Israel: Golan Heights Up for Grabs?

[radiosilence]

Dictatorship and democracy have been used as an excuse to commit aggression against others. egypt and jordan are dictatorships and israel have peace deals with them. do u really think syria can be a threat to isreal? the israelis are unmatched militarily in the region. keep in mind israel also have nuclear weapons, any threat posed to its security would be met accordingly. if it were to sign peace deals and return all the lands its occupying according to un resolutions, the extremist would be isolated and dealth with.

Borders tend to have less legitimacy after a Dictatorship, bent on the total annihilation of your people, attacks you without provocation. Most of all if/when such return of territory wouldn't result in a peace deal and instead would give trememdous strategic advantage to the Dictatorship bent on destroying you.

^its the same old repeated talking points the isreali pr people uses to justify their actions. this is not reality due israel's unmatched military might in the region.

 

[contedicavour]

The Golan is very rich in fresh water, which also means its very productive farmland. Everyone talks about its strategic value but the truth is its fresh water is just as important. Israel has a much larger population today then it had in 1967 and I just cant see them giving the keys to 1/3 their fresh water supply to the Syrians.

Interesting element I wasn't aware of, thanks.
Which other sources of fresh water does Israel rely on ?
Could it be one of the reasons why Israel wants to keep large bits of Cisjordanian region ?

cheers

 

[Rich]

Dictatorship and democracy have been used as an excuse to commit aggression against others. egypt and jordan are dictatorships and israel have peace deals with them. do u really think syria can be a threat to isreal? the israelis are unmatched militarily in the region. keep in mind israel also have nuclear weapons, any threat posed to its security would be met accordingly. if it were to sign peace deals and return all the lands its occupying according to un resolutions, the extremist would be isolated and dealth with.

^its the same old repeated talking points the isreali pr people uses to justify their actions. this is not reality due israel's unmatched military might in the region.

So you think arbitrarily giving the Golan back to Syria would guarantee peace for Israel? How would this cause the extremists "to be dealt with"? The Syrians cant even mouth the words "Israel has a right to exist" and your implying that giving back a 60 mile wide chunk of Land would make all things right. I myself dont see all these terror organizations quitting and getting day jobs just because the Israelis gave the Golan back to the Syrians.

And yes I do think having to retake the Golan back would be a huge undertaking. And regarding nukes you forget the Syrians have a large arsenal of chemical and bio weapons which they can deliver onto Israel in any number of ways.

Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Hamas, DFLP, PFLP, Fatah, PLO, who exactly, and how, would they be dealt with?

 

[radiosilence]

Borders tend to have less legitimacy after a Dictatorship, bent on the total annihilation of your people, attacks you without provocation. Most of all if/when such return of territory wouldn't result in a peace deal and instead would give trememdous strategic advantage to the Dictatorship bent on destroying you. .

^its the same old repeated talking points the isreali pr people uses to justify their actions. this is not reality due israel's unmatched military might in the region.

btw this ^ was what i have in my post.

So you think arbitrarily giving the Golan back to Syria would guarantee peace for Israel?

its part of a peace deal in case you didn't read my post properly the first time. its been done before with two of israel's enemies in the past(egypt and jordan). you give back land that don't belongs to you for PEACE.. . isreal return back the Sinai Peninsula back to egypt as part of their peace agreement.

The Syrians cant even mouth the words "Israel has a right to exist" and your implying that giving back a 60 mile wide chunk of Land would make all things right.

the syrian have said repeatedly in the last 5 years they would make peace with israel if israel returns back the golan to them. they will not be allies or anything like that but it would bring down the tension between syria and israel. i.e see egypt-israel relations.

http://faculty-staff.ou.edu/L/Joshu...08/jews-divided-over-assads-offer-of-land.htm

"Imad Mustapha, Syria's ambassador in Washington, and President Bashar al-Assad, in his speech two days ago, have been hammering home Syria's position: land for peace. Syria wants the Golan back and offers peace and an end to the ceaseless conflict in the region"


the rest of your post is not relevant to this topic..

 

[Rich]

syrian have said repeatedly in the last 5 years they would make peace with israel if israel returns back the golan to them. they will not be allies or anything like that but it would bring down the tension between syria and israel. i.e see egypt-israel relations.

They can say whatever they want. Their history would give no Israeli any comfort over what they are "saying". Even if that wretched Dictatorship decided they wanted to fly with the doves how would they convince the 99 some odd terror groups blowing up kiddie parties in Tel Aviv that they should put the bombs away and look for day jobs?

And the Syrian military? An almost entirely separate power block from Assad-son-of-Assad and company? How will they be convinced to backstab their Muslim brother they have been supplying and fighting with for so long? The entire idea of the Syrians uniting these armed mobs and instituting a grand peace in the region is farcical.

Giving up the Golan would be the most stupid thing the Israelis could ever do. I mean STUPID! Yaknow these Arabs always had the stated goal of annihilation of middle east Jewry as "National policy" and still do! [Admin Edit: Rich, please behave. Learn to respect others so they will respect you and try to express your opinion calmly.]such a strategic prize for what amounts to nothing in return.

Comparing Egypt and Syria is irrelevant. Before making peace with Israel Sadat moved Egypt into the Western camp, one where it still resides today. Not only isn't Syria in the "Western camp" its a real life Terror supporting State. Your comparison between the two is even more farcical then your original premise of a Syrian enforced peace.

 

[radiosilence]

Read your history and take a good look at what happen to losers over there in camel land before you start advocating giving such people such a strategic prize for what amounts to nothing in return

this says it all on the kind of person you are... the rest of your post is not worth responding to..

 

[Rich]

[Admin Edit: Rich, please behave. Learn to respect others so they will respect you and try to express your opinion calmly.]

 

[Waylander]

BTW, the arms sales of the west allowed him to hold his position during the Iran-Iarq war. Not everything is black and white.

 

[Rich]

BTW, the arms sales of the west allowed him to hold his position during the Iran-Iarq war. Not everything is black and white.

I would rephrase that and instead say, "arms sales from France and the Soviet Union mostly fainanced by Saddams Arab neighbors who were/are scared of a emerging Iran. The only thing America sold him was a small one time sale of unarmed trucks and helicopters. Additionaly we provided him with some Intel on the Iranian forces, at the behest of our Gulf friends who feared Iran would win.

The biggest "western" fingerprint, and the most, with Saddams weapons was Western European ones in his nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons programs.

Sorry if I offended anyone with my reference of "camel-land". I thought that was fairly benign but wont use it again.

 

[Waylander]

Ok, I did not mention the sovjets but what did I said especially against the US?
Di you always feel offended so fast?

 

[Rich]

Ok, I did not mention the sovjets but what did I said especially against the US?
Di you always feel offended so fast?

Nope I wasnt offended. You made a valid point that I tried to build on. Mostly tho it was Soviet arms that helped him survive his Iranian big adventure. But there was a fair share of murkey "western involvemnt" as well.

Actually I commend you for not spreading this "America made/armed Saddam" nonsense.

 

[Waylander]

Than I misunderstood you, sorry.

I never intended to only blame the US for supporting Saddam in the past. Because of that I wrote "the west". There is also a picture of Chirac and Saddam.
What I just wanted to show that the world os not divided into black and white.

 

[Awang se]

Well, it's not to say that Israel can't defeat Syrian forces and drive all the way to Damascus, but the 60 miles from the Israel border to Damascus is one of the most heavily fortified places on earth. it can be done, but it will be costly.

 

[Xerxesa]

Most weapons to Iraq during Iran Iraq war, did came from France and USSR. Nevertheless it was Carter Admin that gave the green light in 1980 for the invasion. The Soviet infact were not too pleased of their client state behaviour toward Iran. They stopped their arm shipment in 1980 only to re-start shipping after the iranian invaded Iraq proper.

[Admin: txtx deleted. fair enough comments as your own observation, but this kind of stuff will trigger latent racist responses all by itself. The mods will be enthusiastic in deleting anything that can blow out of hand due to national sensitivities or zealous people defending their country etc... This response is almost guaranteed to disrupt and wake up the less mature posters]

 

[Ibizan Hound]

You are right about 1973 history. My point, as you mention in your post, is more about today's relative capabilities. An air force with standoff missile capabilities, anti-missile missiles and ECM can today easily handle enemy SAM batteries. Today's artillery is so much more accurate against enemy armoured units approaching well entrenched defensive positions. Last but not least, early warning systems such as drones reduce to nil any chance of a massive suprise attack.
That's why I believe the IDF cannot in any case be pushed out of the Golan heights unless by a political deal.
Hezbollahs for all their successes in Lebanon can run guerrilla operations but not expel an entrenched army from such a natural fortress. Today's regular Arab armies are less capable today than in 1973. So basically there's nobody to pull off such an exploit !
cheers

That's so wrong Syria is vastly stranger than even Iraq was in Iran/Iraq War except for manpower.
Syria has 4,700 tanks, around 500 aircraft(14Su-27s), a bit over 200,000 soldiers and over 100 missile launchers. They are somewhat stronger than Iran and Israel but perform poorly. Most of their 'defeats' were not as they were publicized. Syria's airforce at one time shot 5 Israeli aircrafts down but was reported as having lost all of their aircraft and Israel lost none. Syria has very poor airdefences and the Israeli fly-over could have been an assassination. They have improved this a bit and have repelled Israeli fly-overs since then. They need to defend airfilds. But if war broke-out it would be entertaining now that Israel is weaker than Syria.

 

[Waylander]

Weaker than Syria?
Should we reply to that?
This comment is backed up by what?

 

[eckherl]

Most weapons to Iraq during Iran Iraq war, did came from France and USSR. Nevertheless it was Carter Admin that gave the green light in 1980 for the invasion. The Soviet infact were not too pleased of their client state behaviour toward Iran. They stopped their arm shipment in 1980 only to re-start shipping after the iranian invaded Iraq proper.

[Admin: txtx deleted. fair enough comments as your own observation, but this kind of stuff will trigger latent racist responses all by itself. The mods will be enthusiastic in deleting anything that can blow out of hand due to national sensitivities or zealous people defending their country etc... This response is almost guaranteed to disrupt and wake up the less mature posters]

Let`s not forget that Poland shipped Iraq the majority of T-72 tanks that they recieved during this time frame when Russia stopped shipments.

 

[Waylander]

Do you think Poland exported anything the SU did not want to be exported?

 

[eckherl]

That's so wrong Syria is vastly stranger than even Iraq was in Iran/Iraq War except for manpower.
Syria has 4,700 tanks, around 500 aircraft(14Su-27s), a bit over 200,000 soldiers and over 100 missile launchers. They are somewhat stronger than Iran and Israel but perform poorly. Most of their 'defeats' were not as they were publicized. Syria's airforce at one time shot 5 Israeli aircrafts down but was reported as having lost all of their aircraft and Israel lost none. Syria has very poor airdefences and the Israeli fly-over could have been an assassination. They have improved this a bit and have repelled Israeli fly-overs since then. They need to defend airfilds. But if war broke-out it would be entertaining now that Israel is weaker than Syria.

Yea - and how many times have Isreals neighbors felt that they were stronger
only to get a good old fashion butt whuppin. The only country over there that may give Isreal a real challenge would be Egypt.

 

[eckherl]

Do you think Poland exported anything the SU did not want to be exported?

Are you trying to tell me that Poland had to get clearance thru Mother Russia.
And here all along I felt that Poland was giving her the one finger salute.