ADF recruitment crisis.

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Is there no position for a technically very capable person in the ADF? Should I serve as a grunt. I am over 6'8, 115 kg, I can carry over 140 kg (for a short distance if loaded up I can carry 8x20kg bags of concrete.) I am pretty good shot, I can dig holes. I think I could work up to Sergeant pretty quick.
You could probably waltz into Signals of Engineers fairly easily.

Qualification for promotion is, amongst other things, time-based. It takes at least a couple of years to go through each rank, but how long I am not sure. I can't really field a question on Army enlisted rank times, but I suspect you'll be looking at around the vicinity of eight years to get to Sgt.

Best bet is to talk to a recruiter, as you've got a pretty good handle on what you can and can't do. They'll be able to give you all the options you have available to you, and can send you out plenty of info for you to decide which suits you best.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think it would be interesting if they could recruit a per centage from each state. have a regular battalian group in SA,WA,Tas...3 for VIC ...3 NSW 3 for QLD. Just a thought...a high percentage of SAS are WA born....As for navy and Airforce..? not sure that it would have any advantage from state recruitment. I know when i joined, staying in NSW was important to me at the time.it became far less important as my career progressed.
 

octopus7

New Member
I'm in the same boat as nick with my physical fitness but have decided to do something drastic about it. The last 3 weeks I have been on that opti-slim meal replacement diet (lost 8 kgs so far) and go on 10 km walks each day and have just joined the gym. I'm determined to get to the fitness stage I used to be at. The trainers at the gym can help me with my R.A.N swim test as well as the "beep" test used for the fitness test. So anyone who wants to join should definetly have a chat to their local gym.
Mc Taff my niece who is a bosun's mate told me i'd be bored with it and reckon's I should be a storbie. But a boatswain's mate is what i'm compelled to do.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I'm in the same boat as nick with my physical fitness but have decided to do something drastic about it. The last 3 weeks I have been on that opti-slim meal replacement diet (lost 8 kgs so far) and go on 10 km walks each day and have just joined the gym. I'm determined to get to the fitness stage I used to be at. The trainers at the gym can help me with my R.A.N swim test as well as the "beep" test used for the fitness test. So anyone who wants to join should definetly have a chat to their local gym.
Your local gym will help out a hell of a lot.

Like I have said, anyone else considering joining would do well to exceed the initial test limits by as much as possible, as in any kind of basic training (from officers in the Navy through to grunts in the Army) they'll test you to breaking point.

When I did it, we were flogged every second morning, and on top of that we had PT at least several times a week. The people who had done the bare minimum to get in very quickly found themselves struggling to keep up, and even the young whippersnappers found themselves pushed a fair bit.

It pays to be super-fit. Bare minimum is nowhere near enough.

I'd forgotten about swimming; it isn't a huge huge factor, but well worth being able to punch out a good kilometre or two with ease. You'll have plenty of time in the water, that's for sure.

Mc Taff my niece who is a bosun's mate told me i'd be bored with it and reckon's I should be a storbie. But a boatswain's mate is what i'm compelled to do.
It is boring. And it's hard work.

But once you've been in a good ten years, it'll be more than worth it, because you'll be in charge of some complicated evolutions, perhaps even involved with teaching them; and it's awesome to be hauling stuff across in a Jackstay xfer with the ships close enough that you can throw a tennis ball between them. The spray as they steam alongside, and the awesome power as one ship accelerates away under full throttle is pretty cool.

Plus you'll be a small arms expert, ceremonial expert and although you never ever leave the shitty jobs behind, you'll enjoy the good ones. Plus you'll be helmsman, lookouts, doing simple navigation, performing anchoring and berthing - all the nitty gritty.

Storbies have an easier time of it, and get time to muck about later on. But the job isn't as "navy" as BM.

Tip: Once you're in and have nailed a couple of interviews, get recruiting to set you up with a ship/base visit, and ask if you can talk to a couple of junior sailors and a leading hand from each department. You'll find out more than I can tell you, and they'll give you the down low on what goes on.
 

octopus7

New Member
Once again thank you for the valuable advice. I went out to the HMAS Cerberus open day last month and had a good look around at the seaman ship school as well as the weapons simulator range. I managed to chat with a PO Boatswain's mate who told me to go for it. I headed over to the stores school but nobody was on board to give me any advice. Had a great day there anyway. Made me more determined to get fit and sign up.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I headed over to the stores school but nobody was on board to give me any advice.
This comes as little surprise ;)

Storbies have much nicer hours than BM... that's one very big plus. You actually get a little more sleep at sea.

Anyone who has been BM up to LS loves it. Usually the folks who don't like it petition to change to a different department. Takes a while and holds back a promotion, but if it isn't for you, then it isn't for you.

But BM is good, honest work.
 

BlackHawkDown

New Member
DFR Reviews

As I understand it the process for applicants is under review, even at Duntroon, which has never changed its process since its inception.
 

octopus7

New Member
As I understand it the process for applicants is under review, even at Duntroon, which has never changed its process since its inception.
Well they could start by taking it out of the hands of the Manpower company who apparently run the defence 131901 hot line. I called them a few weeks back as I am engaged and wanted some info about what happens with married quarters on base etc. They simply refered me to the defence website with info that I had already read 10 times over. So in short they were not much help at all.
So making recruitment a wholly defence operated venture would be a big plus. I'd prefer to talk with an actual member of the navy than some civillian working for a private recruiting company anyday.
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well they could start by taking it out of the hands of the Manpower company who apparently run the defence 131901 hot line.
Outsourcing was a means to reduce direct costs, but it has taken away an extremely large dimension of recruiting.

I'd go into how it provides rest postings, etc, and how the depth of experience and advice and out-and-out initial filtering of applicants was thousands of times better, but it's a Bridge/Water situation now. To make it back to a purely defence run system, we'd need a heap of experienced defence personnel to run it which we simply do not have.

So many outsourcing ventures have turned this defence force into the defence farce, with some of the decisions being made with the almighty dollar in mind, not capability.

Referring people to a website does nothing, they call to get advice and questions answered. Without access to the (quite large and detailed, not to mention confusing) defence publications, you have no hope of getting an answer without talking to someone in the business.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Outsourcing was a means to reduce direct costs, but it has taken away an extremely large dimension of recruiting.
The irony of all of this was that Manpower were initially rated as unsuitable. I was involved with the initial Tender Eval process (1998) for this and it was a shemozzle.

Some of the ADF recruitment people set up their own company and clearly had the best historical expertise to use - Govt made it clear that it was unacceptable and that it needed to be evaluated on distribution of network etc... which these people could never have met in the timeframe provided.

EN was counted out as the Govt did not want to see it going to a defacto Govt entity. Basically all the others pulled out when it became obvious that ADF had no idea how and what was needed. Manpower picked it up by default as they were the last man standing.

The other tragedy is that they could have nailed Manpower numerous times on contract breeches, but had no second rower to fall back on as nobody else wanted a bar of it.
 

octopus7

New Member
No wonder recruitment for many has become such a nightmare. Manpower should just do what they do best and that is handling labour hire, for forkies, contracters, storemen etc.
Would be interesting to know if other countries such as the USA and UK still have a wholly defense ran recruiting unit. Or whether they too have opted to outsource to private labour hire companies.
Sadly it (recruiting) seems to have gone the way of other once government ran entities such as public transport when they are privatised. We can only hope that by the time those of us here wish to sign on the dotted line that the whole caper has been fixed up.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I kow I add nothing usefull but you are the first guy coming here wanting to serve on tanks and not infantry, air force or navy.

HALLELUJA :D

Keep on going!
 

datguy

New Member
I kow I add nothing usefull but you are the first guy coming here wanting to serve on tanks and not infantry, air force or navy.

HALLELUJA :D

Keep on going!

:D motivation!!!

your post was useful to me, thanks

and as for my choice in tanks, well sitting in a BIG car covered in THICK armour with a BIG gun, and getting in there and making a fabulous mess of things...there really was no other choice for me
and besides who doesn't love a tank, cept' the enemy ofcourse
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
No wonder recruitment for many has become such a nightmare. Manpower should just do what they do best and that is handling labour hire, for forkies, contracters, storemen etc.
Would be interesting to know if other countries such as the USA and UK still have a wholly defense ran recruiting unit. Or whether they too have opted to outsource to private labour hire companies.
Sadly it (recruiting) seems to have gone the way of other once government ran entities such as public transport when they are privatised. We can only hope that by the time those of us here wish to sign on the dotted line that the whole caper has been fixed up.
The recruiting farce has gone on much too long. Trouble is, as McTaff has pointed out, handing it back to the ADF would involve reassigning lots of experienced personnel who just can't be spared (especially given the comparatively high operational tempo of the ADF at present). However, I think the time has come when the ADF must regain direct control of recruiting, even if it results in short term problems. I believe it would pay in the long run.

I am over 6'8, 115 kg, I can carry over 140 kg (for a short distance if loaded up I can carry 8x20kg bags of concrete.) I am pretty good shot...
6'8", 115kg!!! I am never going to disagree with anything you say ever again Stingray! :shudder

Tas
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually 115 kg is my target weight. Im a tad over 120 at the moment. Im too heavy to be a nimble basketball player, but Im pretty much right for rugby.

My current job provides little physical exercise and inhibits my exercise routine. I enjoy physical work. I am not designed to just shuffle papers. One of the reasons I enjoyed construction was the physical stuff.
 

Bauer_CTU

New Member
McTaff,

I would like to offer my apologies for not having replied earlier. Having to spend almost literally all my time with my relatives here from Greece has nearly left me with no time to myself, let alone be able to reply. As always, thank you very much for your assistance.

I'd be doing everything you can until you have a good clear few months, and seriously lay off the bad stuff this Christmas - it'll destroy all the good work so far.

Once you have your clear few months, hit the gym and see a Personal Trainer at least three times a week, and once you're in the swing of it see if they do a Boot Camp, and do that as well. It's nothing remotely like what you'll do at basic training, but it's the all-round fitness it provides, and if you have a good instructor you'll learn to tune in to the person barking orders.

Sometimes in PT you'll do stuff like it, but there will be other stuff that'll be your bread-and-butter. ;)
I will try to heed your advice re Christmas feasts and the like... I've become a little lax this week what with visitors coming over and it has eaten its way into my efforts to get fit. But, still, I do try to do my best such as when walking to the shops early this morning, I kept a quick pace and when returning home laden with shopping bags I maintained the briskness. I'll have to discipline myself further, though. About what you said of the gym; a next door neighbour said that she recently signed up with a women's only gym (I asked if I could go too, but she said I'd have to go in disguise :confused: ) and that it has been the best thing she ever decided to do, and encouraged me to also do the same. I immediately thought of what you wrote above, so am looking forward to joining up very early next year.



You need 50 posts before you can use the PM service here.

-But if you've served in the Greek Army as part of their National Service, or any other service, then that's no problem. Just make sure you are up front and honest, and get all records pertaining to the service or citizenship now, and have them ready.

-If you have family and/or ties to Greece, then that'll also take them time to work out, but it's no big hurdle either. It's also not too much of a problem with dual citizenship.

-A criminal record overseas is also no big deal either, as long as you have all the documentation, and you can get the local gendarmes to provide a full transcript of your record.

I threw a wide net - hopefully I might have covered your question.
I did not want to have you write a whole series of scenarios but you have explained things for other prospective recruits as well which is great!

The only one that kind of fits my situation is the second example (although my father completed his national service in Greece prior to migrating to Australia). I don't have dual citizenship or anything (and to tell you the truth being Australian more than completes me as a person :cool: , but I digress); but I do have relatives there.

So I come to the question that was on my mind: A few people people have told me that they have heard that when those of a migrant background are going through the recruitment process, they have to sign a declaration that for example, 'Australia declares war on Greece, since you are of a Greek background, who would you fight for? Australia or Greece?' Is this something that is pressed upon (if it is true)? I mean I was born here and my loyalties lie with this nation and especially if I am in the ADF I would obey its orders to the hilt. It's weird, I know what I want to say, but I don't want to be misread and misunderstood. Can you see what I am trying to get at? Oh well, it's probably nothing and is more than likely an urban myth. My cousin had once been a member of the Reserves here for a short period of time, but that was a long time ago and he may not remember. But I'll ask him in case you don't know during the Christmas break.



When I said "looking like you've lost your dog", I mean remain happy and outgoing; don't get gloomy or bored. You'll be sitting in a chair for hours on end watching a ten minute loop of some once-was-exciting recruiting video, or perhaps daytime commercial TV so it'll be one heck of a challenge. So don't look like you would rather be elsewhere.

More to the point, be confident. Confidence comes with a combination of knowledge, self awareness, practice and common sense. Set yourself up to succeed and you'll manage fine.
I'm usually okay with boredom, good for drill practise I hope :). But I see what you mean.

Meh, I know people who went to ADFA for an aviation job and did things like BA, and they are in control of aircraft worth millions of dollars. Doesn't really matter about what degree it is.

The maths is an obstacle, but if your heart is in it, you only really need to know ratios, fractions, times tables and division. Any high school maths teacher or tutor can probably get you learning that stuff by rote.

Anything you need to know about working out windage or anything complicated like that, they will teach you exactly how they want you to do it when the time comes. There is no assumed knowledge in the ADF.
That would mean quite a different type of commitment to what I've been aiming for (I mean this in a positive sense). If only the teachers we had could only have sat down with us and explained maths problems futher, how different my life could have been! You've proven to be quite the mentor for me of late, I shall endeavour to see what I can do!

I'd consider going officer with those quals, as it sounds like you are bilingual (at least) and may even manage some good positions. As before, aim high, may as well take a shot at something high and get your second or third choice, rather than wondering whether you "couldabeen" by settling for something that you probably could have bettered.
I am bilingual. Obviously, English is my mother tongue. But I have been trained in Greek (through to tertiary level, but not formally recognised [long story]) and aside from some grammatical problems here and there and difficulties with some of the dialects, I am quite adept at the language and do speak it at home wherever practical (except with my brother of course who'll have none of that :p). I have been known to translate Greek documents to English on a historical forum elsewhere and I also worked in a high profile position with the Greek Orthodox Church here. So I guess I'm OK with it. I guess it would be a good thing to discuss it further with my recruiter.

Anyways, it's no problem, happy to help out. :D
Seriously, Sir, thank you most wholeheartedly for your assistance, and again, I apologise for the most belated reply.

Nick


___________________________________________________


re Manpower issue

A few years back, my brother was after a position with the RAAF, we can't remember what it was though. Anyway, he spoke to a RAAF recruiter via telephone who said that with the tertiary qualification he would be obtaining, there would be no problem and provided he was fit enough to pass selection, he would be most welcome to enlist for that particular position. It was the dream job for him.

Anyhow, when he was nearing the end of the degree some years later, he called again just to see if anything had changed. Civilian recruiters had taken over by that point and they gave him a firm negative answer even though the RAAF recruiter had said it would be alright. He felt utterly dejected at the response.

I understand that gaining entry is competitive and based on a high standard of professionalism, but I doubt that a civilian would know more than an actual serviceman/woman (either active or inactive) about a particular aspect of a job within the ADF, if you all get what I mean. The government should slowly start to reimplement the practice of old thus avoiding the issues that McTaff has raised.
 
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McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The only one that kind of fits my situation is the second example (although my father completed his national service in Greece prior to migrating to Australia). I don't have dual citizenship or anything (and to tell you the truth being Australian more than completes me as a person :cool: , but I digress); but I do have relatives there.

So I come to the question that was on my mind: A few people people have told me that they have heard that when those of a migrant background are going through the recruitment process, they have to sign a declaration that for example, 'Australia declares war on Greece, since you are of a Greek background, who would you fight for? Australia or Greece?' Is this something that is pressed upon (if it is true)? I mean I was born here and my loyalties lie with this nation and especially if I am in the ADF I would obey its orders to the hilt. It's weird, I know what I want to say, but I don't want to be misread and misunderstood. Can you see what I am trying to get at? Oh well, it's probably nothing and is more than likely an urban myth. My cousin had once been a member of the Reserves here for a short period of time, but that was a long time ago and he may not remember. But I'll ask him in case you don't know during the Christmas break.
Yes, they will probably ask you that. They'll be looking for your reaction. It'll be very hard to articulate your answer, but you don't want to look like you've rehearsed it too much.

But something along the lines of "In the unlikely event that was to happen, I would feel no great difficulty in opposing Greece in armed conflict. I am joining the ADF because I believe in our country, and what it stands for."

A further question might be "Would you kill someone from Greece in battle?"

I can't remember if I covered this, but again, you need to say something along the lines of "Yes, because I am there because I joined to fight for Australia. Any Greek soldier is actively fighting because he chooses to do so, and it would be my responsibility to protect myself, my team, and my country."

I am bilingual. Obviously, English is my mother tongue. But I have been trained in Greek (through to tertiary level, but not formally recognised [long story]) and aside from some grammatical problems here and there and difficulties with some of the dialects, I am quite adept at the language and do speak it at home wherever practical (except with my brother of course who'll have none of that :p). I have been known to translate Greek documents to English on a historical forum elsewhere and I also worked in a high profile position with the Greek Orthodox Church here. So I guess I'm OK with it. I guess it would be a good thing to discuss it further with my recruiter.
The Greek Orthodox thing actually might come up in interviews as a blindsider. I would talk to a service Chaplain with regards to how they view being in the military and being religious, as they have a lot of interesting things to say which, if you have gone to the trouble of finding out, would impress the interviewers that you've made so much effort to contact people in Defence to speak to them on matters like these.

That said, you should use that experience as evidence of position of responsibility / supervisory role.

That would mean quite a different type of commitment to what I've been aiming for (I mean this in a positive sense). If only the teachers we had could only have sat down with us and explained maths problems futher, how different my life could have been! You've proven to be quite the mentor for me of late, I shall endeavour to see what I can do!
Maths is very much a skill that Defence look for; but surprisingly they want speed and accuracy in things I've already explained. The only people who do maths at a greater level than high school are pretty much aviators and engineers.

There are some strangely basic things they could ask you which are hard to work out, but in reality they are simple high school ratios of fractions: Maybe they'll ask if a ship is heading west towards a point at 30 knots, and an aircraft is heading east to that point at 210 knots, and they are X miles apart, how long till the aircraft passes overhead the ship?

Stuff like that. Sometimes they'll ask you fractions of time; remember things like 12 minutes is one fifth of an hour, 10 mins is one sixth, 20 mins is a third, etc... those are sometimes thrown in.

Times, speeds and distances are what they like to apply the problems to. If you've got your times tables, your fractions, ratios and the like sorted out, start applying them to questions involving those. High school tuition places all around Australia would be happy to take your money to get you learning all this stuff; consider your options in that context as it is bound to help.

Seriously, Sir, thank you most wholeheartedly for your assistance, and again, I apologise for the most belated reply.
You're most welcome.

Good luck, Nick
 

datguy

New Member
assessment day done

so i went for my assessment on monday (ADF "army"), and thanks to this thread and others like on this site, i was totally prepared and nothing came as a surprise.
There was one thing in particular that help me out toward the end of the day and that was ofcourse service knowledge in general and knowlegde of the job applied for, eg in my case tank crewman (MBT). My interview with the army officer went pretty bad considering i was a nervous idiot, but as he told me at the end of it, my knowledge of the job and its equipment (for eg. m1a1 abrams MBT) was more than enough to get me over the line. So i was recommended on the condition i lose 12kg and maintain it for 6months :mad: "180cm, 116kg bodybuilder (lean) + BMI = not very good with the doctor, but thats just the way it goes i guess?"
.....so time to lose some muscle, because i've ive never really had a high fat content.

Thankyou again to all that have posted on this thread and others like it, they have been outstandingly helpful to me so far and im sure will be in the future as well.
so from this potential army recruit the best of luck to everyone applying or considering applying for a position in the ADF.
 
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