Admiral Kuznetzov class

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Salty Dog

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Also noticeable is the comparatively small size of the airgroup that can be seen on the flightdeck. There may, of course, be more aircraft in the hangar but I suspect that the total airgroup that can be efficiently operated is only around 20/25, quite small considering the size of the ship. This would reinforce the comments made by several posters concerning the inefficiency of STOBAR operations.
I would also suspect that Russia has very few qualified carrier pilots.

The Med cruise (even if short) was the first in many years and no doubt it was important to be in the worldwide news to make a statement. Any accidents or incidents on this cruise would have been catastrophic.

Of other importance internally, it would boost the morale of the Russian Navy which has not been the blue water force it was since the Cold War and break-up of the USSR.
 

Salty Dog

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Whats the status of the YAK 41M, is it operational and if so does anyone have any info re its capabilities? Some of the stuff i've read says that only a prototype was built, and then other stuff says itsoperational on the Kut.
The Yak-41 was a supersonic capable V/STOL follow-on to the Yak-38 employed on the Kiev class cruiser-carrier. Never got past RDT&E stage most likely to budget as well as eventual decomm of the Kiev class.

The Yak-41M was to be the land based version for the Air Force.
 

gf0012-aust

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I agree. There is a work-around for STOBAR MTOW (and even used for CATOBAR).

Your aircraft can take-off with a full weapons load, albeit with a light fuel load. Once airborne, you top-off from another aircraft with buddy stores or a land based tanker. I do not know if Russia has a buddy stores capability.
The problem is that this does not improve or positively change the impact of lower volley, package form up rates and thus coherent package to target issues. It gives a better rate for the STOBAR carrier, but it does not make it any more competitive against CTOL as other mission parameters still stay in the red.
 

vivtho

New Member
I agree. There is a work-around for STOBAR MTOW (and even used for CATOBAR).

Your aircraft can take-off with a full weapons load, albeit with a light fuel load. Once airborne, you top-off from another aircraft with buddy stores or a land based tanker. I do not know if Russia has a buddy stores capability.
Russia does have a buddy refueling capability, at least on the Flanker family.
 

funtz

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The buddy- buddy refueling pod, is it really that much of an effort to install it? The Russian pod is called UPAZ, right?

This site seems to have a pic of a SU-33 to SU-33 buddy refueling

View attachment 2393

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-27k.htm

and here is the vid:
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/su-33-flanker-d-video

At 1:45 the you tube vid seems to have this:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHSccMZqRkw"]YouTube - Sukhoi Su-33 Flanker-D, "Admiral Kuznetsov" Aircraft Carrier[/ame]

Is the effort of installing-operating-maintaining catapults on a carrier that complex (technically-economically), as to justify a less effective compromise?
 
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vivtho

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The buddy- buddy refueling pod, is it really that much of an effort to install it, for it to be worth talking about? The Russian pod is called UPAZ, right?
From what I've heard, carrying and using the buddy refueling pods is not a major task, involving only modifications to the aircraft's fuel management system. Modern FMS (even on smaller fighters) are capable of handling this job even without any modifications.

Is the effort of installing-operating-maintaining catapults on a carrier that complex (technically-economically), as to justify a less effective compromise?
Currently, the only catapults available are those powered by steam. This requires a large amount of the onboard volume and power to generate the steam (always done near the engine/reactor room, pump it, store it and finally blast it :) ). The tanks and pipes occupy a large amount of volume and require frequent maintenance.

The power of the catapult has to be manually adjusted every time a different aircraft type needs to be launched (you wouldn't use the launch power used for a light fighter like a F-8 Crusader to launch a heavy aircraft like an E-2 Hawkeye).

So, if you have a small(er) carrier to start with, skipping the catapults would look like a good idea.

However, this situation might change in the future when electromagnetic catapults enter service on the next generation of US super-carriers. Since they are all electric, all those huge steam pipes can be avoided. At the same time they can launch much heavier aircraft.
 

Chrom

New Member
USSR missille carriers like Kuznezov designed as pure air-defence assests. Strike function is done by ship-to-ship AShM's. As such taking off with full MTOW is not quite nessesary in most cases. It was okish concept in early 80x, but now it is ofc absolote.

The main idea was to add fighter cover component to naval battle group AD and also provide cover for strategic bombers strike like Tu-22M3. For anti-ship kills such naval BG intendend to use big AShM like "Bazalt" and "Granit" with ranges 550-700km and direct satellite target acquisition, smart "swarm" mode, etc. Such ranges allowed even longer and much, much faster strike reach than comparable air-wing on f.e. USA carriers.

The problem, such aproach is quite limited first, and do not use air wing to full extent. For example, it is unsuitable against smaller vessels which do not warrant use of such expencive missiles, it cant be effectively used against land targets, etc. It is only good against big ships in big war.
 

Salty Dog

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and here is the vid:
Nice video, thank you for that. Clearly shows the buddy-buddy IFR.

Watching the video also comes to mind the Chinese (PLAN) have the same Kusnetsov/Su-33 system, albeit still in the works and a long way from being operational.

Perhaps it would be interesting to bring the PLAN into these Kusnetsov discussions too.
 

funtz

New Member
so its sort of a ship with missiles, that had aircraft carrying capability and made for the big soviet-time wars.

How many aircrafts (fixed/rotary) was it designed to carry?

However the russian naval forces have it now,
Is it planned to be used till 2030?

In what role? as the training platform for future carriers-aircraft carrying ships?

What is the offensive/defensive capability that it will offer to the russian navy till 2030 (if it serves till that time)?

From what I've heard, carrying and using the buddy refueling pods is not a major task, involving only modifications to the aircraft's fuel management system. Modern FMS (even on smaller fighters) are capable of handling this job even without any modifications.

Currently, the only catapults available are those powered by steam. This requires a large amount of the onboard volume and power to generate the steam (always done near the engine/reactor room, pump it, store it and finally blast it ). The tanks and pipes occupy a large amount of volume and require frequent maintenance.

The power of the catapult has to be manually adjusted every time a different aircraft type needs to be launched (you wouldn't use the launch power used for a light fighter like a F-8 Crusader to launch a heavy aircraft like an E-2 Hawkeye).

So, if you have a small(er) carrier to start with, skipping the catapults would look like a good idea.

However, this situation might change in the future when electromagnetic catapults enter service on the next generation of US super-carriers. Since they are all electric, all those huge steam pipes can be avoided. At the same time they can launch much heavier aircraft.
Thank you for all of that, i thought that the Kuznetzov was a large ship, apparently the aircrafts was not the only thing they carried.
 
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AegisFC

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There are some excellent photos of Admiral Kuznetsov during a recent exercise, posted by Jeff Head, in DT's sister forum, China Defence Forum:

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/wor...ng-manuevers-med-atlantic-many-pics-3759.html

It is the first time I have seen photos of armed as opposed to clean aircraft on a Russian carrier.

Tas
Here are some more pics, of the Kuznetsov when it was in the straights of Gibraltar.

http://maquetas.mforos.com/353336/6654206-sorpresita-en-el-estrecho/

Some interesting pics, it really looks like the hull needs some TLC.
Also, as a general question to everyone, I've read that the phased arrays on the Kuzn don't work, is that still true?
 

Salty Dog

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Some interesting pics, it really looks like the hull needs some TLC.
Nice photos, thank you!

Just some trivia for you . . . .

You will notice the starboard side is not too bad a shape whilst the port side is truly and awfully ragged looking. It's those sly sailors at work.

Aircraft carriers always moor "starboard side to" which means on the pier you will only see the starboard side of the ship. Naturally a ship wants to appear the very best to the folks on the pier (especially the admirals), hence the sailors spend more time and effort to make the starboard side look good. This repeats itself in all navies and even for smaller ships and in many a sea story.
 

AegisFC

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Nice photos, thank you!

Just some trivia for you . . . .

You will notice the starboard side is not too bad a shape whilst the port side is truly and awfully ragged looking. It's those sly sailors at work.

Aircraft carriers always moor "starboard side to" which means on the pier you will only see the starboard side of the ship. Naturally a ship wants to appear the very best to the folks on the pier (especially the admirals), hence the sailors spend more time and effort to make the starboard side look good. This repeats itself in all navies and even for smaller ships and in many a sea story.
Not sure that is ENTIRELY true, when I was stationed in Norfolk I saw the carriers moored on either side to the pier, but the rest of your story is true enough. Heck both destroyers I was on do that, if only because it is easier to paint the hull from the pier than from the little aluminum fishing boat the BM's use to paint the non-pier side.
 

kilo

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This might be a stupid question but what are those white buoy hanging in the racks on the side?
 

AegisFC

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This might be a stupid question but what are those white buoy hanging in the racks on the side?
Life rafts. They look similar to the ones the USN uses, just white.
 
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Salty Dog

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Not sure that is ENTIRELY true, when I was stationed in Norfolk I saw the carriers moored on either side to the pier, but the rest of your story is true enough. Heck both destroyers I was on do that, if only because it is easier to paint the hull from the pier than from the little aluminum fishing boat the BM's use to paint the non-pier side.
Sorry about going off topic, but I could not resist.

Yes, I was on some small boys too and even had a go in the "paint punt". The big boys on piers 11 or 12 had barges for painting outboard. They used JLGs on those barges to reach up higher.
 

alexsa

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Nice video, thank you for that. Clearly shows the buddy-buddy IFR.

Watching the video also comes to mind the Chinese (PLAN) have the same Kusnetsov/Su-33 system, albeit still in the works and a long way from being operational.

Perhaps it would be interesting to bring the PLAN into these Kusnetsov discussions too.
It is a good vidoe but it also shows that the ship can realistily only laurch one aircraft at a time off the ramp but could have two ranged). In so far as buddy refuellingis ocncnered given the reduction in MTOW to amountof feul available coudl be constrained wiht reduces effectiveness.
 

Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
It is a good vidoe but it also shows that the ship can realistily only laurch one aircraft at a time off the ramp but could have two ranged). In so far as buddy refuellingis ocncnered given the reduction in MTOW to amountof feul available coudl be constrained wiht reduces effectiveness.
Annother thing that should be considered is reliability. Ski jumps can not break down, cat's do. For a navy that is not especially sophisticated in maintinance and logistical terms this could be an important factor.

It seems the real question is not wether CATOBAR is more effective but wether extra monetary, reliability and maintinance costs can be realisticlaly sustained by said navy and if are the benifits worth it. After all the RN had the choice of CATOBAR with the QE class, but the did go with a ski jump and STOVL. There does have to be some real benifits to STOBAR/STOVL vs CATOBAR.
 

funtz

New Member
It is a good video but it also shows that the ship can realistically only launch one aircraft at a time off the ramp but could have two ranged). In so far as buddy refueling concnered given the reduction in MTOW to amount of fuel available could be constrained with reduced effectiveness.
With out any weapons on store for a plane, how much fuel can the plane take off with from the longer launch position, to be a dedicated refuelers?
What capability does that add to the planes dedicated to air defense?

following image seems to suggest that 3 launch positions are available on the Kuznetsov.

View attachment 2397

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-27k_files/kuznets_01.jpg

How many sorties can a single Su-33 fly in a day?

another thing that should be considered is reliability. Ski jumps can not break down, cat's do. For a navy that is not especially sophisticated in maintenance and logistical terms this could be an important factor.

It seems the real question is not whether CATOBAR is more effective but whether extra monetary, reliability and maintenance costs can be realistically sustained by said navy and if are the benefits worth it. After all the RN had the choice of CATOBAR with the QE class, but the did go with a ski jump and STOVL. There does have to be some real benefits to STOBAR/STOVL vs CATOBAR.
As people have said previously in this post and as is available online it seems that steam catapults add on a lot of operational and maintenance baggage to a ship i guess that must increase its life cost by a quite significant.
Is there a issue of nuclear vs conventional power(with regards to generating steam)?
Are there any figures for a operational cost comparison between two ships i guess the RN must have analyzed all of this, after all cost is a prime concern to all.
 
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Ozzy Blizzard

New Member
With out any weapons on store for a plane, how much fuel can the plane take off with from the longer launch position, to be a dedicated refueler (including fuel tanks etc.) ?
What capability does that add to the planes dedicated to air defense?

following image seems to suggest that 3 launch positions are available on the Kuznetsov.

View attachment 2397

http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-27k_files/kuznets_01.jpg

How many sorties can a single Su-33 fly in a day?
There are 2 short take off positions on which the aircraft can oly carry limited weapons and 1 long on which MTOW is possible, which is essentially a long run on one of the first two.


As people have said previously in this post and as is available online it seems that steam catapults add on a lot of operational and maintenance baggage to a ship i guess that must increase its life cost by a quite significant.
Is there a issue of nuclear vs conventional power(with regards to generating steam)?
Are there any figures for a operational cost comparison between two ships i guess the RN must have analyzed all of this, after all cost is a prime concern to all.
This is precicely what i mean. you have to make a judgement as to wether your logistical and maintinance infestructure can handle the added work of steam cats, and if so is the additional capability worth it? In the case of the USN it clearly is, but not so for the british. There seems to be alot more to the CATOBAR vs STOBAr debate than sortie rates.
 
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Tasman

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This is precicely what i mean. you have to make a judgement as to wether your logistical and maintinance infestructure can handle the added work of steam cats, and if so is the additional capability worth it? In the case of the USN it clearly is, but not so for the british. There seems to be alot more to the CATOBAR vs STOBAr debate than sortie rates.
Good points Ozzy. I think this is a well balanced assessment as to why only a few navies (USN and French) are building CATOBAR carriers.

Tas
 
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