Australian Army to increase by 2,600

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was told by a contact in Israel that not a few Israelis have been given contracts by Russian firms to share their expereince in converting aging tank hulls to heavy IFVs. Absolutely nothing official about this, but apparently Americans know since the Israelis come from companies that also do contract work for US DoD.
Apparently the Russians are getting ready for 'after Iraq' when their border will become the front line.
Cheers
Greg
I cannot see the need for Israel to give any input on what Russia performs in regards to using old tank hulls as heavy IFVs. They actually have a good program in place to modify T-72 hulls into what they call a urbanized IFV, it has a crew of five but will not carry any infantry, nomenclature for this vehicle is called BMP-T. Weapons consist of twin 30mm cannons, rocket launcher and grenade launchers, Russia designed this vehicle after the Checny wars due to the amount of T-72s and T-80`s that were lost. They are not concerned about the after Iraq struggle, they have major issues now that could escalate at any moment with some of the surronding states/countries.:)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I think you are talking about the BMPT which is not in IFV but a heavy tank support vehicle equipped with cannon, acouple of AGLs and MGs as well as (reportedly) a missile for breaching concrete structues.
There is also the SFV version based on BMP-3 called BMP-T, but this vehicle doesn't carry an infantry component.
Cheers
Greg
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Sorry, that wasn't clear at all! The T-72 modified vehicle is BMPT, which stands for Boyevaya Mashina Pod'derzhky Tankov or in English Fighting Vehicle for Support of Tanks.
The BMP-T is Boyevaya Mashina Pechoty - Tyazholaya or Fighting Vehicle Infantry - Heavy.
The later vehicle exists only as a commercial project as far as I know, whicle the former has been acquired in small numbers (under a dozen?).
Cheers
Greg
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think you are talking about the BMPT which is not in IFV but a heavy tank support vehicle equipped with cannon, acouple of AGLs and MGs as well as (reportedly) a missile for breaching concrete structues.
There is also the SFV version based on BMP-3 called BMP-T, but this vehicle doesn't carry an infantry component.
Cheers
Greg
Okay - you can call it BMPT and the U.S Army can call it BMP - T, and yes it does carry a Kornet missile launcher with the new thermaboric missile for taking out structures, it not only penetrates but after it enters the structure it sprays the insides of the room with metallic powder which is detonated by the oxygen that is in the structure causing one hell of a explosion. And the Russians are placing this vehicle within infantry combat units, they also have it on the commercial market, with INDIA having a interest in it.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
BMPT not BMP-T

"you can call it BMPT and the U.S Army can call it BMP - T"
No, I don't call it BMPT (БМПТ), the Russians call it that.

and yes it does carry a Kornet missile launcher with the new
thermaboric missile for taking out structures, it not only penetrates but after it enters the structure it sprays the insides of the
room with metallic powder which is detonated by the oxygen that is in the structure causing one hell of a explosion.

You are talking about the BMP-T which carries a single launcher forward in an exposed mount (but remote-fired). The BMPT has a quad remote louncher in an armoured box mounted on the left side of the turret.

And the Russians are placing this vehicle within infantry combat units, they also have it on the commercial market, with INDIA having a interest in it.
What is your source that the BMP-T has been deployed in infantry units? I wasn't aware of this, but only tha the "ministry of Defence is seriously considering" from manufacturer.
India is interested in everything.

Cheers
Greg
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
"you can call it BMPT and the U.S Army can call it BMP - T"
No, I don't call it BMPT (БМПТ), the Russians call it that.

and yes it does carry a Kornet missile launcher with the new
thermaboric missile for taking out structures, it not only penetrates but after it enters the structure it sprays the insides of the
room with metallic powder which is detonated by the oxygen that is in the structure causing one hell of a explosion.

You are talking about the BMP-T which carries a single launcher forward in an exposed mount (but remote-fired). The BMPT has a quad remote louncher in an armoured box mounted on the left side of the turret.

And the Russians are placing this vehicle within infantry combat units, they also have it on the commercial market, with INDIA having a interest in it.
What is your source that the BMP-T has been deployed in infantry units? I wasn't aware of this, but only tha the "ministry of Defence is seriously considering" from manufacturer.
India is interested in everything.

Cheers
Greg
They also have this warhead with their quad launcher , my source for this information on the this vehicle going in to inventory is the U.S Army Armor Branch, and yes India does have a interest in buying up advanced Russian arms which everyone in that regoin should be concerned about.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
my source for this information on the this vehicle going in to inventory is the U.S Army Armor Branch.
When did this happen! Late last year (I think November) they were still "considering" and a year later they are already deploying?

Can you elaborate on how the BTR-Ts fit into the battalion?

I don't think there needs to be much concern over India's arms race. I would rather they had thousands of tanks to rely on then 2-3 tactical nukes.

Cheers
Greg
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
When did this happen! Late last year (I think November) they were still "considering" and a year later they are already deploying?

Can you elaborate on how the BTR-Ts fit into the battalion?

I don't think there needs to be much concern over India's arms race. I would rather they had thousands of tanks to rely on then 2-3 tactical nukes.

Cheers
Greg
This vehicle actually has been around since 2001, they just couldn`t decide if they wanted to go with a single 30mm cannon or the twin version which I found out by a fellow forum reader that they had gone with the latter, which I did confirm. I do not have an exact date as to when it started going to units, but I can find out, they are possibly placing 10 of them in each Battalion as a attachement. You and I may think that it`s better for them to have thousands of tanks but her neighbors don`t.:)
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Ok I had a look around. You are right, the announcement was made in late 2005, but the acceptance of production vehicles did not begin until middle of 2006. The ATGMs are also reconfigured to 4 individual lounchers, in 4 quadrants of the turret (with twin cannons).
The deployment appears to be in two types. Field use is for one BMPT for every two tanks, so 15 in a standard 31 tank battalion. In urban combat there will be two BMPTs for every tank, so I would say 26 for a company of 13 (of a MRR).

Still not clear on the state of BMP-T (the light equivalent of above based on the BMP-3 chassis).
Cheers
Greg
 

eckherl

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ok I had a look around. You are right, the announcement was made in late 2005, but the acceptance of production vehicles did not begin until middle of 2006. The ATGMs are also reconfigured to 4 individual lounchers, in 4 quadrants of the turret (with twin cannons).
The deployment appears to be in two types. Field use is for one BMPT for every two tanks, so 15 in a standard 31 tank battalion. In urban combat there will be two BMPTs for every tank, so I would say 26 for a company of 13 (of a MRR).

Still not clear on the state of BMP-T (the light equivalent of above based on the BMP-3 chassis).
Cheers
Greg
I`ll find out about the light equivalent version, last I was informed that the Russians were producing BMP 3`s at a slow rate, so I would amagine that they do not have alot of chassis and hulls laying around, but you never know.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Current production rate for BMP-3s is two battalions per year. In November 2005 there was one battalion in production and two budgeted for in 2006.
There is also work being done to upgrade BMP-2s at a slow rate of "several tens" per year. The upgrade is armour and optics, as well as general overhaul.
This is for Russian Army. There are also production lines for export contracts.
Cheers
Greg
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Australian Army to increase by 2,600?

For the record I would like to point out that 10 pages later there had been a single post that substantively dealt with the thread subject through a lengthy quote from Paul Dibb's report.

So how are they going to do it? Manpower Defence Group has had recruitment contract for years, but has failed dismally in improving recruitment.

Adding 2,600 doesn't actually state the problem.

The problem is that the Australian Army is undergoing a change it had not been through since the 60s. The reason - we are at war.

2,600 is not solely for raising 3 battalions. That is the stated objective, but this number is wanted over and above the annual recruiting targets which have not been met for years (correct me if I'm wrong).

Having a "hardened, networked" Army is a bit more complicated then recruiting 3 extra battalions. 60% of the ADF's budget is spent on technology which requires a science degree to operate (or training to that effect) which means a retention of AT LEAST 8 years (4 years to train=investment; 4 years to contribute to use=return on investment). In fact it seems to me the actual return would be after 7 years because that is a single technology use cycle for a given system. Of course some systems, like the Leopards, have been around for a lot longer, so any service personnel recruited to service the M-1, and TWO are required for each tank over and above the crew, need to be ideally retained for at least 30 years.

Hoping for a turn-down in the economy doesn't help the Army. It may be true that recruiting escalates during higher level of unemployment, but this is only because the less skilled people seek an easy way out from unemployment. These people usually lack enough initiative to find work, so the Army faces a real job by not only training them to be riflemen, the least technologically challenging work in the Army, but to imbue them with sense of purpose and initiative - qualities often missing in the 'techos'. Has anyone ever tried changing a human being at 18-24 years of age while putting them through basic training? It seems to me the Training command NCOs should all get some sort of public recognition.

So in fact EVEN IF the Army is only looking to recruit 2,600 OVER AND ABOVE annual replacement needs to form three battalions, in fact they are looking to recruit far more because there is a rate of induction failure. Does anyone know what that is in Australia? In the US Army 15% fail basic training. This means we are looking for about 3,000 recruits.

How long does it take to make a great digger? In wartime, not so long, but in a war when only 600 are rotated through relatively 'safe' AOs (until Afghanistan), a lot longer. In general, in peace time, it takes at least 3 years to make an infantryman, and 6 to make a professional infantryman. How many NCOs will retire each of those 6 years and be replaced by longer-serving privates and be required to be replaced by new recruits? From memory I think its about 2% of the NCOs. However with raising of new units this means that MORE NCOs need to be created, and therefore more replacement recruits. each full battalion is 700 individuals for a total of 2100 for the three. Not all are infantrymen, but it seems to me about 80% are privates. Of course these will not be all raw recruits. Privates from existing units will form a skeleton for each of the new battalions to give it the 'moral fibre' of a formation.

Then there are officers. Each battalion needs about 30 officers at least. The Army is already missing quite a number of mid-grade officers, so finding an even 100 will not be so easy because many contribute to proper development of the very projects that have been discussed here and can not really be replaced through civilian recruitment. This means that of the remaining 590 recruits (2,600 - 2,010) 100 need to go to ADFA. Of these 100, 90 need to want to be Infantry Corps officers, therefore male, fit, and with the appropriate attitude of an infantry officer (not a 'techo' specialist in logistics, electronics or catering).

What of the 490 remaining recruits? Well, to enable the Army to support three extra battalions, the Army needs to provide them with all sorts of extra-battalion support. In modern armies this is usually at a rate of 1 service support recruit for every 2 combat recruits. The Red Army during WW2 got by with 1:3. Ordinarily this would mean that for 2,100 Regulars there would need to be 1,050 support recruits.

However they are the DIGGERS!!! Each Ozzy digger can do the job of two Russians never mind Americans ;) And if cricket is anything to go by, then it’s 12 Poms to one retiring Corporal :)

So HOW is the Army going to do this? Is there a plan, a tactic, a method, or technology? And mind you, we are alone with this dilemma because we have neither the population size of the US, nor the willingness to serve of the UK. Australia will get some Kiwis and Islanders in the recruitment drive, but not enough to matter.

Comments/ suggestions? :type

Cheers
Greg
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
For the record I would like to point out that 10 pages later there had been a single post that substantively dealt with the thread subject through a lengthy quote from Paul Dibb's report.

So how are they going to do it? Manpower Defence Group has had recruitment contract for years, but has failed dismally in improving recruitment.

Adding 2,600 doesn't actually state the problem.

The problem is that the Australian Army is undergoing a change it had not been through since the 60s. The reason - we are at war.

2,600 is not solely for raising 3 battalions. That is the stated objective, but this number is wanted over and above the annual recruiting targets which have not been met for years (correct me if I'm wrong).

Having a "hardened, networked" Army is a bit more complicated then recruiting 3 extra battalions. 60% of the ADF's budget is spent on technology which requires a science degree to operate (or training to that effect) which means a retention of AT LEAST 8 years (4 years to train=investment; 4 years to contribute to use=return on investment). In fact it seems to me the actual return would be after 7 years because that is a single technology use cycle for a given system. Of course some systems, like the Leopards, have been around for a lot longer, so any service personnel recruited to service the M-1, and TWO are required for each tank over and above the crew, need to be ideally retained for at least 30 years.

Hoping for a turn-down in the economy doesn't help the Army. It may be true that recruiting escalates during higher level of unemployment, but this is only because the less skilled people seek an easy way out from unemployment. These people usually lack enough initiative to find work, so the Army faces a real job by not only training them to be riflemen, the least technologically challenging work in the Army, but to imbue them with sense of purpose and initiative - qualities often missing in the 'techos'. Has anyone ever tried changing a human being at 18-24 years of age while putting them through basic training? It seems to me the Training command NCOs should all get some sort of public recognition.

So in fact EVEN IF the Army is only looking to recruit 2,600 OVER AND ABOVE annual replacement needs to form three battalions, in fact they are looking to recruit far more because there is a rate of induction failure. Does anyone know what that is in Australia? In the US Army 15% fail basic training. This means we are looking for about 3,000 recruits.

How long does it take to make a great digger? In wartime, not so long, but in a war when only 600 are rotated through relatively 'safe' AOs (until Afghanistan), a lot longer. In general, in peace time, it takes at least 3 years to make an infantryman, and 6 to make a professional infantryman. How many NCOs will retire each of those 6 years and be replaced by longer-serving privates and be required to be replaced by new recruits? From memory I think its about 2% of the NCOs. However with raising of new units this means that MORE NCOs need to be created, and therefore more replacement recruits. each full battalion is 700 individuals for a total of 2100 for the three. Not all are infantrymen, but it seems to me about 80% are privates. Of course these will not be all raw recruits. Privates from existing units will form a skeleton for each of the new battalions to give it the 'moral fibre' of a formation.

Then there are officers. Each battalion needs about 30 officers at least. The Army is already missing quite a number of mid-grade officers, so finding an even 100 will not be so easy because many contribute to proper development of the very projects that have been discussed here and can not really be replaced through civilian recruitment. This means that of the remaining 590 recruits (2,600 - 2,010) 100 need to go to ADFA. Of these 100, 90 need to want to be Infantry Corps officers, therefore male, fit, and with the appropriate attitude of an infantry officer (not a 'techo' specialist in logistics, electronics or catering).

What of the 490 remaining recruits? Well, to enable the Army to support three extra battalions, the Army needs to provide them with all sorts of extra-battalion support. In modern armies this is usually at a rate of 1 service support recruit for every 2 combat recruits. The Red Army during WW2 got by with 1:3. Ordinarily this would mean that for 2,100 Regulars there would need to be 1,050 support recruits.

However they are the DIGGERS!!! Each Ozzy digger can do the job of two Russians never mind Americans ;) And if cricket is anything to go by, then it’s 12 Poms to one retiring Corporal :)

So HOW is the Army going to do this? Is there a plan, a tactic, a method, or technology? And mind you, we are alone with this dilemma because we have neither the population size of the US, nor the willingness to serve of the UK. Australia will get some Kiwis and Islanders in the recruitment drive, but not enough to matter.

Comments/ suggestions? :type

Cheers
Greg
Despite the pessimestic outlook above. Infantry recruited at 84% ABOVE it's target for 05/06.

Hence 1RAR having to run it's own IET courses and the other battalions about to commence same.

There is a veritable INFLUX of recruits at present and the School of Infantry can't keep up...

Bodes well...
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
What was the target?
What is the retention rate if not too secret?
How does that work with budgeting?!
(trying not to sound too surprised):unknown
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
What was the target?
What is the retention rate if not too secret?
How does that work with budgeting?!
(trying not to sound too surprised):unknown
Don't know. The article was in Army Newspaper and focussed on the aspects of 1RAR having to conduct all aspects of the IET course, something new as some of the DS hadn't even served at School of Infantry.

The retention rate is released yearly. You'd need to search the annual reports, but it's the TRULY big problem of our manning issues. Reducing the rate of experienced staff leaving is a more pressing issue than new recruits.

I daresay the budget has been supplemented to cope with the additional recruits, ie: more training resources, probably more staff at 1 RTB etc...
 
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