Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft

[Crusader2000]

Could this improve the odds of the Super Hornet or the Rafale in winning the MMRCA? Plus, considering the Indian Navy already operates a 4.5 Generation Fighter. (i.e. Mig-29K) Could this be a bid for the Indian Navy to acquire the F-35B/C????:duel




Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft

 

[Feanor]

They've allegedly announced that they're opting for the additional 29 MiG-29K in addition to the original order. So I'm not sure were this would fit in. I doubt they're looking for the F-35 at this stage in the game.

The article also contains factual errors, for example the Typhoon is not the only thrust-vectoring aircraft. The option is available for the MiG-35. The EF also has no naval variant, and from what I understand none is in the works. It looks like a mountain of speculation based on a handful of facts.

 

[Crusader2000]

They've allegedly announced that they're opting for the additional 29 MiG-29K in addition to the original order. So I'm not sure were this would fit in. I doubt they're looking for the F-35 at this stage in the game.

The article also contains factual errors, for example the Typhoon is not the only thrust-vectoring aircraft. The option is available for the MiG-35. The EF also has no naval variant, and from what I understand none is in the works. It looks like a mountain of speculation based on a handful of facts.

The article says the new fighters would be in addition to the 45 Mig-29K planned for the Indian Navy. Maybe the Indian Navy plans on pasting the Mig's to the IAF?


As for the F-35 I think they're indeed looking at the aircraft.

 

[Bonza]

They've allegedly announced that they're opting for the additional 29 MiG-29K in addition to the original order. So I'm not sure were this would fit in. I doubt they're looking for the F-35 at this stage in the game.

The article also contains factual errors, for example the Typhoon is not the only thrust-vectoring aircraft. The option is available for the MiG-35. The EF also has no naval variant, and from what I understand none is in the works. It looks like a mountain of speculation based on a handful of facts.

Agreed. They haven't even received the Migs yet and there's already talk of introducing yet another type? If that were the case I wonder why they are bothering to acquire the Migs at all. Unless they were a package deal with the carrier - was that the case? I'm unsure.

For that matter, would a Super Hornet be able to launch from Indian carriers in any kind of combat state?

Given the above questions, and given that the Indian military have made statements to the effect of wishing to reduce number of types in service, this story seems a little shaky to me.

 

[Crusader2000]

Agreed. They haven't even received the Migs yet and there's already talk of introducing yet another type? If that were the case I wonder why they are bothering to acquire the Migs at all. Unless they were a package deal with the carrier - was that the case? I'm unsure.

For that matter, would a Super Hornet be able to launch from Indian carriers in any kind of combat state?

Given the above questions, and given that the Indian military have made statements to the effect of wishing to reduce number of types in service, this story seems a little shaky to me.

The Super Hornet and/or Rafale can operate just as effectively as the Mig-29K's and likely better.


BTW India may not want the Super Hornets or Rafale at all. But the real prize..........(i.e. F-35)

 

[Bonza]

The Super Hornet and/or Rafale can operate just as effectively as the Mig-29K's and likely better.


BTW India may not want the Super Hornets or Rafale at all. But the real prize..........(i.e. F-35)

From the information I've seen, an empty Super Hornet weighs nearly three tons more than a Mig-29K. Max takeoff weight for the Super exceeds that of the Mig by about seven tons (open source information, if anyone has a more accurate set of numbers let me know).

Considering the carrier in question has a ski jump configuration, and given that the Russians had trouble operating SU-33s with full weapon/fuel loads from ski jumps (I believe this is correct but if Feanor is around and can confirm I'd appreciate it), it doesn't sound like the platform would be a good fit for the carrier.

I'm not sure about the position of India on the F-35. I think it depends a lot on the state of their relations with Russia - if they want to improve their indigenous aircraft industry, and they certainly seem to, it might be a better idea to go down the MCA path and co-develop with Russia. However I don't know enough to speculate.

If they want F-35s they could be waiting a while...

 

[Crusader2000]

From the information I've seen, an empty Super Hornet weighs nearly three tons more than a Mig-29K. Max takeoff weight for the Super exceeds that of the Mig by about seven tons (open source information, if anyone has a more accurate set of numbers let me know).

Considering the carrier in question has a ski jump configuration, and given that the Russians had trouble operating SU-33s with full weapon/fuel loads from ski jumps (I believe this is correct but if Feanor is around and can confirm I'd appreciate it), it doesn't sound like the platform would be a good fit for the carrier.

I'm not sure about the position of India on the F-35. I think it depends a lot on the state of their relations with Russia - if they want to improve their indigenous aircraft industry, and they certainly seem to, it might be a better idea to go down the MCA path and co-develop with Russia. However I don't know enough to speculate.

If they want F-35s they could be waiting a while...

The Super Hornet has a high lift wing design and now can be had with the much more powerful F414 EPE @ 26,400 lbs each.

As for waiting on the F-35. They wouldn't be needed for a decade at least. So, time is not the problem. Its also worth noting that the larger possibly Nuclear Power follow on to the IAC. (i.e. Project 71's) Maybe equipped with Catapults. As a matter of fact India has expressed interest in the US EMALS System in development for the Ford Class Super Carriers.

 

[riksavage]

The Super Hornet has a high lift wing design and now can be had with the much more powerful F414 EPE @ 26,400 lbs each.

As for waiting on the F-35. They wouldn't be needed for a decade at least. So, time is not the problem. Its also worth noting that the larger possibly Nuclear Power follow on to the IAC. (i.e. Project 71's) Maybe equipped with Catapults. As a matter of fact India has expressed interest in the US EMALS System in development for the Ford Class Super Carriers.

If India decides to go West and order latest generation F35's over Russian Migs they had better get their cheque books ready, same goes for US EMALS. We a talking about big ticket items and a switch in technology. Not just airframe related issues but the entire ground support and supply chain system will need to be transformed, not forgetting a substantial shift in the strategic relationship between the two countries. The US for one will need India to prove that any tech relating to the F35 is not going to head West into Russian hands.

Also the US needs to keep one eye on its relationship with Pakistan and another on its growing relationship with China (which still has a border dispute with India).

It would make more sense for India to opt for Rafi, much less political baggage and they will end up with a very credible fighter scheduled to be around longer than the Super Hornet.

 

[Crusader2000]

If India decides to go West and order latest generation F35's over Russian Migs they had better get their cheque books ready, same goes for US EMALS. We a talking about big ticket items and a switch in technology. Not just airframe related issues but the entire ground support and supply chain system will need to be transformed, not forgetting a substantial shift in the strategic relationship between the two countries. The US for one will need India to prove that any tech relating to the F35 is not going to head West into Russian hands.

Also the US needs to keep one eye on its relationship with Pakistan and another on its growing relationship with China (which still has a border dispute with India).

It would make more sense for India to opt for Rafi, much less political baggage and they will end up with a very credible fighter scheduled to be around longer than the Super Hornet.

India has already signed a deal for P-8I Martime Patrol Aircraft (High Tech), C-130J's, and is about to sign for C-17's. That plus several other Military Contract that the odds look good for the Americans. Including Apache and Chinook Helocopters. As a matter of fact the odds of the Super Hornet winning the MMRCA are above average!


Sorry, its too late the Americans have landed!

 

[riksavage]

India has already signed a deal for P-8I Martime Patrol Aircraft (High Tech), C-130J's, and is about to sign for C-17's. That plus several other Military Contract that the odds look good for the Americans. Including Apache and Chinook Helocopters. As a matter of fact the odds of the Super Hornet winning the MMRCA are above average!


Sorry, its too late the Americans have landed!

Yes agreed, but the F35 is a generation ahead of the SH and is a force multiplier. C130's, C17's & P81's don't shoot down aircraft or deliver air superiority. The F35A, B & C will represent the backbone of all future NATO aircraft - partners will be vetted much more closely. I seriously doubt the US will want Russian technicians visiting India to deal with MIG issues milling around hangers containing F35's?

I remain very, very sceptical about India getting access to F35's, it will require a strategic shift in the current relationship, one which India, never mind America may not agree to.

 

[Crusader2000]

Yes agreed, but the F35 is a generation ahead of the SH and is a force multiplier. C130's, C17's & P81's don't shoot down aircraft or deliver air superiority. The F35A, B & C will represent the backbone of all future NATO aircraft - partners will be vetted much more closely. I seriously doubt the US will want Russian technicians visiting India to deal with MIG issues milling around hangers containing F35's?

I remain very, very sceptical about India getting access to F35's, it will require a strategic shift in the current relationship, one which India, never mind America may not agree to.

Well, you maybe skeptical yet the US and Indian Governments are not. The P-8I is full of some of the most sophisticated and secretive electronic in the US inventory. Yet, the US has no problem selling it to India. As safe guard are in place to keep the Russians Out! Further, India is free to purchase almost anything it want from the US Military. From AESA Radars (APG-79) in the Super Hornet to the Aegis Air Defense System.


If, India wants the F-35 it can half it..........at a price of course!

 

[JonMusser]

The Super Hornet and/or Rafale can operate just as effectively as the Mig-29K's and likely better.
BTW India may not want the Super Hornets or Rafale at all. But the real prize..........(i.e. F-35)

to start off Crusader Mig-29 need no catapult while the F-18 Refale do! F-35 is not being offered to India in the current Weapons program to replace Mig-23

As for waiting on the F-35. They wouldn't be needed for a decade at least. So, time is not the problem. Its also worth noting that the larger possibly Nuclear Power follow on to the IAC. (i.e. Project 71's) Maybe equipped with Catapults. As a matter of fact India has expressed interest in the US EMALS System in development for the Ford Class Super Carriers.

the Chances of the us giving Emals to the UK much less India is 0% chance that is top of the line the used likes its monopoly on this type of new Tech it would easily give the design to the steam catapult but not the new future system

riksavage: If India decides to go West and order latest generation F35's over Russian Migs they had better get their cheque books ready, same goes for US EMALS. We a talking about big ticket items and a switch in technology. Not just airframe related issues but the entire ground support and supply chain system will need to be transformed, not forgetting a substantial shift in the strategic relationship between the two countries. The US for one will need India to prove that any tech relating to the F35 is not going to head West into Russian hands.
Also the US needs to keep one eye on its relationship with Pakistan and another on its growing relationship with China (which still has a border dispute with India).
It would make more sense for India to opt for Rafi, much less political baggage and they will end up with a very credible fighter scheduled to be around longer than the Super Hornet.

Agreed

F-35 well not be available to non developing countries (countries in developing partnership for the F-35) and none of current designs for the new Indian carriers have power space or anything else for that matter for a catapult additionally the f-35c is only being built for US navy i doubt India well ever add to the list!

 

[Crusader2000]

to start off Crusader Mig-29 need no catapult while the F-18 Refale do! F-35 is not being offered to India in the current Weapons program to replace Mig-23

Just because the Rafale and Super Hornets use Catapults to take-off from French and American Carriers. Doesn't mean they can't operate from Ski-Jumps Carriers without Catapults. As for the F-35 not replacing the Mig-23. I have no idea what you are talking about. As the topic is about the Indian Navy buying a newer generation fighter. The Mig-23 is no longer in service and when it was. It was operated by the Indian Air Force not the Indian Navy!

F-35 well not be available to non developing countries (countries in developing partnership for the F-35) and none of current designs for the new Indian carriers have power space or anything else for that matter for a catapult additionally the f-35c is only being built for US navy i doubt India well ever add to the list!

You really lost me here! The F-35 will not be available to non developing countries??? Sorry, but Japan was not a JSF Partner. Yet, it has just agreed to purchase the F-35. Which, will be followed by many more non-JSF Partners in the future!

As for the F-35C and India. It could be launched from the Ski Jump Project 71's. Yet, the F-35B would be far better suited. That said, I believe the point about the F-35C. Has nothing to do with the Project 71's or its Ski Jump. As Indian has expressed strong interest of late. In a much Larger and Possibly Nuclear Powered Carrier equipped with Catapults. So, discussion of the F-35C likely refer to that Carrier. :duel

 

[JonMusser]

so here the F35 has not been selected to replace f-4 in Japan competition is on going!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...d-with-Chinese-threat/articleshow/5260634.cms
this article suggest that it is a front runner but i still would like to see the ATD-X take it as it well be home grown

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_ATD-X

i had airplane wrong for India which is replacing the Mid 21's look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_Competition

do you see F-35 in the competition nope the F35 Available to counties that are not involved with designing until at the earliest 2018 and look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II

it doesn't have short runway capabilities like the Mig-29 it NEEDS a Catapult like previously stated the Indian navy has no plans of having catapults no matter how much i wish they did on there ships Fact next they well not get Emals as previously stated so the F-35C is OUT for India or any other country Minus France (they have Catapults) next the F-35B is well suited but India seems to not want it it like the Mig-29 it has paid to develop

 

[Crusader2000]

so i went and did a search for Japan and F-35 here is what ai got
Japan to buy US F-35 fighters to contend with Chinese threat - Rest of World - World - The Times of India
key word in this is Considering not is going to or has purchased but considering which means the Eurofighter and others still have a chance as does ATD-X which would make fore sense to me!
Mitsubishi ATD-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*sigh*

Quote:

Japan gearing up to acquire F-35 fighters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Stealth jets would replace aging F-4 fleet

Kyodo News

The Defense Ministry is making arrangements to select the F-35 as Japan's next mainstay fighter jet, sources at the ministry and the Self-Defense Forces said Sunday.


The ministry will embark on the full acquisition process in December and prepare to make budgetary requests for the stealth plane in the fiscal 2011 budget, the sources said.

The ministry is looking to buy 40 of the next-generation jets, which can evade radar and are estimated to cost about ¥9 billion each.

The move apparently means priority has been put on strengthening air-defense capabilities as neighboring China makes efforts to enhance its air force by developing its own next-generation aircraft, analysts said.

The ministry, however, may postpone budget requests for the F-35 until fiscal 2012, due to a view in the government that a contract should not be concluded before the jet's actual capabilities can be confirmed. The F-35 is set to be deployed in the mid-2010s.

The F-35 is being jointly developed by the United States, Britain, Australia and other countries. Japan is not participating because doing so would conflict with its principle of banning weapons and arms-technology exports.

Japan initially wanted to acquire the U.S. F-22 stealth jet to replace its aging collection of F-4EJ fighters, which are still used alongside F-15s and other planes, but the United States prohibits the export of the F-22, and plans to halt production have already been announced.

Japan passed on other models, such as the U.S. F/A-18 and F-15FX and the Eurofighter, which is made by a consortium of European manufacturers.

The plan to acquire the F-35 is likely to be incorporated in new defense policy guidelines and a medium-term defense buildup plan to be adopted in December 2010.

The government led by the Democratic Party of Japan decided in October to delay its adoption by a year, partly to reflect the policies of its coalition partners

 

[JonMusser]

Japan to buy US F-35 fighters to contend with Chinese threat - Rest of World - World - The Times of India

read the date on the top of this article i think it says 11-23-2009

so that would be today or yesterday Right look at what it says Considering wow

despite this if your Source is correct and they do perused to purchase it because Japan is not part of the F-35 developing group USA UK Canada Aus Turkey...ect. it well not receive them tell those countries get theres so probably not tell 2018! which i do not understand to be honest with you they are replacing F-4's
and in regard to F-35c or F-18E,F,G taking off of Carriers with out catapults i take it I won't that argument

 

[Crusader2000]

[

QUOTE=JonMusser;185314]so here the F35 has not been selected to replace f-4 in Japan competition is on going!
Japan to buy US F-35 fighters to contend with Chinese threat - Rest of World - World - The Times of India
this article suggest that it is a front runner but i still would like to see the ATD-X take it as it well be home grown

source: Mitsubishi ATD-X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry, but Japan has all but selected the F-35.

i had airplane wrong for India which is replacing the Mid 21's look here:

Indian MRCA competition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

do you see F-35 in the competition nope the F35 Available to counties that are not involved with designing until at the earliest 2018 and look here:

Sorry, I think you are a little confused. Yes, the F-35 is not in the MMRCA. Because it didn't make the cut-off in time. So, it was not included.

This thread is about the Indian Navy (NOT AIR FORCE) wanting a newer type then the current Mig-29K. So, in short one has nothing to do with the other.

F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

it doesn't have short runway capabilities like the Mig-29 it NEEDS a Catapult like previously stated the Indian navy has no plans of having catapults no matter how much i wish they did on there ships Fact next they well not get Emals as previously stated so the F-35C is OUT for India or any other country Minus France (they have Catapults) next the F-35B is well suited but India seems to not want it it like the Mig-29 it has paid to develop

[/QUOTE]

As I have said time and time AGAIN. Just because a Naval Fighter can operate from a Carrier with a Catapult. Doesn't mean it can't operate from a Ski Jump! Regardless, the F-35 is available in two Naval Models. With the F-35B (STOVL) or F-35C. (CV) Clearly, an options that the Mig-29 doesn't enjoy.


BTW The F-35C can take-off from a Conventional Aircraft Carrier with Catapults. Something the Mig-29K can't do! Plus, the F-35B can operate from a Ski-Jump more efficiently than a Mig-29K!

As for EMALS you have no idea. Yet, we do know that India has expressed an interest in the Catapult Systems. Which, is likely tied to her desire in a much larger Aircraft Carrier. (possibly Nuclear)

 

[JonMusser]

Crusader2000

Sorry, but Japan has all but selected the F-35.

-Okay i was not aware thank you for confirmation

Sorry, I think you are a little confused. Yes, the F-35 is not in the MMRCA. Because it didn't make the cut-off in time. So, it was not included.

This thread is about the Indian Navy (NOT AIR FORCE) wanting a newer type then the current Mig-29K. So, in short one has nothing to do with the other.

-okay i am not aware of any fighter competition for India other than That^^^

As I have said time and time AGAIN. Just because a Naval Fighter can operate from a Carrier with a Catapult. Doesn't mean it can't operate from a Ski Jump! Regardless, the F-35 is available in two Naval Models. With the F-35B (STOVL) or F-35C. (CV) Clearly, an options that the Mig-29 doesn't enjoy.

-the F-35C well need major updating man why would us invest billions into a new catapult if all it had to do is put ski jump? and well not preform in line with other aircraft in its class so if India doesn't get the EMALS i suggest it purchase the F35B Was i think the others can not be modified to get the Super Hornet or F35C off th e ski jump but the F35B yes

BTW The F-35C can take-off from a Conventional Aircraft Carrier with Catapults. Something the Mig-29K can't do! Plus, the F-35B can operate from a Ski-Jump more efficiently than a Mig-29K!

-yes I Know that is what the USN well use

As for EMALS you have no idea. Yet, we do know that India has expressed an interest in the Catapult Systems. Which, is likely tied to her desire in a much larger Aircraft Carrier. (possibly Nuclear)

EMALS i have a hard time believing the us well allow India to have please if you find proof show me

 

[riksavage]

[

Sorry, but Japan has all but selected the F-35.




Sorry, I think you are a little confused. Yes, the F-35 is not in the MMRCA. Because it didn't make the cut-off in time. So, it was not included.

This thread is about the Indian Navy (NOT AIR FORCE) wanting a newer type then the current Mig-29K. So, in short one has nothing to do with the other.

As I have said time and time AGAIN. Just because a Naval Fighter can operate from a Carrier with a Catapult. Doesn't mean it can't operate from a Ski Jump! Regardless, the F-35 is available in two Naval Models. With the F-35B (STOVL) or F-35C. (CV) Clearly, an options that the Mig-29 doesn't enjoy.


BTW The F-35C can take-off from a Conventional Aircraft Carrier with Catapults. Something the Mig-29K can't do! Plus, the F-35B can operate from a Ski-Jump more efficiently than a Mig-29K!

As for EMALS you have no idea. Yet, we do know that India has expressed an interest in the Catapult Systems. Which, is likely tied to her desire in a much larger Aircraft Carrier. (possibly Nuclear)[/QUOTE]

Desire is one thing, reality is another. India has desired many things, but unfortuantely many such projects have failed to materialise or are delayed because of cost overruns, corruption or as a result of poor project management.

'If', and this is a very big 'If' the US considered giving EMALS to India they would have to pay a huge price to offset development costs. India simply does not have the spare cash to afford such a 'gold ticket' item and still be able to upgrade all the rest of its antiquated hardware and infrastructure across all three services. Much-higher priorities exist elsewhere to try and bring India close to China's current military capacity. (which is a major concern amongst senior Indian military personnel) .

Again Orion's, C130's and C17's are not battle winners, modern stealthy multi-role aircraft are, so please don't compare the two groups. The level of clearance required to buy the next generation F35's is way above that required to purchase transport or maritime patrol aircraft regardless of the tech contained therein.

 

[Crusader2000]

-okay i am not aware of any fighter competition for India other than That^^^

Did you read the article with the first thread???

Indian Navy keen to buy newer generation aircraft

-the F-35 well need major updating man why would us invest billions into a new catapult if all it had to do is put ski jump? and well not preform in line with other aircraft in its class

Well, first the F-35 is available in two Naval Models. So, the F-35 offers a choice that none of the others do. Regardless, India likely wants catapults on a larger Carrier. Because catapults allow aircraft to take off at far greater weights.

To put this into context......take a Mig-29K and Super Hornet. Lets say for argument sake. That both can take-off from a landbased runway with the same payload. Now put the Mig-29K on a Ski Jump Carrier and the Super Hornet on a Catapult Carrier. Which, do you believe can take-off with the Heavier Load. Well, to answer my own question. The Super Hornet can and not with just a little more weight but a lot more!

BTW Take-Off Weight includes not just bombs and missile but also fuel. So, using a Ski Jump can cause a big trade-off between weapons or fuel. As you are limited to take-off weight from the start...........

In short Ski Jumps are used because they're a simpler and cheaper solution. That doesn't meant they're a "better" solution.

-yes I Know that is what the USN well use

Enough said.....

EMALS i have a hard time believing the us well allow India to have please if you find proof show me

[/QUOTE]

Well, I have no proof. Yet, I can state that India has expressed interest and can prove a source if need be. Plus, the fact that the US has already sold high tech hardware to India. So, I see no reason why the US wouldn't consider such a sale. That is if India was really serious about purchasing the EMALS SYSTEM. Even if it was its to early to make such a offer. As the EMALS hasn't even proven itself to the USN yet. (Should launch the first aircraft I think during the first or second quarter of 2010)

Well, I have to go until tomarrow...............until the next time!:duel