Afghanistan War

OPSSG

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Part 6 of 6: Understanding Afghanistan as a multi-focal civil war

21. Looks like the speed of fall of ANDSF is faster than expected and the arrival of a foreign contingent has tilted the fight in favour of the Taliban — a thousand of these foreign fighters have arrived in Baharak district from Pakistan.

22. Bill Riggio is spot on, with this reply to Afghan Government propaganda. The horror of the progressive fall of major cities in Afghanistan need not occur, if proper Afghan leadership is being provided.

(a) The Biden administration could have discarded the Doha agreement, just like it discarded other policies from the Trump administration. As I said, any attempt to "Blame Trump" for the drawdown speed Biden decided is absurd. Biden has clearly stated that he wanted out. His staff needs to own the withdrawal.​
(b) Taliban forces now control 65% of Afghanistan territory, are threatening to take 11 provincial capitals and are trying to deprive Kabul of its traditional support from national forces in the north, a senior EU official says. As reported by CNN, Kandahar is now Besieged on a 'Taliban-made island.' Despite the dismal prognosis, don’t expect Biden to have a change of heart. If anything, he has steeled himself anew against sending U.S. troops back into the fray.​
23. Reporting from Kabul, CNN’s Clarissa Ward says Afghan President Ashraf Ghani is now urging citizens to essentially "enlist with your local warlord" to fight the Taliban. Dostum is literally the hope for millions caught by Taliban offensives, where they rape, loot and execute including prisoners. The liberal press and their strange concerns is misplaced. In the proper context, this is such a silly statement by a CNN reporter.
24. A 2012 CSIS report entitled “Avoiding Creeping Defeat in Afghanistan: The Need for Realistic Assumptions, Strategy, and Plans,” highlights the critical problems in the American strategy, the way it is implemented, reporting on progress in the war and Transition, and the lack of credible plans for the future. It identifies the following key areas where plans made ignore the fundamental realities shaping the war:
  • Pakistan is not a real ally and will not become one.
  • The US cannot fully defeat al Qa’ida or the threat of Islamist extremist terrorism in Afghanistan.
  • There is little prospect of a meaningful, stable, and negotiated settlement with the Taliban and Haqqani Network.
  • The US, its allies, and the ANSF cannot establish security across Afghanistan or even in all of the “critical” districts by end of 2014, or at any predictable point thereafter.
  • Development of the Afghan security forces now focuses on rushing towards unobtainable numbers of forces, without regard to effectiveness.
  • Transition alone will not convert Afghanistan into a developed, functional democracy with effective governance, civil rights, and rule of law.
  • Progress in governance lags far behind need, and governance is not representative of local needs and priorities.
  • Hopes for major coordinated efforts at regional development are a dysfunctional façade.
25. IMO, the Taliban need to thank the absurdity and incompetence of the two Afghan Presidents for their rapid battlefield victory. I also don’t understand how Biden can believe that one day the Taliban can be brought into a political solution. Instead, the Taliban laid in wait to strike. On 11 Aug 2021:

(a) Taliban capture the city of Faizabad in northern Afghanistan, the 9th provincial capital to fall to the insurgents in less than a week; and​
(b) an armored Humvee packed with explosives was driven against Helmand police HQ in Lashkar Gah, the Taliban’s suicide bomber detonated his vehicle packed with explosives; and 15 members of Afghan police were wounded in the suicide car bomb attack.​
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
I get it that after failing to achieve quite a few of its political objectives in Afghanistan and after losing a lot of men (the Afghans too have paid a very heavy price) and having expended a lot resources with no favourable end in sight: the Americans wanted out.

Statements however by Biden on the Afghans needing to unite and fight however are silly given that various groups are united with the Kabul government (despite its numerous follies/flaws) in fighting the Taliban. Also; given that highly short sighted and flawed decisions (the list is well documented and quite a long one) made by the Americans contributed to the current cockup; America has an obligation to continue supporting the Kabul government indefinitely.

Statements about American air power being available for the moment or until future notice (link provided in my previous post) isn’t what the Afghans need to hear. In the coming months are we going to hear about proposals to cut aid to Afghanistan (echoes of South Vietnam)? American credibility is on the line ... It’s supposed to be better than its non democratic strategic competitors Russian and China....

Lest it be forgotten it was the Americans which started peace talks years ago while keeping its Afghan ally in the dark; leading to complaints by Kabul. This after once confidently declaring that there would never be talks with the Taliban and that there was absolutely no place for the Taliban in a future Afghanistan. As Chuck Horner once said : a country which put unlimited faith in the U.S. once had a capital called Saigon ... (Santoli’s “Leading The Way”).

The Taliban strategy of attacking on a broad front is working. The highly overstretched Afghan government only has so many units with a high level of combat effectiveness and they can only do so much. The anti Taliban forces obviously havs lost the initiative to the Taliban; whether it regains remains to be seen.
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OPSSG

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Staff member
Short reply to STURM to add thoughts on a possible pivot

Statements however by Biden on the Afghans needing to unite and fight however are silly given that various groups are united with the Kabul government (despite its numerous follies/flaws) in fighting the Taliban. Also; given that highly short sighted and flawed decisions (the list is well documented and quite a long one) made by the Americans contributed to the current cockup; America has an obligation to continue supporting the Kabul government indefinitely.

Statements about American air power being available for the moment or until future notice (link provided in my previous post) isn’t what the Afghans need to hear. In the coming months are we going to hear about proposals to cut aid to Afghanistan (echoes of South Vietnam)?
1. I don’t agree that a withdrawal means American credibility is on the line. Let me provide 3 reasons, for your consideration:
One, history provides plenty of examples of American politicians being shameless. This shows their ability pivot in a manner the locals don’t expect — the 1975 fall of Saigon, Ronald Reagan’s decision to withdraw troops after 1983 Beirut barracks bombings, Bill Clinton’s 1993 withdrawal from Somalia and Barack Obama’s 2011 withdrawal from Iraq have proved this point historically — Tehran’s Ayatollah and his IRGC were forced to allow the Iraqi government to invite the Americans back, to fight ISIL, after the Fall of Mosul in Jun 2014. Sectarian polarization caused the Shia-dominated government of al-Maliki to be a ‘failed state’ in Sunni Arab areas. By 14 Aug 2014, al-Maliki agreed to step down as prime minister of Iraq to allow Haider al-Abadi to take his place. In Aug 2014, Obama announced that American forces conducted targeted airstrikes against terrorists (that was later named Operation Inherent Resolve). And this time Iraqi Shiites who are in the majority), know that following Tehran’s sectarian path does not bring peace or development.​
Two, Afghans and the Biden administration are also frustrated with President Ghani — refusing to keep troops in Afghanistan is a means to an end — getting change to occur. Beyond corruption, Ghani was openly engaged in nepotism in a manner that alienated the power base to resist the Taliban advance. For 9 years, Americans avoided the creeping defeat identified in the 2012 CSIS report and tolerated President Ghani and his equally corrupt predecessor Karzai. Biden has finally said enough was enough. "This is an Afghan strategy that they have to execute" as per the Pentagon Press Secretary on Kabul's plans to stabilize the country in face of the Taliban offensive.​
Three, the competing core interests in Afghanistan is between Muslim countries like Iran and Pakistan. They cannot expect to be long term beneficiaries of American pain.​

2. The fluid situation has resulted in active discussions about a further drawdown of the US Embassy in Kabul, according to sources familiar with the discussions. Taliban gains have occurred much more rapidly than many US officials expected. U.S. intelligence now assesses that the Taliban could isolate Afghanistan's capital Kabul in 30 days and potentially take it over in 90 days. Details of the assessment, which included analysis from U.S. Central Command, Defense Intelligence Agency and CIA, were first reported by The Washington Post. Still, some in government are wary of the findings. “It doesn’t sound right. It runs the other way of how [the administration is] briefing,” said one Senate staffer. “The Taliban need another fighting season.”

3. But recent fighting in support of Afghan President Ashraf Ghani indicates “the warlords are still with Ghani. So long as that’s the case, it’ll take more than a month for the Taliban to take Kabul by force.” That’s not all. Two people familiar with the contents of a classified briefing for senators Monday said administration officials argued the decision confronting President Biden came down to sending more troops to stabilize Afghanistan or continuing the U.S. withdrawal from the country.

The Taliban strategy of attacking on a broad front is working. The highly overstretched Afghan government only has so many units with a high level of combat effectiveness and they can only do so much. The anti Taliban forces obviously havs lost the initiative to the Taliban; whether it regains remains to be seen.
4. Turkey is still intent on running and guarding Kabul airport after other foreign troops withdraw from Afghanistan, but is monitoring the situation after rapid advances by Taliban forces, two Turkish officials told Reuters. Which means they intend to have a vote in the future of Afghanistan.

5. It is correct for President Ghani to hold crisis talks in Mazari Sharif with ethnic Uzbek leader Abdul Rashid Dostum and prominent ethnic Tajik leader Atta Mohammad Noor about defending the city. They are the ones who hold the key to helping the Afghan government survive for another fighting season.

(a) Before this meeting, President Ghani adopted the mistaken policy of tolerating Taliban presence in rural areas, and attempting to coexist — when the mainly Pashtun Taliban clearly do not intend to coexist with the Uzbeks and the Tajiks. As others have noted, the history of U.S. negotiations with the Taliban going back to 2010 is farcical. Even now, as the jihadis rampage into Afghanistan’s cities, the U.S. is still pretending there is viable diplomacy. There is no “peace process.”​
(b) It seems that the Afghan led #SanctionPakistan social media campaign has had an impact on Pakistan. But would campaigning for sanctions against Pakistan really stop the Taliban’s conquest of Afghan cities and towns? Pakistan is host to 1.4 million Afghans, and it allows over flight of American fighters and bombers to provide air support for the ANSDF to fight the Taliban. The Pakistani government is not in full control of its borders, as it is non-monolithic nation of 200.3 million Muslims (or 96.5%) and 16.3 million non-Muslims. A significant number of Pakistanis oppose their own oppressive military establishment and the ISI's destabilizing role in Afghanistan.
(c) The bigger problem is that President Ghani is not able to retain honest men, including Afghanistan’s acting finance minister Khalid Payenda who just resigned. Khalid Payenda revived the MoF by repatriating some of its best talents, filling all key positions and embarked on a budget reform. He simplified payment processes by abolishing allotments (reduced the steps from 18 to 4), and made electricity checks and salary payment possible. After he introduced electronic customs processing and addressed organizational issues in customs, the border posts fell to the Taliban.​
6. There is shame to be shared by NATO’s political leaders but MORE SHAME to the local actors who abused billions of foreign aid meant for war-affected Afghanistan. Ironically, these corrupt and inept parasites often pose themselves as patriots — spamming others for pointing out the truth.

7. The removal of the country's army chief, Lt. Gen. Wali Mohammad Ahmadzai may be over due and by now too late to reverse matters (only lasting 53 days). Maj. Gen. Hibatullah Alizia has been appointed as new Chief of Armed Forces of Afghanistan; and Maj. Gen. Sami Sadat has been appointed as commander of commando corps on 11 Aug 2021 — I am not sure if it is by design but President Biden’s team is indirectly forcing the hand of:
(a) the incompetent and corrupt Afghan government to do the essentials. This will force the unreliable and corrupt Pashtun faction in Ashraf Ghani’s government in Kabul to work with what I call the Northern Alliance 2.0 —this will result in more power for the Uzbek and the Tajik communities — a much needed regional reform (that would have never happened if the Americans did not conduct a withdrawal) due to Ashraf Ghani’s government in Kabul; and​
(b) Iran and Turkey to consider giving weapons to the Northern Alliance 2.0 — when both these countries have an agenda that does not align with American interests.​
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
What would be very surprising is if things got worse and certain neighbouring countries did not provide aid to anti Taliban forces; as they did in the past. What’s important is keeping the Taliban at bay; to the benefit of these countries, which unlike the Americans will be directly impacted by a Taliban takeover. Ethnicity also plays a part; Iran and Uzbekistan will cast a protective eye over the Hazaras and Afghan Uzbeks.

I would also be very surprised if some level of aid is not forthcoming from Russia. Russia’s main worry has traditionally been trouble spilling over into the former Soviet Central Asian republics and eventually making its way into the Caucasus.
 
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ngatimozart

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Verified Defense Pro
Some officials in Washington are giving between 90 days and 9 months before Kabaul falls to the Taliban. TBH the way that the Taliban are gaining ground I would think 90 days is closer to the time of the fall.


Whilst, it is being suggested that the Kabaul government is busy accusing Pakistan of supporting the Taliban in order to divert attention from its own failings. Given the history of the Kabaul government this wouldn't surprise me.

 

STURM

Well-Known Member
There is absolutely no doubt that Pakistan has a hand in events (as it has long had) but for a variety of reasons the Taliban is less reliant on the Pakistanis compared to the past. It’s also overlooked that a Taliban victory in the long term could also led to a variety of issues for Pakistan in the long run. The Pakistanis desire a Taliban they can control completely; they’ve learnt a long time ago this isn’t possible.

The American assessment did come with the caveat that things might change. Personally I feel that although things are certainly doom and gloom at the moment; the Taliban is still a long way from actually taking the whole country - could be wrong though.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member

A look at the top Talibs. I detest them and personally felt they should be hung, quartered and drawn but at the same time one has to give it to them. Despite all that was thrown at them in firepower, technology and other resources; they held on; survived and have come to where they are now.

Meanwhile Al Jazeera has reported that an offer has been made to share power with the Taliban. This is exactly what they have been wanting and fighting for so long. The question really is that they know they hold the initiative: why even bother to negotiate with a weak and desperate Kabul government which itself is uncertain as to how much American aid/support it can count on in the long run? As it’s always been: time is on the side of the Taliban.


As I mentioned before things - on the surface - are taking similar to 1996; let’s hope we won’t hear about the Salang Pass and Bagram falling and large ANA units or anti-Taliban groups defecting: this would mean that Kabul’s itself is threatened.

An intesting piece. Unfortunately Part 1 is unavailable.


“An unnamed senior U.S. official who served as a civilian in Afghanistan told government interviewers it was fast becoming obvious that Obama’s surge strategy between 2009 and 2011 had been a mistake. Instead of flooding the country with 100,000 U.S. troops for 18 months, he said, it would have been better to send one-tenth the number — but leave them in Afghanistan until 2030.”

“You can create stability with boots and money, but the question is, will it hold when you leave?” he said. “Given our desire to ramp up quickly and leave quickly, there was no reasonable threshold we could reach where we could leave behind good governance.”
 
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SABRE

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Verified Defense Pro
Meanwhile Al Jazeera has reported that an offer has been made to share power with the Taliban. This is exactly what they have been wanting and fighting for so long. The question really is that they know they hold the initiative: why even bother to negotiate with a weak and desperate Kabul government which itself is uncertain as to how much American aid/support it can count on in the long run? As it’s always been: time is on the side of the Taliban.


Another question is, who is offering the power sharing deal? There seem to be factions within Afghan government.

As I mentioned before things - on the surface - are taking similar to 1996; let’s hope we won’t hear about the Salang Pass and Bagram falling and large ANA units or anti-Taliban groups defecting: this would mean that Kabul’s itself is threatened.
I am unaware of defections to Taliban right now but there are reports of Afghan military officials having made deals with the Taliban in advance for safe passage in exchange of them surrendering their territories.

“An unnamed senior U.S. official who served as a civilian in Afghanistan told government interviewers it was fast becoming obvious that Obama’s surge strategy between 2009 and 2011 had been a mistake. Instead of flooding the country with 100,000 U.S. troops for 18 months, he said, it would have been better to send one-tenth the number — but leave them in Afghanistan until 2030.”
It was always obvious that much like rest of Obama's foreign policy his Afghan policy was full of blunders.
 

OPSSG

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Staff member
Biden decision to handover Afghanistan to the Taliban

1. The US State Department is urging all US citizens to leave the country "immediately," and the Pentagon announced it will send an additional 3,000 troops to assist in US diplomats' departures and evacuations. Meanwhile, the US government is also considering moving its embassy to Kabul airport. Apparently, the Biden administration doesn't want a replay of the iconic images of the hasty evacuation of the US Embassy in Saigon in 1975.

2. David Sedney, former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia under President Barack Obama, said the U.S. withdrawal sent a message to allies. 'The lesson here is that nobody should trust the United States, whether it’s Ukraine or Vietnam or Taiwan or any country,' he told Bloomberg.
(a) I don’t agree with what David Sedney said because Ukraine, Vietnam and Taiwan are not US allies. But Biden’s decision making does impact the geo-political calculus of real allies like Australia, Japan, South Korea, UK, and other members of NATO. For countries who sent troops to support US forces in Afghanistan, like Azerbaijan, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, UAE, and NZ, this is an unnecessary slap on their face.​
(b) Almost 80% of Afghanistan’s US$11 billion budget is covered by international donors. Of the almost US$4.3 billion that is required to fund Afghanistan’s security forces in 2021, the Afghan govt contributes just US$610 million, 24% of Afghanistan’s total estimated domestic revenue. At this time, Afghanistan is the 9th most corrupt in the world — the country is ranked 165 out of 180 countries — gaining 3 spots over 2020 — in the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) by Transparency International. Back in 2014, former ISAF Commanding General John Allen was not hyperbolic when he told US Congress that corruption, not the Taliban, was the existential threat to the Afghan government.​
(c) Except for idiots in the Philippines, no US ally is going to threaten to cancel their security treaty with the US but this Biden decision leaves a bad taste in their mouths. Biden decision to handover Afghanistan to the Taliban seems like such a waste of money donated by NATO and countries who made troop contributions over the years.​

3. If members of President’s own party and the mainstream CNN, MSNBC and Bloomberg start calling things for what they are, a Biden decision to complete the handover Afghanistan to the Taliban before September 11, 2021, then Biden has a domestic political problem — blow back for his decision that he must own.
 
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Feanor

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Staff member
Biden decision to handover Afghanistan to the Taliban

1. The US State Department is urging all US citizens to leave the country "immediately," and the Pentagon announced it will send an additional 3,000 troops to assist in US diplomats' departures and evacuations. Meanwhile, the US government is also considering moving its embassy to Kabul airport. Apparently, the Biden administration doesn't want a replay of the iconic images of the hasty evacuation of the US Embassy in Saigon in 1975.
Apparently the Brits are also sending 600 troops. And the comparison with Saigon is already in the air, it's nearly impossible to avoid. That having been said, the comparison with Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan would also be very unfavorable to the US...

2. David Sedney, former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Afghanistan, Pakistan and Central Asia under President Barack Obama, said the U.S. withdrawal sent a message to allies. 'The lesson here is that nobody should trust the United States, whether it’s Ukraine or Vietnam or Taiwan or any country,' he told Bloomberg.
(a) I don’t agree with what David Sedney said because Ukraine, Vietnam and Taiwan are not US allies. But Biden’s decision making does impact the geo-political calculus of real allies like Australia, Japan, South Korea, UK, and other members of NATO. For countries who sent troops to support US forces in Afghanistan, like Azerbaijan, Jordan, Kuwait, Malaysia, UAE, and NZ, this is an unnecessary slap on their face.​
Yes but some of them, like Ukraine, like to think of themselves as US allies in fact if not in treaty. Of course Vietnam doesn't fall into the same category as Taiwan or Ukraine. It's at best a US partner and even that is a very tentative link. I think the Phillipines would be a more apt comparison, if it weren't for the fact that they are also themselves to blame for their predicament.

(b) Almost 80% of Afghanistan’s US$11 billion budget is covered by international donors. Of the almost US$4.3 billion that is required to fund Afghanistan’s security forces in 2021, the Afghan govt contributes just US$610 million, 24% of Afghanistan’s total estimated domestic revenue. At this time, Afghanistan is the 9th most corrupt in the world — the country is ranked 165 out of 180 countries — gaining 3 spots over 2020 — in the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) by Transparency International. Back in 2014, former ISAF Commanding General John Allen was not hyperbolic when he told US Congress that corruption, not the Taliban, was the existential threat to the Afghan government.
I mean... sort of. Except that even if it this corrupt, the Taliban would still pose an existential threat. A US-led NATO effort hasn't defeated the Taliban in 20 years. It seems very unlikely Afghanistan would be able to do it themselves unless it was a very different kind of Afghanistan to begin with.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
Another question is, who is offering the power sharing deal? There seem to be factions within Afghan government.
Good question. Even if the Kabul government unanimously agrees to a power sharing deal; the various warlords/militias (namely the non Pashtuns) will probably not. Also the question of what follows after a power sharing deal; will the Taliban be contend to share power (unlikely) or will it continue with attempts to eventually take over the whole government?

The thing about the Taliban - of its any consolation - is that it has never been interested in spreading its ideology beyond the country”s borders; unlike AQ and IS. Whether thus will change remains to be seen - doubt it. A rare occasion when Afghan rebels actually attacked a target on foreign soil was when a faction attempted attacks on Soviet targets in Uzbekistan. With CIA support mujahideen crossed a river and distributed Korans across the border - part of the resistance against the Soviets and wasn’t driven by ideology per see. After a Soviet warning; such “activities” ceased.

I am unaware of defections to Taliban right now but there are reports of Afghan military officials having made deals with the Taliban in advance for safe passage .
Such deals are part and parcel: the way things have long been done. In 1996 when the Taliban sprang out of nowhere and advanced rapidly (helped by 4x4s supplied by benefactors in the Gulf); many deals were made. Even under the Soviet occupation various deals were made between the Mujahideen and the Soviets and the Afghan government - mutually beneficial.

It was always obvious that much like rest of Obama's foreign policy his Afghan policy was full of blunders.
I would go a step further and point out that U.S. policy as a whole in Afghanistan was highly flawed and short thinking from the very onset (the lack of a holistic long term socio/economic plan and later focus on Iraq doomed things from the start); not to mention Middle East policy which has been highly flawed and self defeating for decades.

The one thing Obama did right was not to strike Iran; like a number of allies were urging. It would have created mote instability in an already unstable region; would not have solved the Iranian issue (unless one shares the delusional view that Iran and only Iran shares all or much of the blame for a lot of things) and in the long term would not have contributed to U.S national interests.
 
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Hone C

Active Member
Good question. Even if the Kabul government unanimously agrees to a power sharing deal; the various warlords/militias (namely the non Pashtuns) will probably not. Also the question of what follows after a power sharing deal; will the Taliban be contend to share power (unlikely) or will it continue with attempts to eventually take over the whole government?
Hard to see any Taliban interest in power sharing at this point. Although the Western political establishments seemingly managed to convince themselves the Taliban offensives were attempts to gain negotiating leverage, they seem well poised to conquer the country.

The Taliban have the west, and it's likely government resistance in the north and south is close to collapse. Rumours have Lashkar Gah already overrun.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Some officials in Washington are giving between 90 days and 9 months before Kabaul falls to the Taliban. TBH the way that the Taliban are gaining ground I would think 90 days is closer to the time of the fall.


Whilst, it is being suggested that the Kabaul government is busy accusing Pakistan of supporting the Taliban in order to divert attention from its own failings. Given the history of the Kabaul government this wouldn't surprise me.

The speed of the Blitzkrieg carried out by the Taliban reminds me of the extreme fast one carried out by the ISIS in Iraq. Not much resistance by the government forces, local people brutally executed and brand new advanced weapon systems falling into the hands of barbarians.

I am afraid that the Taliban doesn't even need 90 days to conquer whole Afganistan, i am not surprised if they will do it in less than 30 days.

I am not go to say that Operation Enduring Freedom ends up in a total failure and that the whole ISAF-program is a waste of money and human lives.....but actually it is.


Now the Talibananas got their hands on some ScanEagle UAVs.




Update:
Kandahar has fallen, after Ghazni and Herat. Tarin Kowt (capital of the Uruzgan province) will probably be lost soon too.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
The speed of the Blitzkrieg carried out by the Taliban reminds me of the extreme fast one carried out by the ISIS in Iraq. Not much resistance by the government forces, local people brutally executed and brand new advanced weapon systems falling into the hands of barbarians.
It’s actually reminiscent of 1996 when they swept to power. Many similarities ...

“Blitzkrieg” would not be an accurate term to use as it refers to combined arms manoeuvre type of warfare; heavily backed by air power. It was also a term never used by the Germans themselves: believed to have been coined by a journalist.

Call them “barbarians” or whatever else you wish (natural to demonise those we dislike/detest) but we must not overlook the key fact that they enjoy a lot of local support from communities or individuals which don’t necessarily subscribe to their ideology. With regards to atrocities; no doubt but then nearly all sides (foreign and local) have committed them.

Since we’re on the subject of Taliban atrocities: the last Afghan communist President was offered a lift out of Kabul by Masoud’s fighters. As a nationalist Pashtun however he refused to be seen retreating with Tajiks. He was eventually dragged out of his compound with his brother; beaten, castrated and hung from a lamppost.
 
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Hone C

Active Member
Call them “barbarians” or whatever else you wish (natural to demonise those we dislike/detest) but we must not overlook the key fact that they enjoy a lot of local support from communities or individuals which don’t necessarily subscribe to their ideology.
IMO a large part of this support is precisely the corruption that OPSSG has previously mentioned.

Defeating the Taliban militarily was never the issue, it was lack of a viable political alternative that could gain the trust and support of the Afghan populace. Western troops could hold the line against the insurgency but never defeat the Taliban shadow government that was often more efficient and less corrupt than the Kabul government.

Also similar to the situation prior to 1996 and the warlords that led to the Taliban's rise.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Although the Western political establishments seemingly managed to convince themselves the Taliban offensives were attempts to gain negotiating leverage, they seem well poised to conquer the country.
I doubt if anyone was actually under the illusion that the Taliban was really interested in peace. It was a sign of desperation by the U.S. to try and salvage things as best as possible; knowing that the Afghan government was in a precarious situation.

On their part what did the Taliban have to lose? Keep negotiating whilst also fighting and pushing things as far as they can go; in the knowledge that the Americans were out and had no more political will.

American air strikes have been far less effective compared to with IS. The Taliban move in much smaller groups; they have less heavy equipment; less vehicles; plus the terrain.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
IMO a large part of this support is precisely the corruption that OPSSG has previously mentioned.
A larger part of it is because the Kabul government is seen as a tool of foreign powers; in many areas the Taliban have provided a more effective form of governance; ethnic/tribal reasons; having suffered directly at the hands of the Americans or Kabul government; etc.

Defeating the Taliban militarily was never the issue, it was lack of a viable political alternative that could gain the trust and support of the Afghan populace
It was the lack of a “what after” plan; a coordinated, sustained, holistic plan to improve things socially and economically. Defeating a much weather opponent is much easier than nation building which militaries want to avoid. The highly flawed assumption the country would rebuild itself with foreign aid naturally but without the need for actual “nation building”; this in a country devastated after decades of war; with weak institutions; a government which has traditionally had a weak presence outside Kabul; one heavily divided along ethnic lines and one vulnerable to neighbouring interference.

On defeating the Taliban; they certainly weren’t invincible but they did play their cards correctly; helped them survive against all the fire power, technology and other resources the world’s super power and its allies hurled at them.

Also similar to the situation prior to 1996 and the warlords that led to the Taliban's rise.
Indeed. As I’ve pointed out a few times: eerily similar to 1996. Signs to watch out for are Bagram and the Salang Pass falling. Statements by the Americans and plans to evacuate their embassy are also hardly assuring to its Afghan allies which to be fair; aren’t totally to blame.
 
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Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I was thinking a few weeks ago that the Taliban's advance could be like that of ISIL in northern Iraq. People just fleeing their posts rather than trying to fight.

There must be a huge temptation in a conservative Muslim country as a man to think "well the Taliban won't cause me trouble if I stay out of their way, I can just grow my beard and keep my head down". There are some who may want to fight for the sake of their female relatives and because they recognise how brutal the Taliban are, but if you've got a fight-or-flight response that might not be enough. Especially if you're working for a very corrupt government as OPSSG has pointed out.

Compare and contrast with the Kurds and how they had much more backbone against ISIL. A different culture and women actively fighting on the front lines (and not being murdered for getting a job).

As for the US, my gut feeling is that everyone in NATO and the G7 is pretty much fed up with Afghanistan, so Biden will largely get away with this. They don't want the Taliban in charge but they will accept that Biden wanted out and they might have done the same in his situation. Then the ongoing global pandemic means that there will be less media attention on this that there would otherwise be.

The result may be that Washington gets pushed to make firmer defence commitments in areas that matter. But Biden has already been moving towards doing that anyway in places like East Asia.

It's easy to forget that the US lasted 20 years in Afghanistan when the Soviets stayed around half that. Could the US have stayed even longer? Almost certainly. But I suppose the question is, what was the end game? Would staying another 5-10 years have changed the final outcome?

Biden may take a domestic hit but I think no one here was betting the farm on him winning a second term. And does the US public really want America staying in Afghanistan for another decade?
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
I was thinking a few weeks ago that the Taliban's advance could be like that of ISIL in northern Iraq. People just fleeing their posts rather than trying to fight.
I tend to see mote comparisons with 1996. Also despite their rapid successes the Taliban are facing string resistance; unlike with IS faced little little effective resistance until much later against Shia militia groups and Iranians.

Especially if you're working for a very corrupt government as OPSSG has pointed“
Indeed but corruption is merely one of several factors why many would support the Taliban.

Compare and contrast with the Kurds and how they had much more backbone against ISIL.
The key difference is that the Kurds were mainly fighting against Arabs: which whom they are ethnically different. The Taliban are Pashtuns and and are facing other Pashtuns with which they have a lot in common. For a variety of reasons; other Pashtuns are sympathetic with the Taliban and are anti Kabul government and foreign forces.

There was also no ambiguity with IS: the Kurds knew what to expect.

Would staying another 5-10 years have changed the final outcome?
No; especially when it’s already failed in securing its set political objectives and when victory over the Taliban is elusive or unobtainable as ever. The sad thing is that all this wasn’t preordained: had the right policies been put in place in the 2001-2005 period; it wouldn’t have come to this. Not speaking with the benefit of hindsight as it was crystal clear then a is now.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
American air strikes have been far less effective compared to with IS. The Taliban move in much smaller groups; they have less heavy equipment; less vehicles; plus the terrain.
Unlike Daesh the Taliban are not as arrogant and have been fighting against forces using airpower for five decades. So they are well versed in manoeuvring under the observation of enemy airpower. Like you say they also have the terrain to their advantage and they know how to use it.
 
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