6th Generation Fighters Projects

koxinga

Well-Known Member
We don't even really know what makes up the magical 6th gen other than being designed by countries that already operate 5th gen fighters. Supercruise seems to be out, long range weapons and sensors in.
I would start with first principles:

What are the problems (threat perception) that major airforces are trying to solve with these programmes? Problems that they deem current 5th gens inadequate or not scalable?

That will lead down the path of survivability, lethality, affordability, and supportability that would drive the designs and associated features. None of these points are new, most of these were discussed by openly available US studies in penetrating counter air (PCA) since the mid 2010s.

My own opinions on these threat perceptions/vulnerabilities are:
  1. Fragility of existing system of systems approach in battlespace management
  2. Limited/piecemeal/costly to effect lethal responses at range
On 1. current SoS approach relies extensively on a large network of assets. Costly, but also vulnerable, such as AWACS, tankers, space based assets. Network battlespace management has always been a massive challenge, and once these lynchpin assets are taken out (an increasing possibility with near peer opponents that comes equipped with long range AAMs, reasonably effective frontal stealth assets). it falls apart.

My guess is this means a focus towards distributed sensor networks that are adaptive, able to operate independently or collaboratively.

On 2., related to 1. cost and affordability grows exponentially in a SoS approach and the cost to deliver ordances is... massive. Say an AIM-120D is around USD 3.8 million per shot stand alone, the cost of delivering that missile shot, once you factor in the supporting assets (tankers, AWACs, various sensors) would well be multiple times of that missile.

Hence this concept of large (able to support power and fuel requirements) semi autonomous platorms, augmented by smaller CCA drones acting as force multiplers/missile trucks is being applied to 6th gen designs.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not sure if any program is addressing the core problems, cost, performance, and delivery. Although the Tempest seems to be making progress albeit we really don't know for sure, FCAS partners seem to be on the verge of a divorce and the F-47, WTF knows given the F-35 program, it could mirror the F-35 wrt false promises on software and technology. Not sure which is worse, LM's BS or Boeing's numerous recent failings. Frankly NG winning the F/A XX program might be the quickest workable 6th GEN fighter. A F-35A & C with a AETP, TR3, and a full block 4 software version now would have been nice and could be the pathway to an enhanced F-35 that offers 80% 6th Gen capability at a reduced price....might happen at LM's fantasy works :rolleyes:
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
On 1. current SoS approach relies extensively on a large network of assets. Costly, but also vulnerable, such as AWACS, tankers, space based assets. Network battlespace management has always been a massive challenge, and once these lynchpin assets are taken out (an increasing possibility with near peer opponents that comes equipped with long range AAMs, reasonably effective frontal stealth assets). it falls apart.
I don't know if tankers and AWACS are that vulnerable if used correctly.

Tankers only need to be close to the battlespace if you have short ranged fighters. If the fighters are 2000NM+ capable, then they don't have to be very close at all. Same with AWACS, if its sensor capability is very good, and you are using sensors mounted on drones to extend that 1000+NM.. then they don't have to be very close either. You have options.

However if your fighter has a combat radius with weapons of 500NM, then everything is vulnerable. At that range everything will be at risk, particularly on the ground.

I do agree with drones acting as multipliers and working, by design with 6th gen platforms seems to be a thing. But long range munitions require long range heavy platforms.

I saw this this other day.. Perhaps on why US solutions may be less interesting for other countries.
A F-35A & C with a AETP, TR3, and a full block 4 software version now would have been nice and could be the pathway to an enhanced F-35 that offers 80% 6th Gen capability at a reduced price....might happen at LM's fantasy works
The F-35 promised too much with block IV, too much to quickly IMO. The F-35 just needs a normal development path and loose some specialised roles, or outsource them to drones or pods or something. It's become a real bottleneck. Too many too much all being wanted from the single platform. I guess 6th gen becomes what ever are the short commings of 5th gen.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
Back in January when we were talking about the “J36” demonstration aircraft What I Call “BEG CHUNGUS”. In particular how it related to the range conundrum.
see my post here.
In essence at an early phase of the NGAD project the PCA with an objective 1000nm range ended up the size of the F111. For a 2000nm range it would have to be a FB21. The USAF found this concept unrealistic atleast not in the numbers and time frame. Something may still come from it down the line.
However as they made that conclusion the Chinese dropped the J36 which seems to be built to that concept.
A regional fighter bomber requires a long well developed runway, large maintenance crew, large hangers and ultimately everything gets more expensive around it. It’s less able to do fighter maneuvering like turns and banks I am not even talking airshow stunts.
So the USAF circa 2024 and then with the release of F47 seems to have reimagined the whole thing with what appears to be a more conventional fighter sized aircraft with probably 870nm combat range and a weapons payload on par with F22 but it will require tanking. This size however means that they can operate from anywhere a fighter can including distributed fields. Interestingly the J50 demonstrator also revealed with the J36 seems to fit this latter bill.
NGAS means a rethink on what kind of tanking.
Tankers and AWACS can survive and operate in combat situations with a near peer foe but will only be able to do so if they stand off. As aircraft like the J36 and long range air to air missiles are designed to kill such platforms. To make up for this other concepts have to be looked at to bring the fuel from the tanker to the plane before penetration.
like possible VLO tankers
Or smaller tankers based off common platforms that could operate with EW support to tank before entering contested airspace.

Now yes in theory CCA can onboard some sensors. However the CCA we are seeing are small. The airframe generally maxing at maybe 2-4 missiles powered by very small cheap subsonic engines like the Williams International FJ33. An Engine normally used on 4-6 person biz jets often in pairs. This means that the fuselage is very narrow meaning the radar is also going to be Small. Like as small as the electo optic turret on a helicopter small. This will limit their power individually but if they are networked they in concert with AI and other assets can mosaic together an image.
All of which means the System of Systems is still the model. It’s just the mix of systems that is at play.
What is Sixth generation though? Despite what some might think, it’s more evolution from the digital age beyond the cloud age and into the AI age. The suspicion is these.
  • These are aircraft designed and tested virtually before testing. Something that they had tried on F35 but didn’t succeed in.
  • They will feature cyber warfare capabilities that previous generations of fighter designers never dreamed of. This is especially important as they are going to be both manned and unmanned and partnered with unmanned aircraft that are not operating as drone puppets but in concert by AI agents. It’s not just defensive but offensive too. It will attack across the EM spectrum.
    A whole new interface well you are at it augmented reality like the Coffin system from Ace combat games. An evolution where the pilot see “through” the aircraft is already on F35. This would be beyond that. We are going full Ghost in the Shell here.
  • New hardware with less aerobatics and more endurance based. Snipers not knife fighting. Using new generations of long range weapons.
  • Star Trek levels of sensors. IR, UV, X band passive and active with countermeasures across the EM spectrum. A full DIRCM suite, EW warfare possible laser defense capabilities.
  • Long endurance running not short sprints. Extending combat range to around 900nm. they are likely to be larger and more streamlined for reduced drag. They will require a whole new generation of engines to power them and sip fuel like a Prius.
  • Next Generation Stealth across all aspects. With Ceramic coatings. Modern stealth is polymer based which leads to deterioration next generation is going to be more resistant to weathering and corrosion. F35’s mirror finish is supposed to be related to that. The airframe itself will have a reduced surfaces.
I say all this yet it’s still not here. The Chinese J36 and J50 are as far as can be determined yet the guts of a J20 repackaged. Those are demonstration aircraft without mission capability. The YF47A is being built and will likely have most of this in prototype but it will take successive iterations to reach mission ready. For existing Fifth generation systems elements of this may be added with obvious exceptions. The F35 is expected to remain in service until the edge of the 22nd century.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
Not sure if KAAN is really a 6th gen program. Doubtful of Germany running their own program.

The 6th gen programs are all quite different. They aren't interchangeable.
I put KAAN in the equation as it is potentially taking some money of market, from potential customers.


Off course not means this is going to happen, but this is already shown distraction from one 6th gen LCAS partner. Especially after German and French increase bickering on the program. Thus this potentially means any 6th gen project can be reduce because of 5th or you can say 5.5 Gen fighter.

6th gen we all know still evolving concept. So it is very potential that the current 5th gen program can evolve to 5.5 or 6 Gen with adjustments on their sensors and electronics.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I put KAAN in the equation as it is potentially taking some money of market, from potential customers.
Yeh Im not so sure. Turkey has engine supply issues and is politically complex for most european buyers. I think Turkey is likely aiming for middle east and asian customers. Competing against Korea.

I think also many forces aren't understanding systems of systems.
Most lack capable large modern AWACS planes. Most lack capable ELINT platforms.

The US shifting resources out of Europe will be interesting, as european forces will have to spend more on logistics and enablers.

E7 Wedgetail, MC-55 Peregrine, P8, KC-30, mq4c triton, Ghost bat kind of hint at what many small medium countries need to have, the fighter platform is important but clearly isn't as critical as it used to be. I think 6th gen isn't about one platform that can do everything, because it can't. But it will also depend on the threats that mid power countries face, which are all pretty different.

Spain is interesting. But also historically, spain doesn't spend much money. They have a huge US force deployed to spain, that may appear to be ending and that is perhaps why there is so much shuffling around with Spanish acquisitions. The US-Spanish split is complex. Spain is less worried about the russians as they are worried about staying a cohesive and unified nation and that their far flung territories are respected in a world where big powers take what they want.

Europe struggles with multinational cohesion on these big programs. But Japan and the UK, are pretty big nations with similar needs and real budget and real money. I could see other nations buying into that program, with two strong reliable partners leading it and the italians keeping them honest and lobbying for middle power needs (like realistic operating costs etc).
 
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