We need to renovate our Millitary very Fast

ankitrsharma · Dec 15, 2009

Respected Sir/Madam,
This is the time of necessity to understand that our surrounding countries are no more friendly with us. We are having heavy enmity inside as well as outside. It is not easy to tackle with it. As there are great thinkers thinking for it. But we need good intelligence agencies. Sharp technocratic eye. High class and well secured systems. We need to develop weapons not keeping Pakistan but China and U.S. in mind. As they are the biggest threat to us. We need to develop systems which are more technically sharp and can be helpful. We need to configure our population and take the best out of them. We have tremendous capability but we need to utilize it. Nuclear war is going to be there but to make safe our people is very important. This is the important phase and we are the part of the great war. Countries like China and U.S. started early thinking about us but we need to think about them fast. We need to develop lot of strategies and they must be done fast with great pace.

Palnatoke · Dec 15, 2009

"Who" are "we"?

the road runner · Dec 15, 2009

Welcome to the forum ankitrsharma.
Maybee you could give some more infomation,as well as Options to consider?

I think India is "WE"?

If you were to try and counter China and US powers,India would be bank rupt.
Would it not be better to build relationships with countrys who you consider your enemy.?

It just seems to me that alot of people think that Defence and Force are silver bullets,that can solve any problem.They cannot solve everything

As for you comments that Nuclear will be there i do hope you are Very wrong on that one.

Regards

ankitrsharma · Dec 16, 2009

hello sir

First of all thank you very much for replying. Yes We means Indians. You are absolutely correct that fighting is not everything. You are also correct that defense and force are not the solutions. You are also very correct that we should be very friendly with these countries. But don't you think we have tried to very friendly since our freedom with our neighbors. As far as the history says we had the friendly relations with China as well as we are trying to have very good relations with U.S. What is the result of this. Is there any solution for it. Both of these are still helping Pakistan. What ever they say Pakistan follows. Pakistan is the puppet of these countries. About China first it took Tibeat now its eying Arunachal as well as Sikkim. About the U.S. its the dirty game player. It doesn't matter for U.S. whatever happens to India. It is just for the sake of its army being fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Being friendly is not bad but being too friendly with those who are going to stab you in future is bad.

Secondly my dear friend I am not saying U.S. and China enemies even though we know they are. I am just saying that we should prepare keeping the best in our mind. So that if in future anything happens we don't run to U.S. or Russia for help. As we did during Kargil. Again I am not saying anything controversial. Just keeping an example to prepare ourselves. As far as Nukes are concerned, than you know it quite well i would surrender to you what you say. But in my opinion we should find the better solution for it.

I am sorry if anyway i hearted anyones sentiments. As i didn't mean to do so.

IPA35 · Dec 16, 2009

India already has a large military with good systems.
What I would suggest is to upgrade the training and those things instead of quantitiy.
Stop with the carrier stuff, 3 will be more than enough.

IMO India should make their country liveable for all it's citizens before trying to be a superpower.

dragonfire · Dec 16, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
First of all thank you very much for replying. Yes We means Indians. You are absolutely correct that fighting is not everything. You are also correct that defense and force are not the solutions. You are also very correct that we should be very friendly with these countries. But don't you think we have tried to very friendly since our freedom with our neighbors. As far as the history says we had the friendly relations with China as well as we are trying to have very good relations with U.S. What is the result of this. Is there any solution for it. Both of these are still helping Pakistan. What ever they say Pakistan follows. Pakistan is the puppet of these countries. About China first it took Tibeat now its eying Arunachal as well as Sikkim. About the U.S. its the dirty game player. It doesn't matter for U.S. whatever happens to India. It is just for the sake of its army being fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Being friendly is not bad but being too friendly with those who are going to stab you in future is bad.

Secondly my dear friend I am not saying U.S. and China enemies even though we know they are. I am just saying that we should prepare keeping the best in our mind. So that if in future anything happens we don't run to U.S. or Russia for help. As we did during Kargil. Again I am not saying anything controversial. Just keeping an example to prepare ourselves. As far as Nukes are concerned, than you know it quite well i would surrender to you what you say. But in my opinion we should find the better solution for it.

I am sorry if anyway i hearted anyones sentiments. As i didn't mean to do so.

Bonza · Dec 16, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
Secondly my dear friend I am not saying U.S. and China enemies even though we know they are.

This sentence contradicts itself. Please clarify your position. After accusing Pakistan of being a puppet state and claiming the US is out to stab you in the back, your words are very much starting to resemble the sentiments of a nationalist.

Is this the case, or have I misread you?

Feanor · Dec 16, 2009

It's not an unreasonable position to take, albeit a rather paranoid one. What I'm wondering is what he actually wants to do? What concrete changes in the doctrine, and force structure do you envision to respond to these threats, akintrsharma?

Bonza · Dec 16, 2009

Feanor said:
It's not an unreasonable position to take, albeit a rather paranoid one. What I'm wondering is what he actually wants to do? What concrete changes in the doctrine, and force structure do you envision to respond to these threats, akintrsharma?

Granted, but it's not a great leap from paranoia to xenophobia. Take this reference to the US: "being friendly is not bad but being too friendly with those who are going to stab you in future is bad."

I can see the point he's trying to make I think, but then I'd say the sentiment is rather self-defeating - if you eliminate the possibility of strengthening diplomatic ties how can you expect a future relationship to improve at all? The assumption of future aggression means the relationship is approached from an adversarial position and thus impacts negatively on the building of trust.

After all if what you're seeking is deterrents, then strong international ties aren't a bad place to start...

And apologies if I've misread the situation. I'm not all that familiar with the politics of that part of the world.

sunshin3 · Dec 16, 2009

Bonza said:
Take this reference to the US: "being friendly is not bad but being too friendly with those who are going to stab you in future is bad."

As an external observer, I believe there are historical reasons. Furthermore, the Indians have been on the receiving end of US policy flip flops (which results in an on-off relationship that has had adverse consequences on Indian defence efforts). I'm sure the Indian forum members will have more to say on the effect of US policy flip flops.

Bonza said:
I can see the point he's trying to make I think, but then I'd say the sentiment is rather self-defeating - if you eliminate the possibility of strengthening diplomatic ties how can you expect a future relationship to improve at all?

I believe that many Indians have a historical reason for their lack of trust. US had supported Pakistan when it suited them and the US has engaged China when it suited them.

Now, it is India's turn under the current US administration's 'sunshine' policy. The question in some Indian minds is: How long will this last? Therefore some level of paranoia is to be expected.

Bonza said:
The assumption of future aggression means the relationship is approached from an adversarial position and thus impacts negatively on the building of trust.

India was at war with China in 1962 and India had fought three major wars, one minor war and numerous armed skirmishes with Pakistan. Therefore trust levels would not be very high.

Bonza said:
After all if what you're seeking is deterrents, then strong international ties aren't a bad place to start...

Ties with the international community did not deter China in 1962 (partially in response to Indian 'forward policy') and did not deter Pakistan in initiating the 1999 Kargil War

ankitrsharma · Dec 17, 2009

hello Bonaza

My dear friend again I am not speeking anything against U.S. or India relationship. Even we are trying to have good relations with China. It is realy good to have better relations. But my point is that we need to increase our fighting capabilities.

I think I have failed to explain my point here. My point is to increase and improve our fighting capabilities when we know we are surrounded with so many enemies. We need to improve on all grounds. As you can see China improving all its relations with all surrounding countries of India. First it was focusing with Pakistan, But now with the intervention of U.S. It has started shifting towards Nepal, Bangladesh, Srilanka.

Here my point is we need to start building our own tanks and planes, warships etc. We are developing them but the pace is very slow. It should be having more pace. Thats the only point.

the road runner · Dec 17, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
Here my point is we need to start building our own tanks and planes, warships etc. We are developing them but the pace is very slow. It should be having more pace. Thats the only point.

Its a Catch 22,it seems.I think India is headed in the right direction,its starting to work on Joint dvelopments with countrys such as Israel,Russia ect...

I use to think why Australia dose not build all its own Tanks,Planes,Ships ectThen i realised how much it costs to develope one Platform..

The problem is that it takes time to mature Platforms/systems.
Money to ensure start of the project/ problems are solved
And the know how to keep building and enhancing the design.

Its sad to say but no country builds all of its own defence systems/platforms.

As you may note that not even the USA builds all its own equipment,Eurocopter as an example...
Even Russia is purchasing UAV of Israel

Regards.

ankitrsharma · Dec 17, 2009

hi friend

Hence you can see that UAV is a technology which even Russia is purchasing from Iserale. So here what we are selling to the world. A small country like Israle can do than a country like India too can make something and sell to the world. You said India started corporatism with few countries. But here we are purchasing from them. We are not selling them anything. Here we have started aeronautical engineering courses, ship development courses. But there are hardly any industries where we can use our tremendous man power. We have one thing positive and that is Man power. We can utilize it anywhere. If we will not utilize it , it will become cause for various problems. Hence we need to generate opportunities as well as we need to grow ourselves. A country like Israle is having worlds best intelligence agency. Than a highly populated country like India cannot accept anything less than that. We are still not getting the things right as we are not ready to understand our weaknesses.

mikecole · Dec 17, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
First of all thank you very much for replying. Yes We means Indians. You are absolutely correct that fighting is not everything. You are also correct that defense and force are not the solutions. You are also very correct that we should be very friendly with these countries. But don't you think we have tried to very friendly since our freedom with our neighbors. As far as the history says we had the friendly relations with China as well as we are trying to have very good relations with U.S. What is the result of this. Is there any solution for it. Both of these are still helping Pakistan. What ever they say Pakistan follows. Pakistan is the puppet of these countries. About China first it took Tibeat now its eying Arunachal as well as Sikkim. About the U.S. its the dirty game player. It doesn't matter for U.S. whatever happens to India. It is just for the sake of its army being fighting in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Being friendly is not bad but being too friendly with those who are going to stab you in future is bad.

Secondly my dear friend I am not saying U.S. and China enemies even though we know they are. I am just saying that we should prepare keeping the best in our mind. So that if in future anything happens we don't run to U.S. or Russia for help. As we did during Kargil. Again I am not saying anything controversial. Just keeping an example to prepare ourselves. As far as Nukes are concerned, than you know it quite well i would surrender to you what you say. But in my opinion we should find the better solution for it.

I am sorry if anyway i hearted anyones sentiments. As i didn't mean to do so.

You said that pakistan is a puppet of these(China and USA) countries. This is rediculous. India is dying for nuclear deal with USA and you are also considering USA ememy. Secondly my dear friend I am not saying U.S. and China enemies even though we know they are. I don't believe you (India) have any friend in this whole world. Once you were friend of Russia. Now you are friend of Israel and some day i think you will be friend of china.

Mod edit. Please refrain from using huge red colored font when there is clearly no need for it.

dragonfire · Dec 17, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
My dear friend again I am not speeking anything against U.S. or India relationship. Even we are trying to have good relations with China. It is realy good to have better relations. But my point is that we need to increase our fighting capabilities.

I think I have failed to explain my point here. My point is to increase and improve our fighting capabilities when we know we are surrounded with so many enemies. We need to improve on all grounds. As you can see China improving all its relations with all surrounding countries of India. First it was focusing with Pakistan, But now with the intervention of U.S. It has started shifting towards Nepal, Bangladesh, Srilanka.

Here my point is we need to start building our own tanks and planes, warships etc. We are developing them but the pace is very slow. It should be having more pace. Thats the only point.

If i have understood your concerns correctly;

A. - India needs to have improved bilateral relations with neighbours and the rest of the world while not being blindingly trusting

B. - India needs to have improved Military capabilities with more domestic content

While we are not were should or want to be on both counts we are progressing

A.

India is doing a lot of lobbying and building up new ties in its immediate neighbourhood as well as the rest of the world. Most countries look positively towards having a great relationship with India due to economical and political reasons. In recent ties - It occupies almost uniquely a healthy engagement with both the 'Eastern' as well 'Western' blocks.

Recent achievements/efforts include. The signing of the civilian nuclear accord with US and other countries overcoming regulatory bodies created just to stop India from making such gains. Edorsements from almost all permanent members of the UN security council for a permanent seat (along with G4). Vastly improved relationship with USA in the last 12 years or so prior to which India was seen as Russian/USSR stooge of sorts. Entry into many world body orgs like G-8 as guest participants,active g-20 member, leading a block of developing nations in the climate change talks, BRIC, etc etc

B.

Indian Military is currently under modernisation plans with a budget of about 100 Billion USD

Major Plans/Upgrades

Indian Army

Acquisition of T-90 and Arjun tanks - In process
Acquiring Field Artilery including towed howitzers- order yet to be placed - very delayed
Plans to acquire light tanks and APCs for the eastern sector - order yet to be placed
HAl Dhruv- in process
Light Combat Helicopter - under development - late
Light Observation/Utility Helicopter - under development -late
The F-INSAS program - planned completion by 2020 - looks promising

Major Issues with Army Equipment

Lack of Mobility - not enough IFVs, APCs - IA was recently in the news for a report which stated that it had a mobility capacity only for 30% of its forces inside the country (the report was vehementl denies by IA), on all counts IA still needs more tracked and wheeled armoured infantry troop carriers, most transportation is done by trucks which have zero armour and can be easily starfed

Delayed Acquisitions- the artillery, the light utility helos, lack of combat helos (although it is a doctrine choice)

For CT ops the current INSAS is not the ideal weapon. The INSAS is designed to inflict injury unlike the AK series which is intended to make kills, the terrorists do not while enaging security forces try to evacuate injured comrades rather try to kill maximum soldiers, soldiers have been asking for a different weapon for such ops

IA soldiers who have been issued Body armour or Bullet proof jackets is a miniscule percentage of the operational force size

Indian Air Force

LCA / LCA Mk2/ LCA Naval Version - orders recieved/ under develoment/under development
Mig-29 Upgrades-in process
Mig-27 upgrades - completed
Jaguars upgrades - planned
Mirage 2000 upgrades - planned
Su-30 MKI/ MKI 2- delivery in process/ under development
Hawk trainers- delivery in process
Phalcon AWACS - delivery in process/ 2nd order to be placed for next 3 nos
AEW&CS - under development
Combat Helo- order yet to be placed; as well as LCH and LOH as detailed above
MMRCA 126 fighters- order yet to be placed - very delayed
HAL Dhruv- delivery in process
Mi-17- new helos ordered
Indo-Russian FGFA 5th gen fighters - under development
MCA 5th gen fighters- planned
HJT-36 trainer- in process
AJTrainer- order yet to be placed
HTT-40 trainer-planned
C-130 Herc- ordered
A2A refulers - order yet to be placed
Heavy lift helos-order yet to be placed
Heavy lift transports - C-17 is being considered - order yet to be placed
MTA transports - under development
An-32 Upgrades - in process

Major Issues
Delay, Delay, Delay - LCA, LCH, MMRCA, AJT - also a lot of new orders are yet to be issued
Dwindling Sqdn nos from a sanctioned 39.5 to a needed 60 it operates/will operate at about 31-33 sqdns.
10-15 years down the line Mig 27s, Jaguars, Mig29s, Mig-21 Bisons will all need to be replaced, if a plan is not implemented well in advance then it will be the Mig-21 vs MMRCA all over again
Pilots retiring prematurely -Commercial Airlinerers are luring away IAF pilots for lucrative salaries
Radar coverage - the IAF doesnt have complete radar coverage over the country

Indian Navy

Aircraft Carrier ADS 1 & INS Vikramaditya - under construction
ADS 2 (& 3) - planned
Project 15 A and 15 B destroyers - under construction and planned
Project 17 & Talwar and 17 A class frigates - under construction and planned
Project 28 and 28 a Corvettes - under construction and planned
LPD, LST Ambhibious ships, different classes being constructed and planned
INS Viraat - upgarde/overhaul completed
Mig-29K carrier based fighters - delivery in process

Nuclear Submarines (SSBN and SSN) - under construction, under development & lease acquisition
Scorpene Submarines - under construction
Project 75 (A/B) - additional submarines - order yet to be placed
Midget submarines - planned

- IN has also acquired a decent number of assets like the INS JalAshwa, the Delhi class destroyers, the Talwar class frigates, the type 16 frigates, the Shardul class ambhibious ships and some patrol ships

Major Issues

Although i personaly feel the IN does better than IA and IAF in terms of planning (because of recent acquisitions + under construction ships) it still lags badly in important areas esp subs
Lack of nuclear submarines
Lack of operational conventional submarines - sometimes the overhaul takes several years
Aircraft Carriers - plans are sufficient but delayed
Lack of enough no of operational carrier based fighters - the Harrier numbers have dwindiled
Coastal Defence - although this is under the Coast Guard , the ICG itself is under the IN so the responsibility for that is on IN and recent events and audits have revealed glaring gaps

Indigenious Efforts & Joint developments

Arjun Tank
LCA Tejas
Arihant Class nuclear submarines
ADS
HAL Dhruv
IGMDP missiles
INSAS weapon systems
Radars
Akash SAM
NAG Missile and NAMICA carriers
Sagarika and Shaurya missiles
Astra BVRAAM
BrahMos Missiles
Upgrades on BMP II s and other engineering vehicle developments
Abhay IFV and MPVs
HJT-16 and HJT-36 trainers
UAVs
MCA & FGFA, MTA, LCH, LOH, Medium Lift Helo, programmes
also the licensed production of Hawk trainers and Su-30 MKI fighters

Ankit i would advise you to engage in discussions which are specific in nature so that more people might be interested in dicussing with you.

ankitrsharma · Dec 17, 2009

Hi dragonfire

Thank you my dear friend. Again you are saying the same thing as I am. You are showing me what is in the pipeline. But this is what is in the pipeline, if tomorrow there is war what we have to compete with them. 1 nuclear submarine, 1 aging frigate few INS. Not well working Sukhois and mirajis. Thats what we have right now. We are not even having fully capable missile system or commissioned one. I am giving you our drawbacks. I am not telling anything about bilateral ties. Its rather great to have bilateral ties.

I am just putting forth one question that we need to develop our military strength good and fast. Saying that these are into pipeline and that they need to yet requiring approval. We need to make the things fast. You might have heard Scientists quoting that the pokhran-2 test was not so successful and now the army chief has also raised questions. Seeing the things it is absolutely we will have those things but today we need to look to them for everything.

Thats my point.

dragonfire · Dec 17, 2009

ankitrsharma said:
Thank you my dear friend. Again you are saying the same thing as I am. You are showing me what is in the pipeline. But this is what is in the pipeline, if tomorrow there is war what we have to compete with them. 1 nuclear submarine, 1 aging frigate few INS. Not well working Sukhois and mirajis. Thats what we have right now. We are not even having fully capable missile system or commissioned one. I am giving you our drawbacks. I am not telling anything about bilateral ties. Its rather great to have bilateral ties.

I am just putting forth one question that we need to develop our military strength good and fast. Saying that these are into pipeline and that they need to yet requiring approval. We need to make the things fast. You might have heard Scientists quoting that the pokhran-2 test was not so successful and now the army chief has also raised questions. Seeing the things it is absolutely we will have those things but today we need to look to them for everything.

Thats my point.

Ankit, dont worry too much, if a conventional war breaks out with our neighbours then we would not be too worse of as you might imagine. India has the worlds second largest standing Army the fourth largest air force and the fourth largest navy. Size does matter

. I donot forsee a possibility now of a war with the USA/UK so again it is a moot point discussing that. If you read my previous post then you would have noticed that i am clearly mentioning the major issues (according to me) with the IA, IAF and the IN.

Allow me to point to ceertain factual issues in your post.

We donot have even a single operational nuclear submarine - INS Arihant is under sea trials

You mentioned 1 aging frigate - i am assuming that you are referring to the INS Viraat - which is a aircraft carrier and not a frigate. yes it is aging but it is still operational and underwent overhaul a couple of months back. It has a lighter fighter sqdn now which is sad but it is still the only operational Aircraft carrier in the Indian Ocean/Arabian Sea/Bay of Bengal region (except for any USN carriers if they are deployed near pakistan for Afghan ops - which i doubt)

Sukhoi-30 MKI is the most potent deployed aircraft in the South Asian region. It is still a very able fighter and will dominate the skies for a long time to come. The first crash was due to a pilot error when the pilot switched off some critical switches accidentaly, the second crash's report i havent seen reported in the press, but all the fighters are back to flying status

Mirage 2000 is a very potent fighter, in fact it was the best fighter the French Air Force had prior to the rafale becoming operational. We also Have Mig-29s a good point defence fighter, the ground attack Jaguars and the Mig-27s

We do have missiles which are deployed the Agni I and II and the Prithvi amongst others and more are being deployed and developed.

I do understand your overall commentary of how we could have done more and need to do more and faster, however all am saying is we are quite capable to handle threats and are doing a lot more than we used to. Till 1992 we were under a lot of economic stress however its been only 17-18 years since the liberalisatioin. We shouldnt be satisfied but shouldnt be unhappy either

and might i suggest that you do read up on the current capabilities of the Indian Military

Feanor · Dec 17, 2009

Thread locked pending moderator discussion. So far this is a circle jerk with little if anything of value in it. There's a reason we have 4-5 other threads on the Indian military already going.

EDIT:

Thread re-opened. However this thread needs to move away from the political issues, and the anti-US/Pakistan/China rants, and unto some serious discussion of the Indian military and the direction of the reforms/changes that need/should take place. If you guys want to discuss Indian politics, we have an Off-Topic forum. Use it.

exported_kiwi · Jan 9, 2010

I would opine that India has more to fear from Pakistan, China and internal elements rather than the US, If anything, the US is/will be cultivating India as a "hedge" against Chinas rising hegemony in the region. here in China, may will say that India is openly preparing for a conflict of some sort against China and indeed, some articles have appeared in newspapers here regarding this. This is an example of Chinese paranoia and blatant nationalism. I certainly hope that no conflict occurs but if it does, I think India will acquit herself well and will be supported, logistically at least, by other nations.

Spetsznaz · Jan 10, 2010

ankitrsharma said:
Respected Sir/Madam,
This is the time of necessity to understand that our surrounding countries are no more friendly with us. We are having heavy enmity inside as well as outside. It is not easy to tackle with it. As there are great thinkers thinking for it. But we need good intelligence agencies. Sharp technocratic eye. High class and well secured systems. We need to develop weapons not keeping Pakistan but China and U.S. in mind. As they are the biggest threat to us. We need to develop systems which are more technically sharp and can be helpful. We need to configure our population and take the best out of them. We have tremendous capability but we need to utilize it. Nuclear war is going to be there but to make safe our people is very important. This is the important phase and we are the part of the great war. Countries like China and U.S. started early thinking about us but we need to think about them fast. We need to develop lot of strategies and they must be done fast with great pace.

Oh poor buddy, I don't even know were to start in India.

Here is some stuff

Since you guys decided to "go east"(Russian Style weaponry) I suggest you stay that way, when you try to fuse western and eastern technology you get mock-ups and problems.

I think you Number one threat is probably China, because the US is in noooooooooo condition to start a war with its economy any time soon.

I think you also underestimate your self:hitwall
India has weapons that so many other countries don't=Nuclear weapons, Nuclear submarines and I think aircraft carrier (MIGHT BE WRONG)

Another thing you must keep in mind is that Economical threat is just as serious as a military threat.

However if you ever do decide to go to war with China, than Russia will not come to your aid that's 100% because to Russia India and China are like good freinds.

I GUARANTEE YOU THAT THE US IS NOT A THREAT TO YOU WHAT SO EVER. THE US KNOWS THAT WAR WITH YOU MEANS A START TO WW3 WITH RUSSIA PROBABLY COMING TO YOUR AID.

I do agree with you, India is on a good start with there weapons developments

We need to renovate our Millitary very Fast

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