for example: a missile may cost more than the drone, & if an enemy expects you to use missiles to shoot them down it can stock up with cheap drones (& some are very cheap) just to use up your missiles. I would in that situation.

"It also comes down to cost. An all missile AD in a very target rich environment is going to quickly bankrupt a country"
Spot on!
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Yes but does the army see it that way or will it instead rely on jammers and other soft means to deal with UASs, as a supplement to Starstreak?

Starsreak is expensive and there are not enough to adequately equip or suppott large number of field units. In the event the army goes for a Starsreak and auto cannon combo mounted on a platform, should still be a Royal Artillery asset which is attached to field units when on an ad hoc basis or should it be organic to certain units?

Also in addition to Starstreak/an auto cannon and a IR alerting device, should this platform also be mounted with a jammer or would that go on another vehicle? Something else which comes to mind, in an ideal world should't units be also euipped with ESM to detect the presence of UASs via their data links?
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The high cost of effective AD, ground and naval, is why laser AD is so attractive. Hopefully lasers can handle some of the workload wrt AD.
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Also in addition to Starstreak/an auto cannon and a IR alerting device, should this platform also be mounted with a jammer or would that go on another vehicle? Something else which comes to mind, in an ideal world should't units be also euipped with ESM to detect the presence of UASs via their data links?
If the platform carries a radar, which is necessary for reliable detection of flying targets, then it can also jam said targets' communications. It just has to be enabled by software.
In perhaps a conflicting trend with signature management in an age of advanced SIGINT, radars are becoming a standard equipment for AFVs.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
When you mention comms do you include data links in your definition?

So ideally, in the context of the present discussion, a vehicle would have Starstreak to engage UAS as high as 10/15,000 feet, a 30mm auto cannon to engage targets flying much lower and closer and a IR alerting device [ADADs] but it would not need a dedicated jammer because a radar with the proper software can jam a target's comns? Also do only dedicated search radats have the capability to jam.comms or also fire control radars?
 
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Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
When you mention comms do you include data links in your definition?

So ideally, in the context of the present discussion, a vehicle would have Starstreak to engage UAS as high as 10/15,000 feet, a 30mm auto cannon to engage targets flying much lower and closer and a IR alerting device [ADADs] but it would not need a dedicated jammer because a radar with the proper software can jam a target's comns? Also do only dedicated search radats have the capability to jam.comms or also fire control radars?
Let's build a radar, shall we?
First, we need some data to transmit - so we buy an FPGA. An FPGA is essentially a block of transistors, logic gates, logic components, and data storage components, from which we can build pretty much anything digital.
We make it transmit a strong signal in one frequency in set intervals, and receive and analyze between transmission intervals.

Then, we need to turn this from bits into radio frequency. So you buy a crystal, like the one in your watch, and an amplifier.

Finally, we need an antenna. AESA is the final word but it's essentially just chunks of metal arranged very neatly.
Our AESA is an array of 1,000 mini antennas that I can control from a computer. In this case, our FPGA.
Through sequencing the transmissions from those antennas, I can achieve all sorts of beam shapes and scan patterns.
I say the top 200 are going to search for targets, and will do that until the end of days.
Then 300 below it will focus on specific, located targets. They won't scan, just focus on the location where we found a target.
If we have missiles, we can let the radar guide them for a while. So 50 mini antennas are transmitting instead of one value, different values, this time modulated in some way, to create data.
The remaining 450 antennas can do other things. They can communicate information back and forth to friendlies, or they can intercept enemy comms.
In our project, we make them detect through power measurements the signals coming to the UAS, and then transmit utter gibberish in those same frequencies but with much more power than the enemy. And down he goes.


About 99% of this wall of text was me talking about how you can play around with certain hardware, but in the end it's just very simple hardware, most of which a civilian can buy on the market, or build DIY-style. How you play with it is what determines what it is, not how you built the metals.

For example, when we look at Russian air defense systems, they often have multiple radars even on the low level systems, where each radar has a set function. But when you look at western systems, you see that other than the highest tier ones, many are using what's called multi-function radars. Those are radars that are searching, tracking, and guiding, all at the same time.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
An interesting commentary by Francis Tusa


Highlights the troubled state the British Army find themselves in.
The Army needs to be severely defunded for the next few years. They receive about the same money for acquisitions as the Navy, yet are in such a sorry state (not that the navy's doing very well but they're comparatively better). They just don't use it as efficiently as they should be, and they first need to streamline their processes before more money is put into their current flawed and wasteful acquisitions processes.
 

Larso66

Member
I have read bits and pieces about upcoming changes to the British army. Reduction of Challenger regiments to three (I think) and now Future Soldier, where more battalions will be disbanded. Has there been significant pushback in the UK in the light of Russia's invasion of Ukraine? I seem to hear Boris Johnson promising security help to Eastern European countries but that must be tenuous if the army loses more capability? If this is covered in a different thread, please direct me appropriately.
 
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