Aussie Bushfires.

[t68]

Just watching the news RAN evacuation currently taking place of the coast of Vic missed where they actually were.

 

[Redlands18]

HMAS Choules and MV Sycamore have arrived off Malacoota and will begin evacuating people on Friday morning.

 

[MickB]

Am I the only one who feels the tone of the questions asked by our news outlets comes across as critical of both the ADF and Firefighters?
Many questions seem to involve perceived lack of assets allocated or slow response times.

One would hope for more support men and women doing a tough job in dangerous situations.

 

[weedyau]

Yes MickB, the culture of blame.
Here in Queensland if you buy a house on a flood plain and you get flooded, it is SEQ Water's fault for mismanaging water releases.
Around the country we are now seeing the results of poor planning by individuals and multiple government agencies, combining with terrible weather conditions.
The most important thing to note is how critical fuel supplies are. Imagine a real interruption of supply to the whole of Australia.

 

[Wombat000]

The most important thing to note is how critical fuel supplies are. Imagine a real interruption of supply to the whole of Australia.

Yep. Its a localised example of the upheaval that would impact the nation.
Feeding restricted fuel supplies to dispersed areas in the vast continent for civilian transport and facilitating fossil fuel energy generation would be a diabolically challenging task.

from an ADF strategic perspective, the sooner we transition from fossil fuel and energy nodes to dispersed local renewable energy solutions, and alternate fuelled civilian vehicles the better.
It would also preserve what fuel stocks we did have for the ADF, without having to share it with the wider population.

 

[seaspear]

I read that evacuees were told that ropes would be required to board the Choules is this something that should of been addressed beforehand for these scenarios
Nearly 1,000 people begin evacuation from fire-ravaged Mallacoota

 

[ngatimozart]

@MickB, @weedyau, & @Wombat000, I've moved your posts here from the ADF thread because this is the more appropriate thread for such a discussion.

Am I the only one who feels the tone of the questions asked by our news outlets comes across as critical of both the ADF and Firefighters?
Many questions seem to involve perceived lack of assets allocated or slow response times.

One would hope for more support men and women doing a tough job in dangerous situations.

I don't get to watch much Aussie news coverage so can't give an accurate critique, but I do watch the ABC news coverage live on the interwebby thingy usually in the arvo with she who must be obeyed. The journos I've seen on that haven't appeared to be critical of the fireys or the ADF. They've been more critical of the PM and State Authorities. Seven & Nine don't appear to stream their news live, so I only can access snippets. I do think that the journos and public at large haven't realised the magnitude of the fires and how they have stretched capabilities of the responders. NSW RFS have been fighting bushfires since what September / October and it takes its toll on personnel and gear. Some I note, especially on social media, have been asking why hasn't the ADF deployed personnel on the ground to fight the fires, but they forget or don't understand that the ADF have to be invited by the State authorities first. One thing did get up my nose though and it's semantics, was journos saying that Choules was docked off Mallacoota. Jeez I saw the jetty at Mallacoota on the interwebby and if Choules docked at that, the jetty would've gone the way of the Norwegian Blue Parrot. From the video Choules was anchored offshore. Idjits.

Yes MickB, the culture of blame.
Here in Queensland if you buy a house on a flood plain and you get flooded, it is SEQ Water's fault for mismanaging water releases.
Around the country we are now seeing the results of poor planning by individuals and multiple government agencies, combining with terrible weather conditions.
The most important thing to note is how critical fuel supplies are. Imagine a real interruption of supply to the whole of Australia.

That is a bug bear of those who work in the field of natural hazards, and we have people here in NZ who go to court to get local council rulings overturned so that they can stay where they are and / or have natural hazard information removed from their land information memorandums, so that their property values won't be affected. A classic case are those who live on the coast and their land erodes due to high energy wave action in storms etc. They then want councils and govt to spend heaps of money to protect their property from the sea, and whinge like hell when the councils and govt refuse to do so. Some people pile rocks creating a rock wall to stop the erosion, but all that happens is that the wave action undercuts the rocks and exacerbates the erosion either side of the rock wall. In the end they either have to, or will have to, retreat from the location.

Yep. Its a localised example of the upheaval that would impact the nation.
Feeding restricted fuel supplies to dispersed areas in the vast continent for civilian transport and facilitating fossil fuel energy generation would be a diabolically challenging task.

From an ADF strategic perspective, the sooner we transition from fossil fuel and energy nodes to dispersed local renewable energy solutions, and alternate fuelled civilian vehicles the better.
It would also preserve what fuel stocks we did have for the ADF, without having to share it with the wider population.

I think that after this disaster has passed and the subsequent debriefs, an enquiry should be held so as to draw out the learnings from it and act on any recommendations that the enquiry makes. Looking forward, this will not be an isolated incident and I would suggest that there needs to be a single concise organisation that operates across all levels, Commonwealth, State, & Shire to command, coordinate and respond, that has the power and ability to call on the capabilities of Commonwealth, State & Shire to deal with the disaster / emergency, look after the effected populace, their safety, basic necessities - food water & accommodation, welfare etc. This should be enshrined in Commonwealth law, superseding any State laws, and the funding open-ended for the duration; maybe something like NZ's National Emergency Management Agency (Ministry of Civil Defence). That's my 1 cents worth.

 

[ASSAIL]

We have that pesky thing called a Constitution which details specific Commonwealth powers and gives everything else to the States and Territories.
The C’wealth can’t just assume powers such as you mention without a referendum.
However, there can be voluntary agreements but the States are loathe to handover any power without some compensatory arrangements and this is further complicated by governments of different persuasions at various levels.
In other words, something that seems so sensible becomes a horse trading cluster.

 

[ngatimozart]

I read that evacuees were told that ropes would be required to board the Choules is this something that should of been addressed beforehand for these scenarios
Nearly 1,000 people begin evacuation from fire-ravaged Mallacoota

Yes I would presume they would most like have to hold on to ropes as they boarded the ship from the boats. If so it's safety SOP. This is not a scenario either, its an actual HADR operation and it will have been addressed in the safety briefing given to the refugees before they boarded the boats. The RAN is well practised in the art of HADR and transferring personnel from boats to ships at sea, both when the ships are underway and when they are stopped or at anchor as is the Choules in this case.

 

[ngatimozart]

We have that pesky thing called a Constitution which details specific Commonwealth powers and gives everything else to the States and Territories.
The C’wealth can’t just assume powers such as you mention without a referendum.
However, there can be voluntary agreements but the States are loathe to handover any power without some compensatory arrangements and this is further complicated by governments of different persuasions at various levels.
In other words, something that seems so sensible becomes a horse trading cluster.

Then maybe the time for a referendum on this then.

EDIT: Actually we did a sensible thing in NZ back in the late 1800s. We got rid of our Provincial govts and in early 1900s we politely said no to an invite to join the Australian Federation. Then after WW2 a wily PM convinced our Upper House to dissolve itself.

 

[ASSAIL]

I read that evacuees were told that ropes would be required to board the Choules is this something that should of been addressed beforehand for these scenarios
Nearly 1,000 people begin evacuation from fire-ravaged Mallacoota

I think that was for boarding Sycamore. She loaded first and is on her way to Hastings.

 

[ngatimozart]

I think that was for boarding Sycamore. She loaded first and is on her way to Hastings.

Yep, must've been Sycamore. This item has video of refugees boarding Choules earlier today, using the steel beach in the welldock.

 

[oldsig127]

I think the deployment of Choules to evacuate Mallacoota is going to add weight to a quick decision on the 3rd LHD or its alternative. I wonder why defence choppers aren’t used in the fire bombing role? Park a LHD a few kms off shore and used as a fire base?

NSW Deputy Fire Commissioner telling a journalist in single sylable words that "we have already got more fire fighting aircraft than we can safely have in the air simultaneously" and "the ADF has been providing helicopter support since October" may provide a clue. Premier Berejiklian (sp?) and others behind him were looking a bit fed up with stupid questions, but they're fair enough coming from the usual utterly Defence ignorant press.

(ABC News24 rolling coverage today)

oldsig

 

[At lakes]

This bun fight is starting all over again. Three fire fronts have joined, I think the term is they have sucked each other in. now we have a fire front approx., 60 to 70 kms wide. Its tracking south being pushed by a strong northerly. There is a predicted change due about midnight, but I am not sure if its midnight tonight or midnight tomorrow night. Check out the link and you will see what I mean.

https://emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/

 

[ngatimozart]

This bun fight is starting all over again. Three fire fronts have joined, I think the term is they have sucked each other in. now we have a fire front approx., 60 to 70 kms wide. Its tracking south being pushed by a strong northerly. There is a predicted change due about midnight, but I am not sure if its midnight tonight or midnight tomorrow night. Check out the link and you will see what I mean.

https://emergency.vic.gov.au/respond/

I think that it's midnite tonight that things were said to change but according to the BOM fire warning video it looks like tomorrow during the day that the winds pick up before the change.

 

[John Fedup]

Then maybe the time for a referendum on this then.

EDIT: Actually we did a sensible thing in NZ back in the late 1800s. We got rid of our Provincial govts and in early 1900s we politely said no to an invite to join the Australian Federation. Then after WW2 a wily PM convinced our Upper House to dissolve itself.

Canada should be so lucky! Fewer provinces and no Senate, absolutely!

 

[Todjaeger]

We have that pesky thing called a Constitution which details specific Commonwealth powers and gives everything else to the States and Territories.
The C’wealth can’t just assume powers such as you mention without a referendum.
However, there can be voluntary agreements but the States are loathe to handover any power without some compensatory arrangements and this is further complicated by governments of different persuasions at various levels.
In other words, something that seems so sensible becomes a horse trading cluster.

At some point, Australia might have to enact some sort of national emergency powers to enable a response at a national level for a major incident or disaster (natural or otherwise), particularly if the area impacted crosses state or territory borders.

In the US, responses start at the local level, then scale up as the scope and resources demand. Following the flustercuck that was the response to Hurricane Katrina 15 years ago (has it really been that long?!), the US starting paying a bit more than 'lip service' to some of the common operating issues with responses involving multiple agencies and jurisdictions. While I certainly hope the damage and especially the casualties (people as well as local flora and fauna) are minimal, a thorough after action and review of what worked, what did not, what issues were encountered and how they were resolved is done, with changes and adjustments made before the next situation. Because there will be another.

As a side note, having been a responder in a few large scale natural disasters, quite a few times things were made up as we went along because prior disaster plans either failed, or situations occurred which the plan just did not anticipate or cover.

 

[ASSAIL]

At some point, Australia might have to enact some sort of national emergency powers to enable a response at a national level for a major incident or disaster (natural or otherwise), particularly if the area impacted crosses state or territory borders.

In the US, responses start at the local level, then scale up as the scope and resources demand. Following the flustercuck that was the response to Hurricane Katrina 15 years ago (has it really been that long?!), the US starting paying a bit more than 'lip service' to some of the common operating issues with responses involving multiple agencies and jurisdictions. While I certainly hope the damage and especially the casualties (people as well as local flora and fauna) are minimal, a thorough after action and review of what worked, what did not, what issues were encountered and how they were resolved is done, with changes and adjustments made before the next situation. Because there will be another.

As a side note, having been a responder in a few large scale natural disasters, quite a few times things were made up as we went along because prior disaster plans either failed, or situations occurred which the plan just did not anticipate or cover.

The US has more leeway for action during such crisis. Their Constitution, Federal State relationship is the opposite to Australia’s.
In the US States are given the “specific” powers and everything else is Federal so for natural disaster operations the Feds move in early without the worry of bruising state egos.

There is a “National Bushfire Plan” agreed by all the Australian jurisdictions. They share air assets and other infrastructure but it’s funded by the Feds and states equally on an ad hoc basis, hopefully this will improve after these fires as it has proven to be inadequate.
All is not totally disfunctional and in particular the Volunteer Firefighters have been magnificent.

 

[t68]

Knowing our luck in Australia the fires will break under flood conditions and pollute the waterways it’s either feast or famine here only about 3/4 years ago I saw my son car float away in Picton NSW

 

[Redlands18]

The PM has just announced a major increase in ADF support including
HMAS Adelaide
3000 reserves called out on compulsory full time service for the duration(thats approx 1/5 of total ADF reserves)
3 more Chinooks
1 C-17
2 C-130s
3 C-27s
Major General Elwood to take command of ADF deployment
4 more large Water Tankers leased including 2 DC-10s

this is taken from a News conference, so no link available at this time.

ADMIN EDIT: Video of announcement. NG.