Marlin AIP SSK

contedicavour

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Take the sea in November ? :rolleyes: the future India aircraft carrier will be project by Fincantieri ? :D
It could even be that Cavour has already sailed around La Spezia, but there isn't a single picture more recent than end May on the net :mad: so I have to believe that for the moment no sea trials have taken place...

Yes, the Indian ADS aircraft carrier will be an adapted Cavour, a bit larger (by which I mean bigger width because Cavour's hull is limited to 40 meters wide so that it can enter Taranto inner harbour...)

ciao
 

kams

New Member
I've found some information on this partially stealth ship : project 20382 "tigr", export version of the 20380 "steregoutchi" building in Severnaya (St Petersburg) in a series of 3 for the Russian Navy.
Characteristics : 2000 tonnes, 104.5 x 13 x 7.8 meters , 28kn, Yakhont SSMs, Shtil VLS and Kashtan CIWS, 4x533mm torpedoes, 1x100mm main gun, helo KA27.

The other ship present in the stand is the project "12300" scorpion FACs, though it doesn't seem to have anything particularly stealthy.

cheers
Thanks Countdicavour.
 

aaaditya

New Member
No unfortunately there is no news whatsoever on this contract in the Italian defence magazines. Are you sure the tender is still active ?
Regarding the South Korean design, it was an unauthorized copy of our Intermarine design... if I remember correctly the copy was so blatant that the issue was handled up to WTO/TRIPS level for breach of IP protocols.

cheers
the tender is still active ,however there are new entrants in it,usa has offered india it's osprey class of mine hunters which i believe are also based on the italian design(seems to be pretty popular),grse is currently engaged in building 8 mcmv's.

italian company oto-melara is developing a 30mm cannon for this vessels along with the indian company bharat electronics limited.

by the way can you provide me any link about the spanish segura class of mine counter measure vessels?
 

aaaditya

New Member
I've found some information on this partially stealth ship : project 20382 "tigr", export version of the 20380 "steregoutchi" building in Severnaya (St Petersburg) in a series of 3 for the Russian Navy.
Characteristics : 2000 tonnes, 104.5 x 13 x 7.8 meters , 28kn, Yakhont SSMs, Shtil VLS and Kashtan CIWS, 4x533mm torpedoes, 1x100mm main gun, helo KA27.

The other ship present in the stand is the project "12300" scorpion FACs, though it doesn't seem to have anything particularly stealthy.

cheers
the image that you posted is not the steregichiy ,it does not have the helicopter hangar,is it the fast attack craft?

it looks pretty stealthy than the earlier designs.
 

aaaditya

New Member
Take the sea in November ? :rolleyes: the future India aircraft carrier will be project by Fincantieri ? :D
dcn was the original consultant for the indian aircraft carrier project,however for some reason indian navy shifted towards italian assistance,however i realy doubt if the ads will even remotely resemble the cavour,the design for the ads was finalised much before the italian participation was decided upon and the design looks considerably different from the cavour.
 

contedicavour

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the tender is still active ,however there are new entrants in it,usa has offered india it's osprey class of mine hunters which i believe are also based on the italian design(seems to be pretty popular),grse is currently engaged in building 8 mcmv's.

italian company oto-melara is developing a 30mm cannon for this vessels along with the indian company bharat electronics limited.

by the way can you provide me any link about the spanish segura class of mine counter measure vessels?
The USN Ospreys are built in the US by an affiliate of the Italian Intermarine group. They are a bit larger and more ocean-going than our Gaeta, though the differences are really marginal. Frankly whether you take Osprey or Gaeta it's the same for me ;)
The Spanish MCM ships are just locally built Royal Navy Sandown type MCM ships, so you can see them in the Royal Navy official site.

cheers
 

contedicavour

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the image that you posted is not the steregichiy ,it does not have the helicopter hangar,is it the fast attack craft?

it looks pretty stealthy than the earlier designs.
Yes the picture is for the FAC. It may look stelthier than a Nanuchka or a Tarantul, but it's far from being a Visby ;)

Regarding the Indian ADS design, can you share pictures so that I can compare with Cavour ?

cheers
 

kams

New Member
Found an article on Marlin, in French:lul . The following is Googletranslated version.

We propose this morning to discover, ahead first, Marlin to you, new underwater of attack conceived by DCN. Drawing its name from a fish of the Indian Ocean, this ship, derived from Scorpène, studied in common with the Navantia Spaniard, will be exclusively intended for the market export. Paris and Madrid, which have for the moment sold 10 Scorpène in Chile, Malaysia and India, indeed decided to propose, each one on their side, a purely national product. After the S 80 Spanish, DCN thus puts on line Marlin. Of a 75 meters length for a displacement of 1850 tons in diving, Marlin is proposed directly with the system of propulsion in closed loop (AIP) MESMA, developed by DCN propulsion and installed for the first time on Hamza, third Pakistani Agosta 90B, launched this summer in Karachi. Compared to this building, whose MESMA runs on ethanol, the AIP of Marlin will run on the gas oil, which will make it possible to have only one type of reserve fuel, feeding at the same time this system, but also the diesel engines. Compared to the traditional propulsion, the AIP increases considerably the autonomy of the submerged submarine, passing from four to five days, with nearly three weeks. But, although representing a technological jump some, the system of propulsion in closed loop have to him also its limits. Usable for the patrols, it can only be with difficulty implemented for the transits, especially when they are long: “with the AIP, once the reserves with oxygen or hydrogen emptied, it is finished. Thus if the ship is not basiquement a good submarine, one does not go well far”, underlines a specialist.

Heir to Triumphing and predecessor over the Barracuda

In addition to the MESMA, the building was thus equipped with a powerful motorization. For the transits in traditional mode of propulsion, the power of its diesels enables him more quickly to reload its batteries, which is presented by DCN as a true commercial advantage compared to its competitors, like type 212/214 German. Outside, the principal difference of Marlin compared to Scorpène will lie in the adoption of diving ruders in the shape of cross of Saint Andre. This device, which will be taken again on the nuclear submarines of attack of the Barracuda type, allows a better maneuverability. Although resembling SNA of the type Amethyst, Scorpène, which is used as a basis for Marlin, “must more with Triumphing than with the Ruby from the point of view structures and technology. Its capacities of detection are exceptional, it is fast and quiet at raised speed”, explains a close relation of the file. Equipped with a system with combat SUBTICS and new very effective bases sonar, even at high speed, Scorpène, like Marlin, constitute, according to DCN, a technological jump ergonomics data processing. The innovations installed on Scorpène, in particular as regards piping or wiring, will be taken again on Marlin, as the Barracuda. Oceanic ship, Marlin will be equipped with anti-ship missiles Exocet SM 39, heavy torpedes and, possibly, mines. For DCN, this new product is not a substitute of Scorpène. “This last must remain in the offered line of goods”, ensures one at the industrialist. A first contract with Pakistan is hoped. Islamabad must make its decision at the end of the first six-month period 2007.
For those with better lingustic skills than me here is the link to original French Article.

Submarines: Marlin reveals itself
 

kams

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Yes, the Indian ADS aircraft carrier will be an adapted Cavour, a bit larger (by which I mean bigger width because Cavour's hull is limited to 40 meters wide so that it can enter Taranto inner harbour...)

ciao

There is some confusion regarding role of Fincantieri in construction of ADS. Both Janes and Defense News reported in July/August 2004, that the Ministry of Defence awarded a $30 million contract to Fincantieri's Naval Vessel Business Unit to help prepare concept, design and implementation plans for the vessel. However Sainik Samachar (Official Ministry of Defence News) reported in April 2005 that ADS design is by Navy's Design Bureau and Fincantieri will assist in Propulsion Integration. Do you have any more news on this?

Here is the link to Sainik Samachar
INDIA TO BUILD AIR DEFENCE SHIP INDIGENOUSLY

The design of this ship is being undertaken by Navy’s own Design Bureau. Leading Italian ship design and construction yard, M/s Fincantieri, has been selected by CSL to assist them in integrating the main propulsion system, making the main engine room lay-outs and in preparation of the build specifica-tions for the ship. Inputs in respect of MiG-29K will be provided by the Russian side which will also assist in the associated design work for aviation facilities such as flight deck, hangar, aircrafts lifts, ammunition lifts, aircraft launch and recovery systems.

This ship can carry a maximum of 30 aircraft and 17 of these can be accommodated in the hangar. The ship will have two runways and a landing strip with three arrester wires. The ship has a length of 252 m, maximum breadth of 58m. draft of 8.4m and a depth of 25.6m. The ship will be propelled by four LM2500 gas turbines generating a total power of 80 MW (1,20,000HP approximately) thereby enabling the ship to do a maximum speed of 28 knots. The ship will have an endurance of 7,500 nautical miles at 18 knots and the logistic endurance of 45 days
 

contedicavour

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There is some confusion regarding role of Fincantieri in construction of ADS. Both Janes and Defense News reported in July/August 2004, that the Ministry of Defence awarded a $30 million contract to Fincantieri's Naval Vessel Business Unit to help prepare concept, design and implementation plans for the vessel. However Sainik Samachar (Official Ministry of Defence News) reported in April 2005 that ADS design is by Navy's Design Bureau and Fincantieri will assist in Propulsion Integration. Do you have any more news on this?

Here is the link to Sainik Samachar
INDIA TO BUILD AIR DEFENCE SHIP INDIGENOUSLY
For sure Fincantieri is responsible for integration of the Avio/GE LM2500 turbines. I had in mind however that the team was there to help out in the design finalization as well, though only in a support role.
Technically the ship has similar dimensions (252 meters vs 244 for cavour, and even in terms of width the hull is almost identical 40 meters for the 2 ships. Difference is in the width of the flight deck which is in STOBAR configuration for India while ours is pure STOVL with rectangular flight deck).
Though there have been different news from different sources, so I'd like to see the ADS design to compare it with the Cavour's which I know well.

cheers
 

aaaditya

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The USN Ospreys are built in the US by an affiliate of the Italian Intermarine group. They are a bit larger and more ocean-going than our Gaeta, though the differences are really marginal. Frankly whether you take Osprey or Gaeta it's the same for me ;)
The Spanish MCM ships are just locally built Royal Navy Sandown type MCM ships, so you can see them in the Royal Navy official site.

cheers
however the ospreys are relatively lighter armed than the gaeta class,i wonder if the weapons potential of both the gaeta class as well as the osprey can be increased.
 

aaaditya

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You can see a pic of a model here
I am not sure how current or accurate that model is though.
they are the only images available and hence the only source of comparison for us.there may be some minor modifications,particularly with relation to the posistion of the missiles and the guns.
 

contedicavour

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they are the only images available and hence the only source of comparison for us.there may be some minor modifications,particularly with relation to the posistion of the missiles and the guns.
OK thks . The ship definitively looks quite similar to Cavour, with the exception of the angled flight deck sticking out on the side (which we don't have on Cavour). The superstructure (I mean the island) also looks very similar. Overall it remains plausible that Fincantieri helped out on hull design, though this needs confirmation (which I'll try to find).

cheers
 

contedicavour

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however the ospreys are relatively lighter armed than the gaeta class,i wonder if the weapons potential of both the gaeta class as well as the osprey can be increased.
For MCM ships we don't pay much attention to armament... but Gaetas can carry automatic 30mm Breda guns guided by fire control radars. May be even the 40/70mm mount but it would be a bit of an overkill unless the MCM ship ends up moonlighting as a patrol ship as well.

cheers
 

harryriedl

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could cavor be refited to take a CATOBAR or STOBAR aircraft with the stick out angled flight deck and a short cat its this a fisable refit
 

contedicavour

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could cavor be refited to take a CATOBAR or STOBAR aircraft with the stick out angled flight deck and a short cat its this a fisable refit
Yes it could. Given its length of 244 meters the flight deck is long enough for a conventional take-off provided a catapult were installed.
The British added an angled deck to some of their WW2 carriers in the '50s (I don't remember on which carrier type, I believe it was a Majestic class) so structurally it isn't difficult.
There is also enough space to install a catapult (approx 10 meters behind the beginning of our sky jump).

Though the whole point is why would we do this provided the F-35B is built with its STOVL capabilities.

cheers
 

aaaditya

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OK thks . The ship definitively looks quite similar to Cavour, with the exception of the angled flight deck sticking out on the side (which we don't have on Cavour). The superstructure (I mean the island) also looks very similar. Overall it remains plausible that Fincantieri helped out on hull design, though this needs confirmation (which I'll try to find).

cheers
cavours design influence can be seen in the indian aircraft carrier from the fact that the sides of the aircraft carrier are more sloped than the earlier designs,this i believe was inspired from the cavour.
 

aaaditya

New Member
For MCM ships we don't pay much attention to armament... but Gaetas can carry automatic 30mm Breda guns guided by fire control radars. May be even the 40/70mm mount but it would be a bit of an overkill unless the MCM ship ends up moonlighting as a patrol ship as well.

cheers
because conscripts are generally people with a civilian background,like cab drivers ,doctors,chefs atc,who are required by their government to serve a limited period of time with their armed forces,they are provided ,let us say a month of training per annum and may have to serve 2 or 3 months per year ,so that they can be summoned in the event of a war breaking out.

in other words they are not professional soldiers,they serve their 1 or 2 months with their armed forces and return to their civilian lives.

training for battle tanks is a very complicated and long drawn out affair(unless the battle tank is extremely simple to handle like the russian t series of tanks,or light tanks and tank destroyers),it requires professional(full time) soldiers to learn the aspects of tank warfare,they cannot return back to civilian lives since they have to practice full time to retain and improve their skills.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
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could cavor be refited to take a CATOBAR or STOBAR aircraft with the stick out angled flight deck and a short cat its this a fisable refit
it would be an absolute nightmare to retrofit a CATOBAR capability to a STOBAR vessel.

in fact it would be highly unlikely to be done as accomodation for mechanisms involves more than just the turbine pumps. Its an incredibly intrusive system

I can't think of a greater example of post construction idiocy to undertake than to not build in the capability from the start if its use is envisioned.

the intrusion on bunkerage etc would be profound.

in fact, you'd probably want to court martial any uniformed officer who seriously suggested it, or sack ther maritime engineer who put it on the table.. :nutkick
 
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