China to build aircraft carrier

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Just a gentle suggestion. We're travelling dangerously close to getting into politics which means that the post could end up in the Defence Professionals forum rather than in here.

To keep it in here we probably need to keep discussions centred around the tactical and strategic rather than the idealogical and philosophical.
 
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Francois

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
gf0012-aust said:
Just a gentle suggestion. We're travelling dangerously close to getting into politics which means that the post could end up in the Defence Pprfessionals forum rather than in here.

To keep it in here we probably need to keep discussions centred around the tactical and strategic rather than the idealogical and philosophical.
I agree, and being my fault, I will stop talking politics here.
Thanks for the reminder.
Back to topic, do you think they have an anti-asbestos program? (just kidding).
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Francois said:
I am scared that you are getting paranoid.
First, there is nothing like lova and hate in a diplomatic game.
Second, the US is not treating China like a bad boy, but rather like the boy who wants to re-write the rules that everybody agreed to play with at first.
If China gets clear on its intentions, and don't act like a rogue, then its image will be far improved! And everybody will be really feeling better.

But again I belive they can't tell their purposes, because untellable...
But this is my own vision.
I think you are getting paranoid. China has made clear its intentions. It wants to be a strong nation, secure its energy supply and prevent Taiwan from formally separating. I guess you haven't read all the reports about Neocons calling China the greatest threat to America's hegemony or the realignment of American ships/fighters to better cope with China or the constant questioning of China's military expenditure when India does the same thing. Oh yeah, this might be news to you, but India's defense budget isn't the 15 billion that it claims either and it actually purchased more weapon than China in this past year.

What rules did China re-write?

Does China invade Iraq? Does China spend all day meddling into other countries' affiars? Does China spend all day acting like the world's policeman?

You do realize that China did better in the likability poll than America in most of America's so called allied countries, right? This was a big news a few month back when it was published. Maybe Rumsfeld should take a note and realize most countries are more scared of America's intentions.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
gf0012-aust said:
Just a gentle suggestion. We're travelling dangerously close to getting into politics which means that the post could end up in the Defence Professionals forum rather than in here.

To keep it in here we probably need to keep discussions centred around the tactical and strategic rather than the idealogical and philosophical.
sorry, my bad.
 

PLA2025

New Member
China acting like a rogue?
Come on!
The US has been playing "world police" for decades and extremely since GW Bush came to power! The US (a nation that was founded less than 300 years ago by Europeans) wants to lecture a nation called China that has over 3000 years of recorded history. Would you accept to get lectured by a much younger nation?
China will continue its naval modernization but they do it mainly for securing their own coasts and seas while the US wants to dominate all seas!
China is also not getting aircraft carriers to compete with the US or anyone else but wants them to give it's deployment capability more flexibilty.
Power projection with aircraft carriers? That's what the US does to the max but the Chinese PLAN might only have them deployed in the East and South China Sea.
The strategic policy between China and the US is different. The US has still not get rid of the cold war mentality and showcase their weapons to the publics while the Chinese (after the philosophy of Deng Xiaping) hide their real strength as much as they can. The only one China is showing its teeth is Taiwan. I just hope that leaders from both sides of the next generations are more diplomatic and less stubborn than their predecessors.
 

KGB

New Member
I'm not sure that China's south east asian neighbors would welcome seeing the PLAN project it's power into the spratlys.
 

PLA2025

New Member
India and Australia have medium sized aircraft carriers already and South Korea is getting a light aircraft carriers for helicopters. It is just a matter of time when China gets their first carriers in the East and South China Sea. I think you must also consider that most Asian countries don't welcome the troop and carrier battle group presence of the US forces too. They just remind too much of the colonial times when the Brits, Spanish and French occupied most Asian countries and claimed theirs. China's aircraft carrier will very unlikely leave the its own seas unless being invited by a partner strategic state like Thailand, Australia, Pakistan, Russia etc.

I think it's ok for China to have 2 or 3 medium sized aircraft carriers (between 50.000-80.000 tons) and having some small helicopter carriers, but they really don't need carrier battle groups like the US do have. China needs it to increase its capability to intercept invading forces by fighting them in the blue water regions in case of a war but doesn't need to waste money to deploy 5 or more carriers. Aquiring more than 5 aircraft carriers (including 100.000 tons displacement) would be sending a wrong signal to other nations iMO.
 

turin

New Member
Well, currently Australia has no carrier whatsoever. They had one though and I take it, they might get another one in the future.
Also a size between 50k and 80k tons is a bit beyond "medium carriers". Actually an 80k carrier is exactly what the first american super carriers were.
I agree that China has not so much need for blue water capabilities as the US, since its geographical situation is a bit different. Yet it is pretty clear to me, that in the long-term China will_have certain interest in parts of the world a bit more away from home, esp. in combination with securing natural ressources and the like. Already its establishing solid relations with african countries.
However, since this thread and in fact this part of the forum is not for politics, all I want to say with this is, that China will certainly have need for some power projection capabilities in the future and I take it, thats what such things as fleet air defence and training on some kind of carrier vessel might be useful for.

Also I think, the current evolution of carriers is quite clear. The era of small, "cheap" sea control ships in the like of Invincible class, Garibaldi and Asturias is almost over. All countries are going for larger carriers, this being most obvious for the UK and France, but on a reduced scale for Spain and Italy as well. I think, a size around 60k tons is the way (so I guess, I agree here too).
 

PLA2025

New Member
yeah, I think that China's PLAN will deploy something like the Varyag (which has been repainting and obviously restored to some degree) and maybe some smaller carrier designs. I prefer carriers of displacement between 50-70.000 tons for deploying Su-33 and J-10C carrying anti-ship missiles and medium- to long-range AAMs for intercepting intruders (NOT the A-6 Intruder :)) while having some 30.000 tons helicopter carriers for Z-9 armed with torpedos, M-171 transporters and WZ-10 attack helicopter to operate in the green water regions (Island chains etc.). My guess is that China will "revive" the Varyag with some own tunings while developing an indigenious design probably containing elements from the former Australian carrier and the Varyag. I heard from a source that China intends to deploy at least one carrier in the Varyag class and one carrier in the Kiev class. But right now it is still a rumor.
 
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batavian

New Member
As i'm new in this forum i've enjoyed everyones comments before posting my own I agree with quite abit of gfoo12-aust comments. however the interesting thing I noticed about the article was the cost.According to the the article
the chinese can build a large naval vessal for the cost of two f-22's.in regards to tactics I'm reminded of an article that appeared in the Wall street journal in1995 in regards to the graduation exercise of the us war college it
featured an invasion of tiawan with the us carrier groups being bombarded by sattalite guided ballistic missles the article was very compeling is anyone formiliar with this study? do you know how Icould view this exercise in it's entirerty.
my thougts were that if they could connect with even a few missles that would force the us air cover to move along a more limited air corridor from bases in japan assuming okinawa war also hit enough to severly limit sortie number.sorties coming from japan would be in range of even more plaf aircraft.In this scenario a chinese carrior would allow the pla to bring more verticle envelopment assets closer to the beaches to support an amphibious landing with the us amphibious task force being engaged by supersonic anti-ship missles
fired from older aircraft converted into uav's as mentioned in the recent paper posted on the us defense dept. website in any case they will act in accordance with mao ste tung's maxim and engage only when they feel they have the advantage
 

armage

New Member
PLA2025 said:
yeah, I think that China's PLAN will deploy something like the Varyag (which has been repainting and obviously restored to some degree) and maybe some smaller carrier designs. I prefer carriers of displacement between 50-70.000 tons for deploying Su-33 and J-10C carrying anti-ship missiles and medium- to long-range AAMs for intercepting intruders (NOT the A-6 Intruder :)) while having some 30.000 tons helicopter carriers for Z-9 armed with torpedos, M-171 transporters and WZ-10 attack helicopter to operate in the green water regions (Island chains etc.). My guess is that China will "revive" the Varyag with some own tunings while developing an indigenious design probably containing elements from the former Australian carrier and the Varyag. I heard from a source that China intends to deploy at least one carrier in the Varyag class and one carrier in the Kiev class. But right now it is still a rumor.
WZ-10? I don't think China's is going to invade any country soon.... Personally I can't see the PLAN navy with a CBG or AC before they solve the Taiwan conflict. If they do get one the only reason is to fight Taiwan. Why don't they just put J-10C or Su-33 and Helix on the Varyag? Will the M-171 even fit? One thing they got to get is AWACs, will the Russians sell their modified Helix to China? Are they going to get PARS on the Varyag and upgrade with their own weapons, like HQ-9 for AAW and YJ-83 for ASuW?
 

EW3

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
armage said:
... If they do get one the only reason is to fight Taiwan....
Have to wonder what the value of an aircraft carrier is to the PLAN against Taiwan. You're only talking 100-200 nm for the PLAAF to travel to hit Taiwan. The carrier would be a hinderence, not an assett.
With the ROC Navy having Harpoons on quite a few ship types, a carrier is just an expensive target.
 

turin

New Member
I guess he means the broader approach involving US assistance in form of a CBG. A carrier for exclusive use against taiwanese installations and assets would be a waste of time indeed. For that mission the PLAN is more in the need of capable LHA/LPD designs and maybe a helo carrier, though the ships with docking capacity rank higher on my list.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
turin said:
I guess he means the broader approach involving US assistance in form of a CBG. A carrier for exclusive use against taiwanese installations and assets would be a waste of time indeed. For that mission the PLAN is more in the need of capable LHA/LPD designs and maybe a helo carrier, though the ships with docking capacity rank higher on my list.
If the balloon goes up in the Taiwan Straits, I reckon any major surface combatant that hasn't "gotten out of Dodge" is going to be part of a SINKEX/HULKEX within 30 mins.

The Straits are the last place you'd want to be in if you're in a major surface combatant.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
PLA2025 said:
The US has been playing "world police" for decades and extremely since GW Bush came to power! The US (a nation that was founded less than 300 years ago by Europeans) wants to lecture a nation called China that has over 3000 years of recorded history. Would you accept to get lectured by a much younger nation?

and...

The strategic policy between China and the US is different. The US has still not get rid of the cold war mentality and showcase their weapons to the publics while the Chinese (after the philosophy of Deng Xiaping) hide their real strength as much as they can. The only one China is showing its teeth is Taiwan. I just hope that leaders from both sides of the next generations are more diplomatic and less stubborn than their predecessors.
I suggest we are treading on political ground here and it could get unnecessirly ugly. Using your arguement Taiwan has a pretty good claim to continue to exist as it is the 'older' chinese government. The issue appear to be more of one that relates to self determination.

The fact is China is exerting tremondous economic influance (aided by a pegged currency) and at the same time is undergoing a period of miltiary modernisation. India is also modernisng. Ignoring the position of the US you have to consider that this escalation in capability makes others in the region just a trite nervous.
 

turin

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
The Straits are the last place you'd want to be in if you're in a major surface combatant.
Granted. Yet somehow they have to get all their PLA stuff over to Taiwan. I mean, they really cant storm the beaches with Type 95s only. The current sea lift capabilities are more than insufficient in that regard. Also I'd take it, the PLAAF/PLAN would have to take care of other threats (air and sea) before bringing in something like a LPD etc.
 

armage

New Member
turin said:
Granted. Yet somehow they have to get all their PLA stuff over to Taiwan. I mean, they really cant storm the beaches with Type 95s only. The current sea lift capabilities are more than insufficient in that regard. Also I'd take it, the PLAAF/PLAN would have to take care of other threats (air and sea) before bringing in something like a LPD etc.
More like the 2nd artiliary launching their 600 missiles at Taiwan first.... But I see the CBG as a force to block the USN if they come.... But then again bush has shown us he can move all CBG of teh USN to the pacific, so I guess on PLAN CBG can't stand all that
 

Wild Weasel

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
As has been stated already, the PRC must first develop the neccessary technology, and learn to apply it, before a PLAN carrier battle group could ever be considered a threat. Varyag's engines and associated equipment was removed prior to the sale- has she been refitted with a powerplant/engineering equipment yet? She was completely de-militarized by the government of Ukrain as per condition of sale. Have her weapons mounts, sensors and countermeasures been replaced?
If none of the above has yet been addressed, then China is still years away from re-launching this ship. What's more, as we saw with the fiasco of the DeGaul, simply putting a hull in the water is certainly NOT the final chapter in making her combat-ready.

They've got to have a reliable means of maintaining some kind of operational security regarding the position, and composition of their fleet. And since it's impossible to hide from EVERYONE'S prying eyes, they've also got to be able to defend it. Failure to devote/develop assets to defend their carrier would bring about it's rapid destruction.
Carrier-borne AWAC's isn't simply a nice thing to have- it's absolutely VITAL. Shipboard advanced sensors and networked comms/data is also VITAL. The capabilty to salvo SAMs, and guide them reliably to intecept dozens of inbound ASM's, is VITAL. The ability to take a hit, and survive the damage is VITAL.

Now, I am a firm believer that given will-power, time, and money- almost any problem can be overcome, but to say that the PRC is facing a LONG, HARD up-hill slog trying to get that old Soviet carrier back into operation is the understatement of the year. And keep in mind, they are trying to catch up to a nation that has been highly successful at building and operating CTOL super carriers for the better half of a century. The US navy isn't struggling uphill to make ONE CBG an operational asset- they are strolling downhill, while building the follow-on to the Nimitz-class CVN.

EVERYONE knows that the primary purpose of the PRC for building a carrier is in anticipation for a conflict over Taiwan, and/or the Spratley Islands.
So, knowing this- doesn't it make sense that EVERY naval power with access to the region will be developing plans and means for neutralizing the PRC's ONLY carrier? In the event of open conflict, every anti-ship asset from the East Coast of Africa, to the West Coast of North, and South America will be focussed on finding and destroying the PLAN Varyag CVBG. The ASM threat would be far beyond the means of the PLAN's current and projected capabilites to defend against- but the threat from anti-ship torpedoes is beyond measure. Everyone should already be aware that there are a sufficient number of USN SSN's to make sure one is constantly tasked to tail and destroy China's carrier. This was an eventuality that was practiced with Soviet HVM's. This will undoubtedly remain to be the USN's operational doctrine when, and if, the PLAN ever floats a carrier hull.
The MK48 ADCAP, and whatever is produced to replace it- are currently capable of breaking a cruiser-class surface target's back with a single hit. It's safe to assume that a prudent SSN skipper is going to launch a brace of no less than four torpedoes at a time, to ensure that he is forever immortalized as the man who sunk China's naval pride and joy.
If necessary, he is more than capable of launching an additional four- just because he can.
So, is China going to develop and field a sufficient number of advanced SSN's, that can take on any of the LA/Seawolf/Virginia-class boats- and win?

The first and second operational squadrons of F/A-22 Raptors are already nearing combat-readiness. Provided with forward basing, and AAR from Okinawa- it wouldn't be unimaginable that these Raptors would be able to provide continuos air-superiority/dominance over the Taiwan Straits, and the South China Sea.
It is a fact that a single Raptor has taken on, and defeated a four-plane flight of F-15's in mock engagements. It was said to have been an overwhelming, almost humiliating defeat for the Eagle pilots.
The Raptor is probably equal to the B-2 in terms of stealth, but of course it is much faster, and more nimble.
Further, The Raptors have recently proven that they can deliver the JDAM PGM with pin-point accuracy- a weapon that could be used to target and destroy a large vessel like the Varyag with relative ease.
So, even assuming that the Varyag can be loaded and operate a small number of Su-33's, how well can they defend a CVBG from the Raptor? The reality is, the Superhornet with AMRAAM is still a serious threat- but the Raptor is more dangerous by an order of magnitude.

If China cannot maintain air-superiorty over their carrier flagship, and their intended area of operation- the Varyag CVBG would be nothing more than a liability. It would be a smoking hole in the ocean where once a mighty carrier sailed.
 

Jeff Head

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Wild Weasel said:
If none of the above has yet been addressed, then China is still years away from re-launching this ship.
Given what they already have done, I would say that oif they were completely serious and dedicated to the task, that they could have her on trials around 2008...showing off for the Olympics. Whether that will happen or not is a completely different matter.
Wild Weasel said:
What's more, as we saw with the fiasco of the DeGaul, simply putting a hull in the water is certainly NOT the final chapter in making her combat-ready.
Agreed whole heartidly. And the French had significant experience going in to the De Gaulle events.
Wild Weasel said:
The US navy isn't struggling uphill to make ONE CBG an operational asset- they are strolling downhill, while building the follow-on to the Nimitz-class CVN.
I would have to take issue with this statement. The USN should njot be characterized as "strolling downhill" with the development of the CVN-21 program. Very difficult cutting edge technology is being developed for her, along with the monumental task of constructing a super carrier, that is meant to keep that class orders of magnitude ahead of any potential aggressor.
Wild Weasel said:
EVERYONE knows that the primary purpose of the PRC for building a carrier is in anticipation for a conflict over Taiwan, and/or the Spratley Islands. If China cannot maintain air-superiorty over their carrier flagship, and their intended area of operation- the Varyag CVBG would be nothing more than a liability. It would be a smoking hole in the ocean where once a mighty carrier sailed.
Eveything you say here is true...but the USN can not dare underestimate the PRC or PLAN, nor can other regional nations. In a conflict ver the Spratleys or Taiwan, the PRC and PLAN will understand the same things the US does, and will try and plan and fight accordingly. In such a confrontation you can bet that:

1. The PLAN will not move until they have many, many advanced SSKs (a couple of dozen or more) infesting the litoral waters where the conflict will occur. This will make for a dangerous environment for US subs and surface ships of any type.

2. The conflict will take place near the PRC mainland bases and they will have significant ground based air capability...hundreds and hundreds of aircraft...to commit if they so choose. They will be on the short leg of the sortie envelope, and if they acquire and train hard with sufficient numbers of new SU-30s, SU-27s, J-11s, J-10s and add more AWACS in the intervening time, air superiority and dominance will be hotly contested.

3. Any PLAN carrier will probably stand well off to the north in the most protected waters the PLAN has, trying to draw US aircraft and warships into very dangerous environemnts. I doubt the PLAN carrier would be close to either Taiwan or the Spratelys in any such crisis. They would hold her back with three or four new area air defense vessels and a myriad of subs and surround her with huge ground based air hoping to draw US assetts in.

I have no doubt as to the outcome of such a conflict if it were heartily and fully engaged...the problem is that the PRC will probably also wait on having a differnt administration in office in the US who they can hope to economically and militarily bluff into not taking a "risk" their poll numbers, particularly in a first term of, say a democratic admin.

That is probably their biggest chance for success, and one they are also aware of. I do not expect to see any kind of challenge in that regard until 2009-2010, with the PLAN and PLAAF, and PLA continuing to modernize and build up at a healthy rate through the entire period...and then only depending on who is in the White House.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 

Wild Weasel

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You certainly have some valid points there, Jeff. If I came across as if I thought a shooting war with China would be a cake walk for the US, then clearly that would be wrong. I realize that the PRC is currently a serious threat to the US military hegemony in the region, and that they will continue to make advances which will make America's military advantages even less clear than they are now.

That said, and considering the '09/'10 time frame- the PRC will have to contend with American advances as well. By that time, the CVN-21 should be complete, the JSF should be in production, the first of DDX-class ( if it doesn't get cancelled ) should either be completed and nearing operational status, or getting close to the former. There will be at least 2-3 more SSN-74's in service, and at least two of the Ohio SSGN's will have been completed.
The Superhornet production run will be complete, and most aircraft would be receiving mission-essential upgrades. The Superhornets would have replaced the F/A-18C/D throughout the fleet, and the E/F-18G will have replaced the EA-6B as the fleet's primary OECM asset.

One must also keep in mind, that the US and Taiwan are not likely going be the only nations to enter into a shooting war with the PRC. Japan, South Korea, Australia, the Philippines- and possibly Thailand and Singapore are almost guaranteed to be involved. A sizeable coalition could be formed, due to these nations proximity to the area, dependence on the Taiwan Straits for oil shipments, alliance with Taiwan as an important trade partner- and simply because any PRC invasion of Taiwanese territory would clearly be viewed by the world to be an overt, unjustifiable hostile action.
The entire UN, and international economic community would be in a total uproar.

All of this should be a serious concern to the PLAN, who already have many technological hurdles to overcome, and much to learn about operating a CVBG as part of it's national defense strategy.

Now, if I have offended anyone who might have political sensibilites, I appologize before hand- that was certainly not my intention, and I tried to avoid those obvious implications as much as possible.

As to the position of future US administration's... I'm staying as far from that discussion as I can possibly get. :D
 
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