Nuclear Subs for India

[dragonfire]

Indian Navy has projected a need for 10-12 nuclear powered subs in the next 10 years. India has an announced "no first strike" policy in terms of a nuclear conflict. The most widely accepted second strike platforms are the nuclear tipped missiles launched from a submerged or otherwise deployed nuclear powered submarine. India clearly lacks in this respect having not even a single nuc-sub currently deployed. In this light I would like to invite discussions on the needs for nuclear subs for india, discussions can revolve around numbers, classes for acquisition, missiles for delivering effective retaliatory strikes, sub required vs. not required debates, reactor details and discussions etc

Would request Mod checks in order to prevent uncessary posting which could result in thread shut down, preferably posts which dont adhere can be removed than the shut down of healthy discussions

 

[Feanor]

Where has India stated the need for 10-12 subs? Please post an MoD/DoD source.

 

[Bang-Bang]

As this thread is to discuss the IN subs , Here i got something

How viable is a surgery which requires a healthy patient to be in a hospital bed for one-third of his life? That is the approximate analogy for the mid-life upgrade for this submarine INS Sindhukirti, the Dry Dock Queen. Four submarines are stuck in such protracted upgrades. Not surprisingly, just nobody is accountable .

During An interview to News Channel CNN IBN7 Admiral Suresh Mehta Said That 48% Subs of IN are in dry dock to repair .

New Delhi: Over-emphasis on indigenous work is hurting India's readiness for war.

As India's vital submarine arm struggles with dangerously low numbers, a top-end submarine has been taken out of the fleet for a repair programme.

The shocking revelations of the report were:

Only seven of India's 16 submarines are available for combat at any time.

10 of these 16 ageing submarines will be due for phase-out by 2012.

To maintain current numbers, one submarine needs to be inducted every two years but there's been no addition since 2001.

India's only submarine-making facility in Mumbai was kept idle for 12 years.


http://ibnlive.in.com/news/are-we-b...ir-costs-india-maritime-security/82616-3.html .

 

[dragonfire]

Where has India stated the need for 10-12 subs? Please post an MoD/DoD source.

Couldnt find an exact MoD/DoD source - but the point has been stated in several articles, 3 of which i have posted below


http://www.idrw.org/2008/12/16/russia_likely_to_lease_shchukab_class_nuke_subs_to_india.html

http://defense-technologynews.blogspot.com/2008/12/russia-offers-to-lease-india-several.html

There is one more link from *************.com - but its not showing correctly - wonder why ? in case u need to refer its the site and then /reports-4110



Also would advise you to visit the link bang bang mentioned above, it shows a glaring inavailability of subs (only 7 are available, one sub will take 10 yrs to refit etc) in the IN

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/are-we-ba...y/82616-3.html .

 

[Bang-Bang]

Well so its seems that IN is really desprate to have some good nuc powerd subs , I also posted a thread earlier : Russia to Lease Shchuka-B Class Submarines to India .

The Russian offer comes as Indian Navy has formulated a 20 year plan to produce indigenously 24 conventional submarines. New Delhi had also contracted for two nuclear submarines from Moscow, but navy has projected that in the next 10 years India would need to acquire or build another 10-12 nuclear subs. These nuclear submarines would be similar to the 'Nerpa'class, which was involved in an accident in November during final sea trials in Sea of Japan.

As one of Russian official said " Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class " .

Several intresting :unknown


i also want to know that how many years a sub take to ready for service .

 

[dragonfire]

Well so its seems that IN is really desprate to have some good nuc powerd subs , I also posted a thread earlier : Russia to Lease Shchuka-B Class Submarines to India .

The Russian offer comes as Indian Navy has formulated a 20 year plan to produce indigenously 24 conventional submarines. New Delhi had also contracted for two nuclear submarines from Moscow, but navy has projected that in the next 10 years India would need to acquire or build another 10-12 nuclear subs. These nuclear submarines would be similar to the 'Nerpa'class, which was involved in an accident in November during final sea trials in Sea of Japan.

As one of Russian official said " Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class " .

Several intresting :unknown


i also want to know that how many years a sub take to ready for service .

Well i think the leasing is for 3 subs - NATO designate AKULA-II class attack subs with an option of buying them at the end of the 10 year lease period. ATV program is for anywhere between 3-5 subs. So that takes care of about 6-8 nuc-subs.

This is what I think Indian nuc-sub inventory should look like in 10-15 years

Nuclear Subs -

SSBN - 6

SSN - 9

SSGN - 3 (we will need long range cruise missiles for tht)

Tactical Subs

India should have submersibles (2man-16man) may be 12-18 for spec ops - its reported they already have Cosmos CE-2F/X100 for the MARCOS teams

Conventional Powered

The existing subs are going to go including the Sindhugosh class, the newer ones will serve for some more time (only about 4-5), the foxtrot and Shishumar class will be retired

There is an order for 6 scorpenes and an evaluation process in on for ordering 6 more (HDW will probably win this one) under project 75 - That makes 12

So that constitutes about 16-17 subs and as such the plan is for 24 subs which means another 7-8 should be ordered or built (wonder why there is no domestic conventional sub building program - design to delivery - indegenious, one would assume sub building of conventional nature would help in assimilating knowledge for building nuc-subs)

To answer your last question - India has been planning and not yet delivered the ATV - it started 20 yrs ago, however first time players (china and India do take more time owing to the complexity of the deal)

 

[dragonfire]

yesterday i saw a video on you tube which was featuring spec ops forces of india - namely the MARCOS and sone desert commando / spec force. It featured the Cosmos CE-2F/X100 (it looks so non lethal in bright green color) and it wasnt looking like an ideal platform for spec ops either - it can only carry 2 ppl and it is not an enclosed sub which means shorter range beacuse of the oxygen capacity for the team (tanks). what would be an ideal platform for a spec ops forces wrt to submersibiles and midget subs - read somewhere that the SEALs has a 16+2 man capable vehicle called ASDS (Advanced Seal Delivery System) which sounds like a paltform capable of inserting a small strike team

Maybe India should develop or procure something like that instead of 2 man submersibiles

come to think of it Cocaine smugglers use bigger submersible - he he - pls dont trash me

 

[dragonfire]

brazillian scorpene to have nuclear propulsion

Brazil has inked a deal with DCN for building scorpenes and one of which will be a nuc-powered sub, for which the "non-nuclear" part of the sub will be built by france, perhaps india should look at this program as a model, it already has miniature reactor program for its ATV project and it is already building scorpenes. Bingo - new domestic nuc-sub program to accelerate speedier acquisition of nuc-subs - although at about 60-70 mts length it sounds like a small platform for a modern nuke sub

 

[kev 99]

This is what I think Indian nuc-sub inventory should look like in 10-15 years

Nuclear Subs -

SSBN - 6

SSN - 9

SSGN - 3 (we will need long range cruise missiles for tht)

Even if you include the 3 Russian subs in that list you are still looking at building 15 Nuclear subs in 15 years when India has not even built one previously, there's no way that is achievable.

 

[harryriedl]

Even if you include the 3 Russian subs in that list you are still looking at building 15 Nuclear subs in 15 years when India has not even built one previously, there's no way that is achievable.

when it takes most nations to build one in 5 years
for example Los Angeles (SSN-688) was ordered in 1971 and was commissioned in 1976
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Los_Angeles_(SSN-688)

USS Virgina was ordered in 1999 and commissioned in 2004
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Virginia_(SSN-774)
a UK an example HMS Trafalgar was ordered in 1977 and wasn't commissioned till 1983

the French took a similarly long time to build an SSN
as Rubis (their 1st vessel) was ordered 1977 wasn't commissioned till 1993
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubis_(S_601)
Akula class Vepr was also built in 5 year.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_submarine_K-157_Vepr

You couldn't build 15 nuke subs in 15 years especialy if you haven't even built your own SSK its not doable not even the cold war superpowers(of a single class in a single yard) could achieve that a SSN a year.

 

[Feanor]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.

 

[harryriedl]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.

curious would the Russian sell 6 SSN or SSGN I can't imagine them wanting to sell so many unless it was 6 of death traps which have been decommissioned for decades

 

[kev 99]

They could buy more Russian ones. But it would be expensive. Not to mention hardly helpful in terms of developing indigenous production.

But then that would require the Russians to build them, do they even have the capacity to do that in the timescale involved? even if they sold old ones to India they would have to build replacements one a 1 for 1 basis or face an overall reduction in numbers.

 

[Feanor]

But then that would require the Russians to build them, do they even have the capacity to do that in the timescale involved? even if they sold old ones to India they would have to build replacements one a 1 for 1 basis or face an overall reduction in numbers.

6 submarines over 10 years? I would think it's possible. Not cheap, but definetly possible.

 

[dragonfire]

Guys, India already has an ATV project which is supposed to deliver btw 5-6 nuc-subs, 2 akula-II's will be leased and then probably acquired (after lease terms of 10 yrs). So that gives us plans in place already for 7-9 subs within the time frame as such right.

So then what is pending is about 7-8 subs. now in my earlier post i wrote how an indian scorpene can be designed to accomadate a nuc-reactor, given tht this would be small sub it still is a nuc sub, at a lower end of one such sub tht leaves a gap of 6-7 subs

Now for this 6-7 subs one could approach, russia, french or the US

am sure 6-7 subs in 12-14 yrs is doable

 

[kev 99]

6 submarines over 10 years? I would think it's possible. Not cheap, but definetly possible.

Depends how many yards Russia has left able to build Nuclear subs really.

Dragonfire - Indian ATV project delivering 5 - 6 subs in 15 years? I would be amazed if it could deliver that after not building a single nuclear sub before, if you don't believe me look into the problems involved in the Astute class caused by the UK not ordering any nuclear subs for years

Your numbers seem to have come down from 18 boats to up to 15 (5 - 6 ATV, 2 Russian leased and 6 to 7 from elsewhere).

 

[dragonfire]

Depends how many yards Russia has left able to build Nuclear subs really.

Dragonfire - Indian ATV project delivering 5 - 6 subs in 15 years? I would be amazed if it could deliver that after not building a single nuclear sub before, if you don't believe me look into the problems involved in the Astute class caused by the UK not ordering any nuclear subs for years

Your numbers seem to have come down from 18 boats to up to 15 (5 - 6 ATV, 2 Russian leased and 6 to 7 from elsewhere).

Good Point - wrong math by me - head bang, head bang lol

ATV - 5-6
Akula - 2
Total - 7-8

Proposed
Scorpenes nuc-subs ala brazil - 1 / 2

Other subs - 6-8

Total - 14 to 18 subs

Besides which there could be a possibility tht India can develop a newer class from the ATV project and the SSGNs could be acquired

To partly solve some probs in russian manufacture - how about India acquiring some ownership rights in those companies - Indian companies like HAL etc through a SPV could buy into the new aircraft manufacturing corp as well as some shipyards - it could prevent the probs with groshkov from rcurring and also give rusian additional funds, besides which indians can do a better job at marketing stuff to non-traditional customers of russian armaments

 

[harryriedl]

at this rate their be lucky to get any
Russia Indefinitely Puts Off Delivery of Nuke Subs to India

In what could be a major setback for India's defence preparedness, Russia has 'indefinitely' postponed the delivery of "Akula-II' class Nerpa nuclear submarine, citing that sea trials were still incomplete.

"The pre-delivery trials have been postponed by the Amur Shipyard as it has no trial crew and is running short of cash," Far Eastern edition of Kommersant daily reported today.

The Amur Shipyard is yet to constitute a new trial team for these class of nuclear submarines after 8th November accident in which 20 members of the trial team were killed during the subs sea trials in Sea of Japan, the paper said.

It said the new team will not be ready before March and would have to undergo up to one year long refresher course before it could be authorized to resume pre-delivery trails.

Under the larger Gorshkov package with Russia, the Indian Navy was to get first of the two Shchuka-B project nuclear submarines on lease last year. But later the Russians revised the delivery schedule to August 2009.

The submarines are being acquired to train the Indian crews for the indigenous submarines being developed under Advanced Technology Vessel (ATV) project.

"Some members of the trial team, which was on the submarine during last year's accident have died, some are medically unfit, while some others have refused to go to the sea due to psychological reasons," Gennady Bagin, Director of 'Vostok'- a unit of the Amur shipyard, was quoted as saying by the daily.

The accident-hit nuclear submarine is berthed at the cash-strapped 'Vostok' plant and some work is still underway on it despite the cut in the power quota due to non-payment of power bills.

India and Russia have still to renegotiate the deal for the refitting of the aircraft carrier Gorskov with Moscow demanding double the negotiated price of USD 2.5 billion.

The delivery of the warship is already delayed till 2012 and now it appears that Russians may not be able to meet new deadline for the supply of nuclear submarines too.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...-to-india.html

interesting to see if this is another issue with Russia over defense

 

[SkolZkiy]

Strange, after the incident on Nerpa RuOfficials said that this sub would be included into RuNAVY and won't be leased to India.
About Gorshkov - India has already agreed to pay more.

 

[kev 99]

Strange, after the incident on Nerpa RuOfficials said that this sub would be included into RuNAVY and won't be leased to India.
About Gorshkov - India has already agreed to pay more.

Everything I see in the press about Russian arms sales or about Russian military seems to get contradicted almost immediately, Nerpa going to India then not, then never was going to India, Russian naval bases being built in friendly nations like Lybia, then this is denied then reported again.