The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Rn

yes i agree it has been depleted along with our armed forces. its all down to our government. they are lying, theiving, murdering scum that have overstreched the british forces and taken away all there funding. the "patriotism" i show is just making the most of what is left of our armed forces. i wish some one would do something about it.

we are supposed to get two new aircraft carriers but i guess they will be cancelled by our rubbish government to keep the RN going we also need another billion pounds of funds. but it wont happen.

as the current sea lord said, "give me two carriers and a £1 billion pounds and that will please me me, a happy boy"

i wish the government would give the navy that.

Jambo_100 said:

the "patriotism" i show is just making the most of what is left of our armed forces.

Click to expand...

patriotism runs through all of our veins in some form or fashion...

i think that finally the carriers will not be built, maybe they will be downsized build only 1 or totally cancelled because so many delays to approve the next step is suspicious.

Rn

yes it does, us brits had so much to be proud of. we treasured our armed forces as they were one of the best in the world and they still are best trained in the world. but now with the decline of the british military we dont have so much to be proud of. it is a real shame to see our military go to the dogs.

Cvf

overlander said:

i think that finally the carriers will not be built, maybe they will be downsized build only 1 or totally cancelled because so many delays to approve the next step is suspicious.

Click to expand...

we just have to hope for the best......and a better prime minister.

overlander said:

i think that finally the carriers will not be built, maybe they will be downsized build only 1 or totally cancelled because so many delays to approve the next step is suspicious.

Click to expand...

It will be two or none - one would be disproportionately more than half of an order for the pair.

There's nothing suspicious in the delay. It's because BAE and VT didn't finish their negotiations early enough - the government can't make any announcements now because it's too close to the elections and Parliament's on break.

Jambo_100 said:

those other ships you spoke of probably are "pretty advanced" but the T45 destroyers are THE most advanced warships in the world.

these ships will remain the best in the world until the americans build the DDX class destroyer. (if the project officially goes ahead)

Click to expand...

Really. What about Dutch LCF?

Big-E said:

It won't be long until India leaves you in her dust.

Is the Daring the most advanced warship in the world?

Flight II/A DDG-80+ are pretty advanced.

Click to expand...

Sorry Big-E, but it's the truth, the Daring's are the most advanced... ...at the moment.

India's current DDG's are already in service. Although armed to the teeth, they pretty much comprise of 70's & 80 technology.

If they're planning a 2nd version with more up to date equipment, then yes, it's possible that they MIGHT be more advanced, but with India having a lot of things to use her defence budget on, I'd think there would be a few comprimises, because as we all know Modern, up to date spec Military systems are VERY EXPENSIVE !

Even the Chinese Type-54 DDG's while looking very impressive, they will, to some respect, be slightly inferior, again because they are already using them, never mind the East/West technology gap, although in fairness we aren't exactly comparing "like for like".

Also, if we compare the Darings with her "sisters" from the European consortium, there will be some differences, especially in the integration & operability of her combat system.

However, if previous UK history on development of systems is anything to go by on British Naval vessels, then the systems will be over engineered, to meet the EXACT expectations of the RN, making them achieve more.

Any thoughts....?

T45

why is it that hardly any of you people understand! they are the best in the world! if you dont beleive me look it up on the internet! i bet the DDGs cant track every plane in every major airport in europe. or shoot down a cricket ball at three times the speed of sound. the T45 are currently the best, nothing can beat them when it comes to technology. maybe in a couple of years something else will be better but for now the T45 is the best. im sorry but this is annoying me, its like people cant accept that the daring class are better. :

Jambo_100 said:

im sorry its not the dutch that are more powerful than ours, its belgium.

Click to expand...

That would be even worse.

But yeah he was exaggerating quite alot.

Jambo_100 said:

why is it that hardly any of you people understand! they are the best in the world! if you dont beleive me look it up on the internet! i bet the DDGs cant track every plane in every major airport in europe. or shoot down a cricket ball at three times the speed of sound. the T45 are currently the best, nothing can beat them when it comes to technology. maybe in a couple of years something else will be better but for now the T45 is the best. im sorry but this is annoying me, its like people cant accept that the daring class are better. :

Click to expand...

It doesn't really matter what other people believe Jambo. When it comes to comparing one country's weapons with another, nationalistic spirit blinds all of us a bit. I also wouldn't put too much faith on what is in the public domain on the internet. It is a good starting point but the information is only as good as what has been provided by the military. There is always much that is classified. In the finish the main thing is that the Type 45s will do what the RN wants them to be able to do and I am very confident that they will. They have the latest technology and an excellent weapons, radar and fire control system which is certainly at the forefront of what is currently available. The Darings will be excellent ships that will enhance not only the air defence of the fleet but the country as a whole.

Cheers

Musashi_kenshin said:

I doubt that very much.

Click to expand...

While MoD continues to say they will build CVF we have to come to the reality of economies of scale in all ship building projects MoD has planned. The Trident replacements are a committed priority now and will eat up most of the procurement budget for some time to come. The Darings are not going to meet economies of scale benefits due to the lower procurement rates. The procurement budgets will not even be close to funding CVF unless supplementals are added. The rising cost of shipbuilding is not only endemic to the US, rather it is felt even harder in the UK as their industries do not have proper orders to maintain skilled labor.

India on the other hand has boat loads of labor at dirt cheap prices. There ability to produce quality steel will have them up to a 3 carrier force within a short period of time. They will no doubt be less advanced as a CVF would be but I'm of the opinion it will never be built. If any carrier is produced it will be vastly scaled down to meet budget constraints. I would hedge my bets on the RN acquiring F-35Bs instead of the Cs as the carrier they end up with will be along the lines of the traditional ski jump design. The few Darings that will be built will only be enough to escort one carrier on station. The IN will easily be able to provide 2 carrier groups. Their silent service has every intention of going nuclear and the Brahmos gives them a system that will put fear into any enemy. The IN is the rising superstar of the waves.

Jambo_100 said:

those other ships you spoke of probably are "pretty advanced" but the T45 destroyers are THE most advanced warships in the world. shame the're not in service yet. HMS daring will enter service in 2009 along with one of the new "astute class" submarines called HMS astute.

Click to expand...

Considering the Darings are as yet not operational could my original contention that the latest Burkes are the most advanced?

Systems Adict said:

Sorry Big-E, but it's the truth, the Daring's are the most advanced... ...at the moment.

Click to expand...

Not yet operational... latest ABs are the most advanced, for now.

Systems Adict said:

India's current DDG's are already in service. Although armed to the teeth, they pretty much comprise of 70's & 80 technology.

Click to expand...

I wasn't even going to compare their DDGs. :unknown UK just doesn't have the numbers to maintain parity.

Systems Adict said:

If they're planning a 2nd version with more up to date equipment, then yes, it's possible that they MIGHT be more advanced, but with India having a lot of things to use her defence budget on, I'd think there would be a few comprimises, because as we all know Modern, up to date spec Military systems are VERY EXPENSIVE !

Click to expand...

India will undoubtedly be behind the RN technologically for quite some time but they will have the numbers to provide full CSG force projection. The way the RN is going they will be relegated to nothing more than a SAG capability. :shudder

Systems Adict said:

Even the Chinese Type-54 DDG's while looking very impressive, they will, to some respect, be slightly inferior, again because they are already using them, never mind the East/West technology gap, although in fairness we aren't exactly comparing "like for like".

Click to expand...

The way I speculate the future PLAN destroyer S2A capability will simply be S-300s integegrated into the fire control. I don't expect any real inovation in the design.

Systems Adict said:

However, if previous UK history on development of systems is anything to go by on British Naval vessels, then the systems will be over engineered, to meet the EXACT expectations of the RN, making them achieve more.

Any thoughts....?

Click to expand...

Unless they can over engineer the Darings with a 300m flight deck I don't think it will meet the RNs force requirements.

Big-E said:

... If any carrier is produced it will be vastly scaled down to meet budget constraints. I would hedge my bets on the RN acquiring F-35Bs instead of the Cs as the carrier they end up with will be along the lines of the traditional ski jump design. ....

Click to expand...

You've not followed the CVF story at all, have you?

1) the design has grown.

2) any shrinking would now incur considerable costs, offsetting a large share of construction cost savings, because of the amount already spent on design.

3) the RN has never planned to buy F-35C. It has always planned the new carriers to operate STOVL aircraft. I know, seems odd for such big ships, but that was the plan when they were intended to be smaller & in service earlier, & it hasn't changed. To cater for the ships outlasting the F-35B & the possibility that no STOVL replacement may be available, they will be built to allow for re-fitting with catapults.

BTW, there will be a joint F-35B force, along the lines of the current joint Harrier force, with aircraft shared between the RAF (which will also operate F-35B) & FAA. This has been the plan since before there was an F-35B, when it was uncertain what aircraft would be available to be bought.

beedall.com reports there is still the possibility of catapults. With expanded mission demand it becomes more likely it will be the final solution. Not that it matters seeing how they don't have the money if they want any escorts to go with it.

Big-E said:

beedall.com reports there is still the possibility of catapults. With expanded mission demand it becomes more likely it will be the final solution. Not that it matters seeing how they don't have the money if they want any escorts to go with it.

Click to expand...

I have great respect for Richard Beedall, but on this matter he is merely quoting the official line. We haven't ordered F-35 yet. It's still possible, though unilkely, that we might not. In which case we have to go to Plan B as stated by Lord Drayson on 18 Sep 2006, quoted by Ridhard Beedall

"In time, the carriers will be joined by the new JSF aircraft – providing, as I expect, we resolve the technology transfer issues with the United States by the end of this year. And of course we have maintained our Plan B options if we run into any issues on JSF. I’m optimistic that we wont – but planning on the basis that we might.

Issues like this have required an unprecedented degree of future-proofing in the design. This has involved extensive modelling, computer analysis and tank tests. The result is an adaptable design, with a ramp to operate STOVL aircraft, which could be altered to take catapults and arrestor gear to launch conventional carrier aircraft if needed. "

BTW, all he was doing was restating what had been said before. But Plan A is, & always has been, STOVL - i.e. F-35B. And it's exactly as I said, & contrary to what you clearly, from what you said, believed. Plan C (the least likely, IMO) is completion as hybrids, with both ski-jump & catapults.

As for the money - well, Gordie doesn't look like the bloke to win the next election. It's Camerons to lose, I reckon.

Like you said the use of VTOL aircraft on a carrier whose demands are growing is an idiomatic symptom of lunacy. They have reduced payload, range and handling characteristics, no advantage at all. The F-35B would fit nicely on a stealthy pocket carrier but on CVF... stupid.

Interesting to see that the new Burkes are coming without Harpoons and, more important in my eyes, without CIWS.
They follow the trend of "prepared for but not fitted with".
Many european navys launched AA ships in the last years all of them very capable and powerfull and they seem to not follow this trend.

The US navy can go with such a trend as they rarely operate without carrier backup but thats not the case for the rest of the world.

Big-E said:

Like you said the use of VTOL aircraft on a carrier whose demands are growing is an idiomatic symptom of lunacy. They have reduced payload, range and handling characteristics, no advantage at all. The F-35B would fit nicely on a stealthy pocket carrier but on CVF... stupid.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Rafale, a navalised Typhoon, or F-35C would be preferable. Even F-18E

If the RAF wants to keep its STOVL fleet & the RN wants to keep the operational flexibility of STOVL (it was useful in the Falklands), then buy some F-35B, but the main force should be CTOL.