Argentine navy future

Ananda

The Bunker Group
It will depends on political uproar that come out after this incidents. i do believe if they do nothing substantial to come out on reasoning after this, they can say 'bye-bye' to submarine forces..

Reading on media, seems the Argentinian government will be under domestic political pressure to come out with explanation.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
It will depends on political uproar that come out after this incidents. i do believe if they do nothing substantial to come out on reasoning after this, they can say 'bye-bye' to submarine forces..

Reading on media, seems the Argentinian government will be under domestic political pressure to come out with explanation.
I dont know if somethings has changed for the Argentine submarine fleet.
But i just read this news article:
"

Argentina restarts talks with Naval Group for Gowind OPVs
Jose Higuera, Santiago - Jane's Navy International
02 February 2018
Negotiations with Naval Group started in early 2016 and the Macri administration attempted to order the OPVs, worth EUR300 million (USD374 million), last year, but economic, public, and political pressures stalled the talks.
"
Complete article at: Argentina restarts talks with Naval Group for Gowind OPVs | Jane's 360

Sounds like a good plan, but how serious can we take this? I have the feeling that many Argentine 'political correctly politicians' want to keep the Argentine Armed Forces as weak as possible. Politicians who dont care about the state of their armed forces and soldiers are actually a wordwide problem.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
In the 1980s, Argentinean politicians saw their own armed forces as the biggest threat to national security, & with good reason. That mistrust is diminishing, & the current government is far less prone to it than the Peronists, but some of it still lingers. It's nothing to do with 'political correctness', but a residue of hard experience.

And what external threats does Argentina face? They can honestly argue that Argentina's highest priorities for military & paramilitary expenditure should be more fisheries protection & more border surveillance, which can be done by giving new equipment to the coastguard (Prefectura Naval Argentina), & the Gendarmerie (Gendarmería Nacional Argentina), which is responsible for the borders. Oh, & a few fighters to guard against suicidal nutters in civilian aircraft.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Agree, and IIRC, Chile back in the Falkland War period was the only country that had negative attitudes towards Argentina. AFAIK, this is no longer the case.
 

JFoulke

Member
The only second-hand carrier which might be available soon is HMS Invincible. Somehow, I don't see her being sold to Argentina. Any other country, maybe. And anyway, she's STOVL-only, & there aren't any STOVL fighters for sale at the moment..
Theoretically ofter 2022, when the new italian LHD Trieste (33.000 tons Stovl Carrier) http://milex.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Trieste-1024x554.png will be finished, the older Giuseppe Garibaldi will be sold... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...baldi_(C_551)_underway_on_19_January_1996.jpg

The ship has been modernized in 2013, has a decent speed being powered by 4 GE-avio Turbine LM2500 and with a range of 13.000 Km with low operational costs, I think it would fit well into the Argentinian Navy because has good ASW capabilities and also Amphibian assault capabilities.
It's armed with 3 CIWS 40mm Breda Dardo, 2 torpedo tubes and 2 ground to air missile systems.
Seeing that the italians has planned to retire/sell all of it's harriers before 2022, Argentina could buy the ship and from 6 to 10 still capable aircrafts plus 5-6 grounded aircrafts for spare parts.
The ship is a 14.000 tons carrier and can carry up to 18 aircrafts between planes and helicopters, the classical arrangement on this ship is 6 harriers and helicopters.

This ship has shown his worth during the Kosovo War, with it's harriers taking part in 30 sorties for a total of 70 hours shoring some kills.
His air wing shined during the Operation Enduring Freedom between 2001 and 2002 with it's Harriers taking part in 288 missions for a total of 850 hours.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Theoretically ofter 2022, when the new italian LHD Trieste (33.000 tons Stovl Carrier) http://milex.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Trieste-1024x554.png will be finished, the older Giuseppe Garibaldi will be sold... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Aircraft_carriers_USS_America_(CV-66)_and_Giuseppe_Garibaldi_(C_551)_underway_on_19_January_1996.jpg/1024px-Aircraft_carriers_USS_America_(CV-66)_and_Giuseppe_Garibaldi_(C_551)_underway_on_19_January_1996.jpg

The ship has been modernized in 2013, has a decent speed being powered by 4 GE-avio Turbine LM2500 and with a range of 13.000 Km with low operational costs, I think it would fit well into the Argentinian Navy because has good ASW capabilities and also Amphibian assault capabilities.
It's armed with 3 CIWS 40mm Breda Dardo, 2 torpedo tubes and 2 ground to air missile systems.
Seeing that the italians has planned to retire/sell all of it's harriers before 2022, Argentina could buy the ship and from 6 to 10 still capable aircrafts plus 5-6 grounded aircrafts for spare parts.
The ship is a 14.000 tons carrier and can carry up to 18 aircrafts between planes and helicopters, the classical arrangement on this ship is 6 harriers and helicopters.

This ship has shown his worth during the Kosovo War, with it's harriers taking part in 30 sorties for a total of 70 hours shoring some kills.
His air wing shined during the Operation Enduring Freedom between 2001 and 2002 with it's Harriers taking part in 288 missions for a total of 850 hours.
Giuseppe Garibaldi has been in service for 32.5 years, the new LHD Trieste is not due till the mid 20's if they hold onto to her till then she going to cost a lot to refit let alone find spare parts for her, as for the Harriers good luck with that one
 

JFoulke

Member
Giuseppe Garibaldi has been in service for 32.5 years, the new LHD Trieste is not due till the mid 20's if they hold onto to her till then she going to cost a lot to refit let alone find spare parts for her, as for the Harriers good luck with that one
Not really, the Trieste is said to be finished in 2022, so the Garibaldi will be 37 years old, the Sao Paolo has been in service for 57 years, so it would be more than capable even without an entire refitting.
The first two Harriers got by the Italians entered service in 1991, so, if you buy the latest 6 entered in service it will be more than capable, more than that, the other 6 spare planes will be the 2 already grounded + the 4 oldest that will be considerable less expensive to use for spare parts...
Just for compareson, the Etandard and the F-4 already in service with the Argentinian are way way older.

The most important thing is that, the Garibaldi is able also to carry up to around a thousand soldiers for amphibious assault and can be used as mid way refuel base for helicopters to land more troops, in an hypothetical new invasion of the Falklands (as people has mentioned before in this post) it would be really an important assets.

So, the Garibaldi would be way younger than the São Paulo, the harriers would be much newer than the majority of the Argentinian aircrafts, and also could be used to deploy troops quickly
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Finished as in commissioned of finished as in construction done but then still got possible outfitting, testing, trials all of which can take years its self. As for using other ships as a comparison it isn't so straight forward. How well has the electrical's kept up? How good is the machinery? How much of the hull has corroded away over the years? HMAS Tobruk was just over 34 years in active service when retired and part's of her hull where down to 1mm in thickness. There is no set standard for ships and how long they will last. Usually you can guarantee 30 years or so, After they its any ones guess so really shouldnt be making the assumption that one ship serving X amount or time will mean all ships can.

That aside the Sao Paulo is a bad example as its service has been riddled with accidents, rebuilds and overhauls. Not exactly a poster child for old ships.
 
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weegee

Active Member
"The first two Harriers got by the Italians entered service in 1991, so, if you buy the latest 6 entered in service it will be more than capable, more than that, the other 6 spare planes will be the 2 already grounded + the 4 oldest that will be considerable less expensive to use for spare parts...
Just for compareson, the Etandard and the F-4 already in service with the Argentinian are way way older."

This to me would be the sticking point! Harriers are English!!!! No way the UK would give the ok for the sale of the Harriers? Sure buy planes that has our I.P and then try and take over islands we both claim are ours haha would not happen in a month of sundays.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Theoretically ofter 2022, when the new italian LHD Trieste (33.000 tons Stovl Carrier) http://milex.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Trieste-1024x554.png will be finished, the older Giuseppe Garibaldi will be sold... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Aircraft_carriers_USS_America_(CV-66)_and_Giuseppe_Garibaldi_(C_551)_underway_on_19_January_1996.jpg/1024px-Aircraft_carriers_USS_America_(CV-66)_and_Giuseppe_Garibaldi_(C_551)_underway_on_19_January_1996.jpg

The ship has been modernized in 2013, has a decent speed being powered by 4 GE-avio Turbine LM2500 and with a range of 13.000 Km with low operational costs, I think it would fit well into the Argentinian Navy because has good ASW capabilities and also Amphibian assault capabilities.
It's armed with 3 CIWS 40mm Breda Dardo, 2 torpedo tubes and 2 ground to air missile systems.
Seeing that the italians has planned to retire/sell all of it's harriers before 2022, Argentina could buy the ship and from 6 to 10 still capable aircrafts plus 5-6 grounded aircrafts for spare parts.
The ship is a 14.000 tons carrier and can carry up to 18 aircrafts between planes and helicopters, the classical arrangement on this ship is 6 harriers and helicopters.

This ship has shown his worth during the Kosovo War, with it's harriers taking part in 30 sorties for a total of 70 hours shoring some kills.
His air wing shined during the Operation Enduring Freedom between 2001 and 2002 with it's Harriers taking part in 288 missions for a total of 850 hours.
No. Just, no...

I will try and be nice about this, but the poster either ignored or is ignorant of a number of realities.

The first is that while Argentina would probably like to have the capabilities that the Giuseppe Garibaldi could provide the Argentine Navy, under the present circumstances the Argentine Navy cannot afford those capabilities. Further, even if the vessel and associated kit was gifted to Argentina, it still could not afford them. If the first two issues could be resolved, there are still the very real issues that such a sale/gift would require approvals from other nations, and given the history of Argentina the likelihood of such approvals are remote, at best. If by some miracle the first three issues could be resolved, the Argentine Navy still could not make effective use of such a large & high value asset, because the rest of the Argentine Navy is too decrepit to provide the escort and support capabilities needed. Argentine Navy vessels rarely go out to sea due to parts issues, kit being obsolete, munitions expired, and as a result personnel lack training and the opportunities to build up experience. Part of this is due to issues with funding, and part of this is due to restrictions on what can be exported to Argentina.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
"The first two Harriers got by the Italians entered service in 1991, so, if you buy the latest 6 entered in service it will be more than capable, more than that, the other 6 spare planes will be the 2 already grounded + the 4 oldest that will be considerable less expensive to use for spare parts...
Just for compareson, the Etandard and the F-4 already in service with the Argentinian are way way older."

This to me would be the sticking point! Harriers are English!!!! No way the UK would give the ok for the sale of the Harriers? Sure buy planes that has our I.P and then try and take over islands we both claim are ours haha would not happen in a month of sundays.
The Italian Harriers were built in the USA, but AFAIK yes, the UK can still veto their sale.
 

JFoulke

Member
Finished as in commissioned of finished as in construction done but then still got possible outfitting, testing, trials all of which can take years its self. As for using other ships as a comparison it isn't so straight forward. How well has the electrical's kept up? How good is the machinery? How much of the hull has corroded away over the years? HMAS Tobruk was just over 34 years in active service when retired and part's of her hull where down to 1mm in thickness. There is no set standard for ships and how long they will last. Usually you can guarantee 30 years or so, After they its any ones guess so really shouldnt be making the assumption that one ship serving X amount or time will mean all ships can.

That aside the Sao Paulo is a bad example as its service has been riddled with accidents, rebuilds and overhauls. Not exactly a poster child for old ships.
There is a lot of other ships that are older/same age of the Garibaldi and for sure won't be retired before 2022:
USS Nimitz*, entered service in 1975 (in 2022 will be 47 years)
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower*, entere service in 1977 (in 2022 will be 45 years)
USS Carl Vinson*, entered service in 1982 (in 2022 will be 40 years)
EX- Admiral Gorskov / INS Vikramaditya, entered ervice in 1982 (in 2022 will be 40 years)
There is also ships already retired (but that are in reserve) but that has served for much more than what will have done the Garibaldi in 2022. (the garibaldi has entered service in 1985 and in 2022 will be 37 years)
USS Kitty Hawk, entered service in 1961 and entered the reserve status in 2009, that means 48 years of service
EX HMS Centaur / INS Viraat, entered service in 1953 and entered the reserve status in 2009, that means 56 years of service

* these are Super Carriers and I don't want to compare the capabilities of these ships with the Garibaldi, but seeing that are Super Carriers, for sure they are way more expensive and hard to maintain compared to a small STOVL carrier, even if the new Ford class are entering the see trials i relly don't see any of these carriers retired bofore 2022

No. Just, no...

I will try and be nice about this, but the poster either ignored or is ignorant of a number of realities.

The first is that while Argentina would probably like to have the capabilities that the Giuseppe Garibaldi could provide the Argentine Navy, under the present circumstances the Argentine Navy cannot afford those capabilities. Further, even if the vessel and associated kit was gifted to Argentina, it still could not afford them. If the first two issues could be resolved, there are still the very real issues that such a sale/gift would require approvals from other nations, and given the history of Argentina the likelihood of such approvals are remote, at best. If by some miracle the first three issues could be resolved, the Argentine Navy still could not make effective use of such a large & high value asset, because the rest of the Argentine Navy is too decrepit to provide the escort and support capabilities needed. Argentine Navy vessels rarely go out to sea due to parts issues, kit being obsolete, munitions expired, and as a result personnel lack training and the opportunities to build up experience. Part of this is due to issues with funding, and part of this is due to restrictions on what can be exported to Argentina.
Obviously Argentina, in it's current state wouldn't be able to maintain a ship like the Garibaldi, and won't for a long time with this political mind set.
Argentinia would be able to afford it if a militaristic mind set is again at the lead of the political part of the country like back when the Falklands war was fought.
If a greater cut of the nation GDP is put in the renovation of the navy they would be able to have a good bunch of vessels capable of escorting a STOVL Carrier.

Isn't completelly true, the ship is completelly built in Italy with italian tech, so as long as no italian politician is against the selling and that at least half+1 EU nations is ok with this selling it would be done, considering that by 2022 UK will be out of the EU it's a bit easier.
NATO could have some problem with this selling, but after an hardware is put out of service it's not under NATO jurisdiction anymore.

"The first two Harriers got by the Italians entered service in 1991, so, if you buy the latest 6 entered in service it will be more than capable, more than that, the other 6 spare planes will be the 2 already grounded + the 4 oldest that will be considerable less expensive to use for spare parts...
Just for compareson, the Etandard and the F-4 already in service with the Argentinian are way way older."

This to me would be the sticking point! Harriers are English!!!! No way the UK would give the ok for the sale of the Harriers? Sure buy planes that has our I.P and then try and take over islands we both claim are ours haha would not happen in a month of sundays.
Unfortunately, the Harriers bought by the italians where made in the USA, with american tech, so they are the only ones that could stop this selling, UK could have stopped it if UK would still be a EU member in 2022
 

swerve

Super Moderator
US-built Harriers include many British-built parts, & a lot of British IP. The UK can refuse permission for their sale. Every Pegasus engine was made by Rolls-Royce in Derby.

Garibaldi's gas turbines were made in Italy - but are General Electric LM2500s.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
There is a lot of other ships that are older/same age of the Garibaldi and for sure won't be retired before 2022:
USS Nimitz*, entered service in 1975 (in 2022 will be 47 years)
USS Dwight D. Eisenhower*, entere service in 1977 (in 2022 will be 45 years)
USS Carl Vinson*, entered service in 1982 (in 2022 will be 40 years)
EX- Admiral Gorskov / INS Vikramaditya, entered ervice in 1982 (in 2022 will be 40 years)
There is also ships already retired (but that are in reserve) but that has served for much more than what will have done the Garibaldi in 2022. (the garibaldi has entered service in 1985 and in 2022 will be 37 years)
USS Kitty Hawk, entered service in 1961 and entered the reserve status in 2009, that means 48 years of service
EX HMS Centaur / INS Viraat, entered service in 1953 and entered the reserve status in 2009, that means 56 years of service

* these are Super Carriers and I don't want to compare the capabilities of these ships with the Garibaldi, but seeing that are Super Carriers, for sure they are way more expensive and hard to maintain compared to a small STOVL carrier, even if the new Ford class are entering the see trials i relly don't see any of these carriers retired bofore 2022



Obviously Argentina, in it's current state wouldn't be able to maintain a ship like the Garibaldi, and won't for a long time with this political mind set.
Argentinia would be able to afford it if a militaristic mind set is again at the lead of the political part of the country like back when the Falklands war was fought.
If a greater cut of the nation GDP is put in the renovation of the navy they would be able to have a good bunch of vessels capable of escorting a STOVL Carrier.

Isn't completelly true, the ship is completelly built in Italy with italian tech, so as long as no italian politician is against the selling and that at least half+1 EU nations is ok with this selling it would be done, considering that by 2022 UK will be out of the EU it's a bit easier.
NATO could have some problem with this selling, but after an hardware is put out of service it's not under NATO jurisdiction anymore.



Unfortunately, the Harriers bought by the italians where made in the USA, with american tech, so they are the only ones that could stop this selling, UK could have stopped it if UK would still be a EU member in 2022
Several important bits to remember. One of the first, regarding the age of warships, is age is relevant when considering what the intended or designed service age is/was supposed to be. USN carriers have & are planned for 50+ years of operation and service. Some of what that means is that structural portions of the vessel are designed to be robust, and/or easily repairable/replaceable. A vessel with an intended service life of only 20 - 30 years is unlikely to have such robust construction or the ability to inspect, repair, or replace some of the structural elements after 30+ years because the expectation would be that the ship would be decommissioned by then.

It is also worth noting where a vessel was designed to operate and under what conditions. I would imagine the weather and sea conditions along portions of Argentina, especially southern Argentina by Tierra del Fuego is a good deal colder and rougher than would normally be encountered in the Mediterreanean Sea, which does not have an equivalent to either the Roaring Forties, or the Furious Fifties and the associated wind and sea/wave conditions. While the heating and cooling systems could be modified to handle the temperature conditions if the existing systems are not optimized for what Argentina would see, modifying the vessel to handle 40+ knot winds and 8 m high waves is another matter.

As for the ability actually sell the ship (or any other piece of military kit), it depends on what parts and components the vessel or vehicle contains, and who owns the IP and/or manufactured it. In the case of the Giuseppe Garibaldi, even if all the parts and components were manufactured in Italy, a number of the parts were either licensed production of contain foreign IP. The GE LM2500 GT's as already mentioned are US designs, as is the AN/SPS-52 radar, AN/SLQ-25 Nixie torpedoe decoy, Mk-29 box missile launchers, and so on. Now it is possible that all systems which would require foreign approval could be removed, but that would end up increasing the cost, because funding would need to be spent on the removal, and then even more funding spent on selecting, installing and then integrating an equivalent replacement.

As for suggesting that Argentina change how and why it funds the armed forces the way it does so that it can afford a specific ship, I would suggest that if something as drastic as this was needed to support the idea put forward, then that illustrates how unrealistic the idea is. Since just after the Falklands War, the Argentine people have not been interested in permitting their military having or being able to seize power like the Argentine military had done several times historically. Further, the Argentine economy and gov't spending & debt has not been what would be described as 'healthy' which means that even if Argentina did want to raise defence spending (and risk more coups or the rise of another junta) there has not really been much room to do so.

Realistically it would take years of increased funding to either get the existing Argentine Navy vessels back into proper working order, or replace the vessels with newer, working vessels. Once the lack of functional vessels starts to get addressed, then crews can start to work on building up time at sea so they can make effective use of what they have. Consider this article on the state of the Argentine Navy back in 2013. It can take years to rebuild from such conditions, as it is not just a matter of repairing or replacing vessels, but the crews lack of training and experience means.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Argentina considers resuming nuclear submarine project | Jane's 360

Remember this is written in Janes so it must be true.

Argentina is considering recommencing construction of the sister ship to the San Juan ... which was sadly lost last year. The plan is to complete this boat as a nuclear variant.

The ASC should immediately head hunt the engineers working on converting a half-built 1980s era conventional sub into a nuclear submarine for its own submarine program.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
I scratch my head and covered my face with my palm when I read this on Jane's..

The last MRU job the local shipyard done to ARA San Juan, not only take 7 years to finish due to funding and lack of qualified man power (which Argentine admitted in media), but the quality result is questionable as shown in the lost of ARA San Juan before 3 years left MRU job.

Perhaps this is one of the strategy from Argentine Navy to put forward the projects then latter on shown it's not doable..then ask for funding new Submarine from overseas vendors..;)
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
It is possible Argentina is considering reactivating this program. It is possible, as crazy as it sounds.

Personally I don't think it will be viable unless a third party wants to assist funding it. Nuclear submarine, nuclear technology sharing etc.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
They do have a nuclear program. Australia bought a nuclear reactor off them.
Open-pool Australian lightwater reactor - Wikipedia

Australia wasn't the only ones..
INVAP - Wikipedia

Iran, Egypt, you know, completely legit users. They also struct a deal with Israel a while back..
Argentina and weapons of mass destruction - Wikipedia

If Argentina suddenly restarts its nuclear sub program I would assume someone is funding. Iran, Egypt, Saudis, UAE, China, Russia etc.

China seemed quite interested in Argentina. Building a reactor there.
Subscribe to read | Financial Times

There was also a deal (2018) with Russia with regard to uranium.

Argentina's nuclear sub program also isn't really about trying to build a viable SSN fleet. I think that is the last thing anyone wants, including those building it.
 
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