A400m

[ngatimozart]

The C-130J/C-17 combination is a great solution despite the grief of supporting two platforms and both Germany and more so France would have been served better buying into that combination. The A400M was a project to enhance Airbus’s military profile and enhance the EU supply chain. Could have been somewhat more successful had the program gone with a proven turbofan engine as opposed to developing a huge turbo shaft engine from scratch.

That Europrop turboprop was / is the big failing of the A400M because it has caused the most grief. They should have gone with twin turbofans and that would have solved a lot of problems. They could've still got the short landing and take off capabilities with boundary layer blown air or whatever the correct term is. It's the same system used on the C-17, C-390 & C-2, with the technology being around for decades so It's not something new.

 

[swerve]

Boundary layer blowing was used on the Buccaneer, & I think also on the slightly earlier Scimitar, to shorten take-off & landing performance. So, in service since the late 1950s. Thoroughly proven.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The C-130J/C-17 combination is a great solution despite the grief of supporting two platforms and both Germany and more so France would have been served better buying into that combination.

Well they are two well proven platforms, and most countries have long experience knowledge of C130, so the burden isn't as much as it first appears as it was already there as legacy. All the A400 customers operate the C130 platform. So everyone is operating a mix of platforms, which again is a problem for the A400. For many the A400 fits in a fairly diverse range of platforms, it isn't the first platform off the rank in most cases.

However, the roles of the C130 and C17 are quite clear and they are two very different aircraft. Flight costs, operation rates are quite reasonable because of fleet usage generally. A400 fleet usage is another issue. With average flight hours per year quite low, there isn't going to be a large pool of spares and logistics for these aircraft. I expect fleets will be often cannibalized to keep them flying. Which is fine for someone like Germany with a large number of airframes and light lift needs, but smaller operators could be really squished if leaning on them hard.

The C27J on the other hand, has done quite well. While not as C130 integrated as first claimed, given the low number of airframes <90 being based off existing C130 tech or inspired from it, isn't as crazy. Like wise the c295 is quite a good platform. Both are likely to get cheaper and easier as more are built and flight hours are built up and problems are solved.

With the A400 im not sure it really gets to that point. Hence why IMO Germany is trying to start a transport company with some of their airframes, to increase their flight hours. I suspect the germans have very low flight hours on their fleet.

While the A400 is just getting to 100,000 flight hours, the C130J had over 2 million flight hours two years ago (2019) and a million in 2014.

While 400 airframes are going to fly more hours than 100, each C130 individually are flying more hours IMO.

 

[ngatimozart]

I reckon that if KHI did a deal with Lockheed Martin they could kill the A400M internationally. There's nothing wrong with the C-2 apart from its Japanese and its sticker price. If they and LM worked the design to increase the payload to say 45 - 50 tonnes then that would probably work in nicely with the C-130 fleet for customers who don't require a C-17, but like the range. IIRC the C-2 hold is of similar height to the C-17. There are civilian engines that would definitely provide the required thrust.

 

[At lakes]

I reckon that if KHI did a deal with Lockheed Martin they could kill the A400M internationally. There's nothing wrong with the C-2 apart from its Japanese and its sticker price. If they and LM worked the design to increase the payload to say 45 - 50 tonnes then that would probably work in nicely with the C-130 fleet for customers who don't require a C-17, but like the range. IIRC the C-2 hold is of similar height to the C-17. There are civilian engines that would definitely provide the required thrust.

Airbus A400M origins

Checkout this forum it shows the myriad of different designs originally considered for the A400M. In particular the one with 4 turbofans making it very similar in design to the C17 be it scaled down a wee bit. Mind you the C17 looks a hell'va lot like the Armstrong Whitworth 681 which the poms tried to promote in the early 60's.

Armstrong Whitworth AW.681

 

[John Newman]

What I would like to see happen is the USAF produce a requirement for a ‘next gen Herc’, not just an update of the existing Herc, but something with a larger cross section, wider and higher.

An aircraft that sits in between the C-130 and C-17, something that can transport Boxer CRV and Lynx IFV size vehicles, etc for example.

That would allow Boeing, LM and NG to either design something new or partner up and use existing designs such as A400M, C-390 and C-2.

Why reinvent the wheel when you can improve an existing wheel?

I could imagine the winner of such a competition would be of great interest to the RAAF with the C-130J fleet due for replacement around 2030.

Will such a requirement happen? Who knows, but I’d certainly like to see it happen.

Cheers,

 

[Terran]

Airbus A400M origins

Checkout this forum it shows the myriad of different designs originally considered for the A400M. In particular the one with 4 turbofans making it very similar in design to the C17 be it scaled down a wee bit. Mind you the C17 looks a hell'va lot like the Armstrong Whitworth 681 which the poms tried to promote in the early 60's.

Armstrong Whitworth AW.681

The C17 was an evolution from the smaller McDonnell Douglass YC15 which was originally targeted to replace the C130 as part of the USAF Advanced Medium STOL Transport program from the late 1960s.

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YC15 in turn took inspiration from the Breguet 941s which McDonnell had worked to license as the McDonnell 188 though that was a prop bird that the French used for less than a decade.

What I would like to see happen is the USAF produce a requirement for a ‘next gen Herc’, not just an update of the existing Herc, but something with a larger cross section, wider and higher.

An aircraft that sits in between the C-130 and C-17, something that can transport Boxer CRV and Lynx IFV size vehicles, etc for example.

That would allow Boeing, LM and NG to either design something new or partner up and use existing designs such as A400M, C-390 and C-2.

Why reinvent the wheel when you can improve an existing wheel?

I could imagine the winner of such a competition would be of great interest to the RAAF with the C-130J fleet due for replacement around 2030.

Will such a requirement happen? Who knows, but I’d certainly like to see it happen.

Cheers,

C130 replacement programs have come and gone and come again... Biggest issue is try and get the buyer and users on the same page. The USAF wanted a jet, it wants speed. For them they would probably be happy with C390 as buyer.
The US Army wanted vertical. They wanted to be able to land it anywhere any time, they really want a tilt-rotor as user. In fact JMR (FVL) Capability set #5 read “JMR-Ultra: New ultra-sized version for vertical lift aircraft with performance similar to fixed-wing tactical transport aircraft, such as the C-130J Super Hercules, with introduction planned for 2025.”
Quoting Future Vertical Lift FVL
Since 2025 is audacious to say the least for selecting a C130J class lifter. The draft basically was written with the Bell Boeing Quad Tiltrotor concept from the late 1990s early new millennium in mind clearly doesn’t seem ready to fly. Bell outed the Quad in 1999, and it was in publications until about 09, the USAF in about 11 though outed it’s Speed Agile models blended wing quad jets.

 

[ngatimozart]

I really think that the US Army is overreaching and overambitìous with its FVL program. It isn't exactly the most effective and successful organisation running acquisition programs.

 

[John Fedup]

I really think that the US Army is overreaching and overambitìous with its FVL program. It isn't exactly the most effective and successful organisation running acquisition programs.

The US Army isn’t the only organization with acquisition issues and certainly there are vendors that over promise. Pollies preserving their favourite pet pork projects doesn’t help.

 

[ngatimozart]

The US Army isn’t the only organization with acquisition issues and certainly there are vendors that over promise. Pollies preserving their favourite pet pork projects doesn’t help.

I know that, but they don't have a very good record for getting a program past the prototyping stage. The one program that they did really well on was the C-27J and the USAF threw a real tanty and shafted them on it.

 

[swerve]

Well they are two well proven platforms, and most countries have long experience knowledge of C130, so the burden isn't as much as it first appears as it was already there as legacy. All the A400 customers operate the C130 platform. So everyone is operating a mix of platforms,

Germany ordered six C-130J, including three KC-130J to replace the helicopter AAR role of the Transall, because there were problems (IIRC now resolved) with A400M refuelling helicopters. Germany has never previously operated C-130, AFAIK. The new ones will all be based in France, as part of a joint French-German squadron. The French C-130Js will apparently be used by special forces. Perhaps that's also the plan for the German ones.

Belgium has five C-130H left (out of 13), but is retiring them as A400M are delivered. All but one (which will be kept as a museum piece) have already been sold to Blue Aerospace, which apparently plans to dismantle them for parts. They're going to a storage site in Spain.

Luxembourg has a single A400M in a Belgian squadron.

Spain has just retired all its C-130s. Blue Aerospace has them now. They've been replaced by A400M.

France & Turkey are retiring their Transalls, but keeping their existing C-130 fleets alongside their new A400M.

Malaysia is also keeping C-130 in service alongside A400M.

So, they don't all operate C-130. It looks as if France, Turkey & Malaysia will operate mixed fleets of C-130 & A400M, & Germany will to some degree avoid logistic complications by having six C-130J operating with the French C-130 fleet.

 

[Terran]

I really think that the US Army is overreaching and overambitìous with its FVL program. It isn't exactly the most effective and successful organisation running acquisition programs.

I think the aim of Ultra was to light a fire under the USAF’s Ejection seat, But at the time there were 4 concepts being hawked that would have had they been built meet the draft. The Quad tiltrotor, Karem TR65, Boeing super frog and the Hexaplane.
Of course none of them were practical enough to leave vapor stage.
The Army I think overestimated the Air Force wants to replace and ability to weasel the budget. The USAF for its side was happy to run studies but didn’t see a need yet. Even if it did I think they were waiting for more mature COTS options.

 

[StingrayOZ]

So, they don't all operate C-130. It looks as if France, Turkey & Malaysia will operate mixed fleets of C-130 & A400M, & Germany will to some degree avoid logistic complications by having six C-130J operating with the French C-130 fleet.

Thank you for the update. My statement was incorrect. Some of these announcements are quite recent and I am a bit confused by the UK pulling their C130J out of service. By 2023. I assume they want to use their A400 more. But they just paid to fix the wingboxes.

Marshall expects strong demand for surplus UK Hercules

Set to be retired from Royal Air Force use in 2023, the service's Lockheed Martin C-130J-30 tactical transports will represent an attractive proposition for secondhand buyers, according to support provider Marshall Aerospace and Defence Group.

www.flightglobal.com

The original point was many operate a mixed fleet with lifters, including the C17 and C130 combo, operating the A400 doesn't really simplify that, Spain operates the C295, France operates the C235, C160 (for how long?), UK may be getting rid of its C130's eventually, but still intends to operate the A400, C17 together. Germany has a fleet of various airbus planes that do some roles. I don't really see the A400 being the only aircraft a nation ever needs. It doesn't have to be.

I guess the question is, does the new platform costs and logistics get outweighed by the benefits it can offer (more carrying capacity, or lower operating costs etc).

Tilt rotors IMO are way off the game in terms of operating costs, particularly in terms of planes, per ton moved. I can see tilt rotors annoying helicopters in lift, so things like the Chinook and particularly the Ch53k and the current V22. But Tilt rotors aren't going to be cost effective against C130 or A400 or C17's. Platforms are getting heavier, which is likely to keep pushing them out of being really useful tactical lifters of the big stuff. I wouldn't be betting on any tilt rotors taking significant market share in the next 10 (25?) years. Look at how long the V22 took to get into a semi decent place. Giant paradigm shifting changes are sometimes hard. Christ, look at the A400, conventional is hard.

 

[John Fedup]

Agree, conventional is indeed hard and the C-17 wasn’t all roses during its initial phase. Until a replacement in range perhaps key military aviation assets should maintain minimal production capability. An expensive procedure for sure but losing a significant portion of a fleet due to aging or downing with no replacement capacity will be worse.

 

[kato]

France operates the C235, C160 (for how long?)

It is planned that 14 C-160NG (the last production run from the mid-80s without fixed refueling gear) will be retained until 2023. The two C-160G Gabriel will be retired in 2025, to be replaced with Falcon 8X.

For tactical transport use C-160NG operations largely ceased in August and September last year, rotating over to A400M (en l'hexagon) and C-130H (overseas).

Germany has a fleet of various airbus planes that do some roles.

All remaining Airbus and Bombardier aircraft in the Luftwaffe outside A400M are personnel and VIP passenger aircraft only - except for the MRTT fleet (which others of course also participate in). The A310 MRTT will be retired next year as the multinational A330 MRTT come online.

 

[kato]

The new ones will all be based in France, as part of a joint French-German squadron. The French C-130Js will apparently be used by special forces. Perhaps that's also the plan for the German ones.

There are no dedicated French or German aircraft in that squadron outside of their markings. The squadron is integrated to the point of having aircraft crews and technical crews mixed from both countries. For certain operations this of course has to be unraveled, but otherwise it's their modus operandi.

The purpose of the squadron from German perspective is tactical transport of special forces and specialized forces in scenarios where the transport capacity of an A400M is not required or infrastructure is sub-par.

P.S. You may want to include Hungary as a "sorta A400M user". Germany convinced them last year to play the fig leaf for the Luftwaffe's "spare" A400M.

 

[swerve]

You mean the "NATO" transport unit set up in Hungary? I'm not sure how those A400M are going to be used.

Thanks for the elucidation re the mixed squadron.

 

[kato]

You mean the "NATO" transport unit set up in Hungary? I'm not sure how those A400M are going to be used.

The NATO Heavy Airlift Wing in Hungary runs the three C-17 of SAC.

What i mean is the "Multi-National Air Transport Unit" (MNAU) being set up in Lechfeld, South Germany. Effectively it's a German unit with ten A400M providing air transport and air-to-air refueling for countries that aren't members of the European Air Transport Command (which coordinates the same thing for the German, French, Italian, Spanish, Dutch, Belgian and Luxembourgian air transport fleets).

Basically in the last transformation it was decided that Germany ordered too many A400M and that the extras should be sold on. In 2017 it was decided to instead set up "something multinational" to justify keeping the extra aircraft (and operating an extra airfield...). Took them three years to find someone for it - Hungary signed up for it last September, and they weren't exactly the first... or second ... or third ones asked. They're also the only ones so far.

The initial Hungarian contribution consists of sending a single officer on an exchange to Germany to get technical training on the A400M.

 

[swerve]

I expect you can see the cause of my confusion. Hungary . . . .

 

[kato]

Rewrote it to clarify a bit.

Basically, Hungary is buying transport capacity (on A400M) in Germany under the cover of a "multinational unit". Not sure what they're paying, but it's presumably meant to be cheaper and/or more reliable for them than SAC or other solutions.