Yugoslavia, 1999. MiG-29 vs F-16AM, using AMRAAM.
(in the other engagement vs F-15E, the MiGs' radar was supposedly not working)
AMRAAM and R-77 performance review
- Thread starter Awang se
- Start date
(in the other engagement vs F-15E, the MiGs' radar was supposedly not working)
ya well thanks for that,so well except the figures there is nothing reliable available.
contedicavour
New Member
In both cases MIG's radar was either not working at all or suffered from concentrated ECM (after all they was the only planes airborne).
There was no ECM package installed on these MIG's. There was no ECM help from other friendly assets.
As i said, average training drone present more challenge than these MIG's.
1. Yugoslavian Mig-29 was not R-77 capable
2. I even doubt it had R-73 instead of R-60.
3. It had R-27 in best case.
4. Mig-29 had no chances either way due to altitude disadvantage (even if we disregard ECM, not working radar, etc).
As i said - training drone present more challenge.
A
Aussie Digger
Guest
Singapore hasn't stopped Malaysia from buying AMRAAM. The US decides which country is allowed to acquire AMRAAM, no-one else.
Starting conspiracy theories will get you nowhere here.
I agree with Aussie Digger . I don't think any country with the possible exception of UK and to a small extent Israel has the clout with US to stop a possible weapon sale by US to another country and that too only in the rarest of rare cases .
What i understand is that US itself has a policy against handling weapon system it considers sufficiently advanced ( amraam is one example) to destabilize strategic balance , to foregin countries .
Guys feel free to correct me if i am worng.
It is for sure!
skywalker1901
New Member
Russia has a history of coping technology.
Their first air to air missle were a copy of the sidewinder the US used in Vietnam. As you probally know they made good use of the F-14 radar and avionics they got from Iran.
The first prototype mig of the 80s I think (don't qoute me on it) was almost a exact copy in design of the F-15.
I've seen a sketch of the next generation steath fighter the pak 50 it's design is nearly duplicate to the F-22.
I've heard stories that Russia nor India currently don't have the technology they want to put into the aircraft. That is the technology they are trying to acquire.
They recently offered South Korea some of their most advanced missle technology. I wonder what they want in return.
Their first air to air missle were a copy of the sidewinder the US used in Vietnam. As you probally know they made good use of the F-14 radar and avionics they got from Iran.
The first prototype mig of the 80s I think (don't qoute me on it) was almost a exact copy in design of the F-15.
I've seen a sketch of the next generation steath fighter the pak 50 it's design is nearly duplicate to the F-22.
I've heard stories that Russia nor India currently don't have the technology they want to put into the aircraft. That is the technology they are trying to acquire.
They recently offered South Korea some of their most advanced missle technology. I wonder what they want in return.
And USA has a history of copying technology too.
Their first a2a ir missile -sidewinder was a copy of luftwaffes Enzian developed in peenemunde.
as you probably know, their first (and russias first) sam was a copy of wasserfall.
their first jet etc, in fact, nearly all their weaponry (exept GPS and laser) is just modification on german stuff, and initially made by germans, werner fon braun comes to mind
Russia as well as USA has history of coping eachother tehnicly advanced designes .. there are fow of that cases but exists on both cases.
You can not say what will PAK-FA look like since no one has seen it. And about tehnology ... lol man you have no idea what you are talking about and Im not about to be one that will teach you ...
Russia will not get anything for giving South Korea ToT for somewhat smaller capabilities S-400 system .. it is a repayment as a part of Soviet debt to S.Korea.
Aliph Ahmed
Banned Member
I was reading an article which said that due to complex algorithm codes, AMRAAMs can be restricted against targetting specific aircrafts.
The article specifically pointed out the inability of AMRRAMs sold to UAE to be able to target Israeli warplanes.
How true is that ? and can it be possible ?
The article specifically pointed out the inability of AMRRAMs sold to UAE to be able to target Israeli warplanes.
How true is that ? and can it be possible ?
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Apart from the grab for German scientests and tech advances in 45-46, I disagree with this satatement. There is a real difference between the evoloution of technology and the US coppying/useing German made stuff. If your going to sight the M-16 as simply an evoloution of the MP-44, well allthough the MP-44 was the first firearm to use intermediate ammunition, was an evoloution of the semi automatic rifle which first saw real service with the Americans in the M1 Garand. If your going to sight modern LMG's like the M-60 and Minimi/SAW as a copy or based on the MG-42, well the MG-42 can be traced all back through the MG-32 to the Maxim gun invented by an American (or all the way bak to the gatling gun, again an American invention). Even jet engines were actually first designed by the british. The V1 was an eveoloution of an idea first trialed in WW1. The only real breakthrough tech the germans used was balistic missile technology.
There is a difference between matching capabilities and copying designs, i beleave there is in fact a relatively low instance of each other copying technology. When one came out with a new advance in capability the other would do what they needed to match it, and sometimes they went down similar paths.Viktor said:
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
I doubt it, the AIM 120's seeker would have to be capable of identifying the target by radar signature.
wiki/Wasserfall_missile
The Wasserfall Ferngelenkte Flakrakete (English: Waterfall Remote-Controlled A-A Rocket, also known as Aggregat 5)[1] was a World War II guided surface-to-air missile developed at Peenemünde, Germany. One of the German Wunderwaffen, the Wasserfall design was used as a basis for both the American Hermes-A1 missile and a Soviet research programme under the codename R-101 after World War II.
wiki/Enzian_missile
........Years later the United States Navy adopted this system and perfected it in the development of the AIM-9 Sidewinder air to air missile.
/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_guided_missiles_of_Germany
During World War II, Germany developed many missile systems.
These included the first cruise missile, the first short-range ballistic missile, the first guided surface-to-air missiles, and the first anti-ship missiles.
wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
Between 1950 and 1956, von Braun led the Army's rocket development team at Redstone Arsenal, resulting in the Redstone rocket, which was used for the first live nuclear ballistic missile tests conducted by the United States.
hardly any 45-46 wouldnt you say ?
The Wasserfall Ferngelenkte Flakrakete (English: Waterfall Remote-Controlled A-A Rocket, also known as Aggregat 5)[1] was a World War II guided surface-to-air missile developed at Peenemünde, Germany. One of the German Wunderwaffen, the Wasserfall design was used as a basis for both the American Hermes-A1 missile and a Soviet research programme under the codename R-101 after World War II.
wiki/Enzian_missile
........Years later the United States Navy adopted this system and perfected it in the development of the AIM-9 Sidewinder air to air missile.
/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_guided_missiles_of_Germany
During World War II, Germany developed many missile systems.
These included the first cruise missile, the first short-range ballistic missile, the first guided surface-to-air missiles, and the first anti-ship missiles.
wiki/Wernher_von_Braun
Between 1950 and 1956, von Braun led the Army's rocket development team at Redstone Arsenal, resulting in the Redstone rocket, which was used for the first live nuclear ballistic missile tests conducted by the United States.
hardly any 45-46 wouldnt you say ?
Ozzy Blizzard
New Member
Again grabed in 45-46, which is what i said...
Anyway this system was reliant upon radar detection and track which was pionered by the allies.
Again what they grabed immediartly after the war in 45-46.
I'm sure they did. Thakyou wiki....
: The first cruise missile was tested in 1916 IIRC, ofcource it was prop powed and stupidly inacurate but it WAS a cruise missile. i'll try and dig up a link.
At which time i'm pretty sure he was an American citizen. Anyway he was grabed by the yanks in, guess when??? 1945-46, which funilly enough what i said.
Um, actually I would say preceisely in 45-46. 1 or two technological evoloutions is hardly "nearly all their weaponry" is it? Just a few jumps foreward in missile tech. Anyway you could argue that all of the germans work was based on work done by those before on missile's, i.e. based on the work of Emporer Lizong's sceintists/alchemists in 1264. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket
Which is my whole point. Everyones work is based on someone elses, even the Germans. therefore its pointless to make statements like "nearly all of their (US's) weponary is based on work done by the germans" becasue even if thet was the case nearly all of the work done by the germans was based on the work done by someone else.
von braun became us citizen on april 15, 1955
Jet engines can be dated back to the first century AD, when Hero of Alexandria invented the aeolipile. This used steam power directed through two jet nozzles...
....He 178 airframe and flown by Erich Warsitz in the early morning of August 27, 1939, from Marienehe aerodrome, an impressively short time for development. The He 178 was the world's first jet plane.
Meanwhile, Whittle's engine was starting to look useful, and his Power Jets Ltd. started receiving Air Ministry money. In 1941 a flyable version of the engine called the W.1, capable of 1000 lbf (4 kN) of thrust, was fitted to the Gloster E28/39 airframe specially built for it, and first flew on May 15, 1941 at RAF Cranwell.
i guess i didnt say they were coppying/using german stuff,
if memory serves, i said:
"nearly all their weaponry (exept GPS and laser) is just modification on german stuff, and initially made by germans, werner fon braun comes to mind",
modification like aim9 sidewinder etc etc and so forth.
and yes, i didnt mention nuclear weapons, the intention
was not to point out every little piece of weaponry, but rather to point out
that ussr isnt the only one imitating, as skywalker was so indignant over.
when you said 45-46, i interpreted it like all the german stuff and german engineers etc had played out their role in history, and that none of todays technologies has their roots in nazi technology, i guess i interpreted wrong.
you wrote the only breakthrough was ballistic missiles.
i consider a2a missiles was a breakthrough in a2a battles,
otherwise they'd still be doin biggles-baron gun dogfights.
same goes for naval warfare, no missiles, only guns and torpedoes.
and so forth...
Jet engines can be dated back to the first century AD, when Hero of Alexandria invented the aeolipile. This used steam power directed through two jet nozzles...
....He 178 airframe and flown by Erich Warsitz in the early morning of August 27, 1939, from Marienehe aerodrome, an impressively short time for development. The He 178 was the world's first jet plane.
Meanwhile, Whittle's engine was starting to look useful, and his Power Jets Ltd. started receiving Air Ministry money. In 1941 a flyable version of the engine called the W.1, capable of 1000 lbf (4 kN) of thrust, was fitted to the Gloster E28/39 airframe specially built for it, and first flew on May 15, 1941 at RAF Cranwell.
i guess i didnt say they were coppying/using german stuff,
if memory serves, i said:
"nearly all their weaponry (exept GPS and laser) is just modification on german stuff, and initially made by germans, werner fon braun comes to mind",
modification like aim9 sidewinder etc etc and so forth.
and yes, i didnt mention nuclear weapons, the intention
was not to point out every little piece of weaponry, but rather to point out
that ussr isnt the only one imitating, as skywalker was so indignant over.
when you said 45-46, i interpreted it like all the german stuff and german engineers etc had played out their role in history, and that none of todays technologies has their roots in nazi technology, i guess i interpreted wrong.
you wrote the only breakthrough was ballistic missiles.
i consider a2a missiles was a breakthrough in a2a battles,
otherwise they'd still be doin biggles-baron gun dogfights.
same goes for naval warfare, no missiles, only guns and torpedoes.
and so forth...
mid-course update
The Europeans tested the non-mid-course-update version of AIM-120, and its kill probability dropped below that of their existing Skyflash weapon.
Flanker will most certainly be equipped with a Threat Warning System that listens for Raptors AIM-120 mid-course update (data burst transmission) after F-22 weapon release. From here two (2) things could happen. First, the Threat Warning System triggers automatic release of expendables (chaff/flares). Second, Flanker then initiates a defensive 'beaming' / 'beam-turn' / "doppler-turn" maneuver.
Cope India has shown the F-15 weapons package is vulnerable to "less-advanced" aircraft using proper tactics/training, (i.e. Mig-21 Bison, and Su-30MK, note - not MKI).
The Europeans tested the non-mid-course-update version of AIM-120, and its kill probability dropped below that of their existing Skyflash weapon.
Flanker will most certainly be equipped with a Threat Warning System that listens for Raptors AIM-120 mid-course update (data burst transmission) after F-22 weapon release. From here two (2) things could happen. First, the Threat Warning System triggers automatic release of expendables (chaff/flares). Second, Flanker then initiates a defensive 'beaming' / 'beam-turn' / "doppler-turn" maneuver.
Cope India has shown the F-15 weapons package is vulnerable to "less-advanced" aircraft using proper tactics/training, (i.e. Mig-21 Bison, and Su-30MK, note - not MKI).