Israel: Golan Heights Up for Grabs?
- Thread starter watchman
- Start date
I can believe it, what were the Soviets worried about, technology or was it a greed issue meaning, were they required to pay off Russia for weapons that were sold.During SU times?
For sure.
My grandfather was very implemented (And I mean very!
Something that I alway`s wondered about - I know after Germany wasDuring SU times?
For sure.
My grandfather was very implemented (And I mean very!
Re united that Germany kept some Mig 29s around, was there any other type of weapon platforms from former East Germany that was kept in service.
They most certainly are.
95% of it is older than I am and I'm no whipper snapper. :rel
They most certainly do...
Do you have any video of a single Isreali loss? I have seen plenty of Syrian MIGs blown out of the sky.
Why would Israel even need to fly over Syria... they already have the Golan which is all they ever wanted.
This whole post has been quite entertaining... thanx for playing
nfloorl:It was not so much about technology but more about general politics.
If the SU thought that a country should not be supported than no WarPac country was allowed to undermine this position.
We kept some Strela MANPADS mostly for training because it is much cheaper to fire them than Stingers. We also kept some Hinds but they were soon also given away because it was too expensive to operate them.
Some AKs are still in service for OPFOR.
Many tanks ended as hard targets at our firing ranges (Interesting to see that even a training KE round is a problem for T-55s and T-72M1s ).
The rest was given away nearly for free.
We kept at least one exemplar of every interesting piece of equipment for studies and you also got everything you wanted.
If the SU thought that a country should not be supported than no WarPac country was allowed to undermine this position.
We kept some Strela MANPADS mostly for training because it is much cheaper to fire them than Stingers. We also kept some Hinds but they were soon also given away because it was too expensive to operate them.
Some AKs are still in service for OPFOR.
Many tanks ended as hard targets at our firing ranges (Interesting to see that even a training KE round is a problem for T-55s and T-72M1s
).The rest was given away nearly for free.
We kept at least one exemplar of every interesting piece of equipment for studies and you also got everything you wanted.
wittmanace
Active Member
from a more neutral view (neither israeli, us camp nor syrian or iranian camp),
it seems that much of the analysis or views of arab armies is either based on previous conflicts (certain aspects thereof) and/or gulf wars 1 and 2. this seems to be a potential mistake.
a few examples:
it is forgotten that iraqi t-7s were using steel penetrators and also half charges, thus meaning that how the t72 fares in syrian hands (if they dont make these mistakes) is not necessarily anything like their performance in Iraqi hands. abrams tanks were hit by t72s, though not penetrated, meaning that the story could have been different if the abve points on rounds were different.
Iraq failed to use their airforce, and have traditionally used it as a mere ground support tool, rather than as a real airforce. syria is inferior in the air, but it would possibly fight hard, and in conjunction with sams (remember the sam effect in the sinai in 1973? only when this umbrella was left did the israeli airforce really come in and help turn the tide on initial egyptian victories). as for aerial combat plane to plane, lets not forget el mensourah, often overlooked in discussion of such scenarios.
it would also be nigh impossible for egypt and others to stay out of such a conflict, due to huge public interest and demands.....egypt does have abrams tanks... we have also seen the role of anti tank missiles in war vs israel, and i dare say this is a very real and very serious threat, akin to the sagger and so forth fronts in 1973 in the earlier days.
notably the jordanians came out of 1967 with a higher reputation ( ammuntion hill, for example).
an analysis of the bekaa valley contest between syrians and israelis in 1982 also showed something interesting...consider the syrian gunships' role, and the surprising performance of the syrian armoured units.
all i am saying in this post, without any prejudice or nationalist interest, is that the performance of these forces is an unknown, and really cannot be assumed to be as poor as some seem to think they must be. a great deal of the existing analysis and foundations for these assumptions is based on half information, and could lead to a catastrophic under estimation of enemy forces. it also cannot be known who exactly will do the fighting....remember that the situation in the ME has changed greatly in recent years.
as for the return of the golan...it might be necessary for israel to buy some very needed PR with it in the future, in return from guarantees, thoug i doubt theyd accept these from syria (more likely increased us aid and more us guarantess and or arms sales). politics may well be the factor above all others here, and it is no longer unimaginable that it will be politically necessary for israel to return lands the UN recognises as syrian. public opinion in most of the world is now against, rather than for israel after all ( at least this is how it seems to me..)
my 2 cents,
wittmanace
it seems that much of the analysis or views of arab armies is either based on previous conflicts (certain aspects thereof) and/or gulf wars 1 and 2. this seems to be a potential mistake.
a few examples:
it is forgotten that iraqi t-7s were using steel penetrators and also half charges, thus meaning that how the t72 fares in syrian hands (if they dont make these mistakes) is not necessarily anything like their performance in Iraqi hands. abrams tanks were hit by t72s, though not penetrated, meaning that the story could have been different if the abve points on rounds were different.
Iraq failed to use their airforce, and have traditionally used it as a mere ground support tool, rather than as a real airforce. syria is inferior in the air, but it would possibly fight hard, and in conjunction with sams (remember the sam effect in the sinai in 1973? only when this umbrella was left did the israeli airforce really come in and help turn the tide on initial egyptian victories). as for aerial combat plane to plane, lets not forget el mensourah, often overlooked in discussion of such scenarios.
it would also be nigh impossible for egypt and others to stay out of such a conflict, due to huge public interest and demands.....egypt does have abrams tanks... we have also seen the role of anti tank missiles in war vs israel, and i dare say this is a very real and very serious threat, akin to the sagger and so forth fronts in 1973 in the earlier days.
notably the jordanians came out of 1967 with a higher reputation ( ammuntion hill, for example).
an analysis of the bekaa valley contest between syrians and israelis in 1982 also showed something interesting...consider the syrian gunships' role, and the surprising performance of the syrian armoured units.
all i am saying in this post, without any prejudice or nationalist interest, is that the performance of these forces is an unknown, and really cannot be assumed to be as poor as some seem to think they must be. a great deal of the existing analysis and foundations for these assumptions is based on half information, and could lead to a catastrophic under estimation of enemy forces. it also cannot be known who exactly will do the fighting....remember that the situation in the ME has changed greatly in recent years.
as for the return of the golan...it might be necessary for israel to buy some very needed PR with it in the future, in return from guarantees, thoug i doubt theyd accept these from syria (more likely increased us aid and more us guarantess and or arms sales). politics may well be the factor above all others here, and it is no longer unimaginable that it will be politically necessary for israel to return lands the UN recognises as syrian. public opinion in most of the world is now against, rather than for israel after all ( at least this is how it seems to me..)
my 2 cents,
wittmanace
Thank`s for the info, thats really interesting about the KE training rounds versus the T-55 and T-72M1, that just shows how good the 120mm is.It was not so much about technology but more about general politics.
If the SU thought that a country should not be supported than no WarPac country was allowed to undermine this position.
We kept some Strela MANPADS mostly for training because it is much cheaper to fire them than Stingers. We also kept some Hinds but they were soon also given away because it was too expensive to operate them.
Some AKs are still in service for OPFOR.
Many tanks ended as hard targets at our firing ranges (Interesting to see that even a training KE round is a problem for T-55s and T-72M1s
The rest was given away nearly for free.
We kept at least one exemplar of every interesting piece of equipment for studies and you also got everything you wanted.
Ibizan Hound
Banned Member
Israel has won previous wars only because they were much much stronger. They have lost a few as well. But when nations are strong as or stronger than Israel, Israel gets scared. Syria could defeat israel but I doubt it.
You can trust that Russia doesn`t have boogy man tanks out there, the former DDR was the most trusted in the Soviets eyes as far as Warsaw Pact forces so their equipment wasn`t that far behind current soviet forces at that time. When the T-72M1 came on line all the world heard was how good this tank was and could challenge any current western tanks that were out there, it`s record speaks for itself, but still I would give these tanks as with any other tank deep respect on the battle field, being too overly confident will get you killed. Training and what type of ammunition play a big factor in any modern day gunfight also.
Oh really - that is why the first couple of go arounds the Isrealis relied on upgunned WW2 shermans to take on T-55`s and T-62`s. tell me what two wars that Isreal has lost, if I had a bunch of countries that surrounded me and has the mind set to wipe me off the face of the earth, I would be scared to.
If Israel had lost any of it's wars it wouldn't exist.
The sovjets removed some of their newest equipment. Mostly radio equipment, transciption, etc.
The GDR equipment was not first class but there were some really impressive things.
The T-72M1s would have been a real headache for the Leo 1, M60, Chieftain and AMX-30 tanks in the west and also a probem for Abrams and Leo II at small distances.
The western analysts were also very impressed by the MiG-29 capability to fire its missiles at very high angles and at different targets by using the helmet targeting system.
As often training is a main factor and the NAV was for sure one of the best trained armed forces in the world. But it was not that big with only a little bit more than 160.000 active soldiers (But huge reserves).
The GDR equipment was not first class but there were some really impressive things.
The T-72M1s would have been a real headache for the Leo 1, M60, Chieftain and AMX-30 tanks in the west and also a probem for Abrams and Leo II at small distances.
The western analysts were also very impressed by the MiG-29 capability to fire its missiles at very high angles and at different targets by using the helmet targeting system.
As often training is a main factor and the NAV was for sure one of the best trained armed forces in the world. But it was not that big with only a little bit more than 160.000 active soldiers (But huge reserves).
You got that right.If Israel had lost any of it's wars it wouldn't exist.
Did the majority of the GDR armed forces stay intact after the collapse, or did they disban.
radiosilence
jints
how so?If Israel had lost any of it's wars it wouldn't exist.
wittmanace
Active Member
well, that may not be true...in 1973 the offensives were to regain lost land as well as gain a stronger negotiating hand at talks...the egyptians just got greedy when it went well and extended the offensive operations. also, look at the war of attrition...
again, just my opinion,
wittmanace
again, just my opinion,
wittmanace
radiosilence
jints
also, lets not forget in 1973 our resupply bailed the israelis out...
You can rest assured that they have fixed any logistic issue`s that they may of had back then.
radiosilence
jints
whats your point?