Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I get where you're coming from Volk, but to be honest:
1) The Evolved Mogami is much more capable that the old Tier 3 proposals, and sits much more comfortably in Tier 2; and
2) I'm not convinced that a Tier 3 combatant is necessary. I don't think we can get something that has the range and firepower needed to be a proper combatant in our context in a sub 4000t package.

I think instead there is a much better case for leaving the Arafuras / Capes to the constabulary / patrol role (and potentially transferring them in their entirety to the ABF), and leaving the RAN to what it should be - the nation's battle fleet. And we should be focussed on right sizing the number of proper combatants that we're building.

For me the logic of the force structure is pretty simple - what is the operational effect you want?

My very much armchair view is if Australia is serious about simultaneously securing its SLOCs, protecting amphibious forces, and projecting power into the South Pacific, eastern Indian Ocean and northern archipelago, then the RAN needs to be able to put to sea, at any given time, the equivalent three credible surface action groups, comprised of a DDG, FFG and 2x GP frigates (plus SSNs obviously acting largely independently, besides maybe escorting a large amphib group).

If you accept that requirement the rule of three drives the rest. If you want 3 SAGs, you get to roughly 9 DDGs, 9 Hunters, 18 Mogamis and 9 SSNs.

That is why I think the official plan is still too thin. The current trajectory gives us 6 Hunters, 11 Mogamis, and a future replacement for the 3 Hobarts, within a force centred on 8 SSNs. That is a meaningful improvement, but it is still a fleet sized more for selective presence and denial than for sustained control of our approaches and persistent escort depth.

The real problem with the current numbers is not that they are “small” in a peacetime sense. It is that they are brittle in wartime. If you start with only 9 Tier 1 escorts in total, for example, the available force shrinks very quickly once you account for maintenance cycles, training pipelines, refits and battle damage. A force structure like the above gives you enough mass to absorb those normal losses of availability without collapsing the whole operational concept. Not because it sounds neat, and not because bigger is always better, but because it is the point where the RAN starts to look like a navy that can sustainably generate combat power in multiple theatres rather than just assemble a respectable looking order of battle for a one off engagement in one place at one time.

The other reason I like this structure is that it maps well to a continuous build. It's not fantasy fleet stuff. It's upping the tempo and committing to orders on existing programs for the long term. It would take us 30 years to get to this mass, but once we're there we would have a tremendous national asset, and for not much more (single digit billions p.a.) than the current plan.

If the future DDG is a Hunter derivative rather than a completely separate design, that gets even better. The yard is no longer switching between unrelated classes, it's building variants of the same family. Same broad production philosophy, same workforce, similar supplier base, similar combat-system spine. The Yanks have done something similar well with the Burke model of flighted evolution over decades.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but our current plan, where we might be able to muster a DDG, 2 FFGs and 4 GPs if we're lucky, simply isn't sufficient.
The thing is, the OCV/Corvette was over 30 years ago, the rehash under Rudd over 15 years ago.

The Corvette as envisioned by Dib in 1987, was a platform, that could do everything an ANZAC could do, but limited to local waters and or near region, i.e.
northern choke points.

While it would have been for but not with, it would still have had a Mk-41 for NATO Sea Sparrow, a 3" or 57mm gun, provision for Harpoon, and a hangar a helo deck for a Sea Sprite or Lynx (Panther was dropped due to French Nuclear testing).

They likely would have followed the ANZACs out of Williamstown, and in turn been followed by the Tier 1 replacements, quote likely F-100s, but possibly something evolved from MEKO.

The last of the ANZAC replacements would be on the slips now, probably FREMMs or further evolved MEKOs, and the corvette replacement in down select now.

Dibbs plan and the following White paper was the minimum. The tier 3 corvette replacement would be something like the Mogami.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
What’s the deal with the OPV program?, Eyre was supposed to be commissioned in Q1 2026.
Hopefully Pilbara is still on track for mid year delivery and Q4 commissioning? Gippsland launch also in 2026?



Other news = 2 more Evolved Capes ordered which would bring the total to 26 built for RAN/ABF by 2027/28.

 
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Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What’s the deal with the OPV program?, Eyre was supposed to be commissioned in Q1 2026.
Hopefully Pilbara is still on track for mid year delivery and Q4 commissioning? Gippsland launch also in 2026?



Other news = 2 more Evolved Capes ordered which would bring the total to 26 built for RAN/ABF by 2027/28.

It will actually only be for 16 Evolved Capes for both ABF/RAN so far ordered. The first 10 delivered to ABF/RAN were of the initial Cape class supplied approx a decade ago. Cheers.
 

Reptilia

Well-Known Member
Is this a Arafura depicted in. LM vid for container launched drones?
vid has been around for sometime.
Few others floating around like Rafael c dome, stern/starboard launched uuv, modified Arafura for sea 1905 Etc etc.
civmec also shows a few potential upgrades -57mm, Captas 1, fixed quad nsm launcher, containerised loitering munitions like innovaeros owl.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
So it looks like Phalanx is on the way out?
Not clear.

These are specifically for the Mogami frigates. I would imagine Phalanx will be around for a while yet. It really depends on the platform and the threats.

But I do wonder if seaRAM will find fitment in other ships, perhaps the Hobarts, or the LHD.
I wonder what the close in guns will be.
It has two remote weapon stations, I believe they are fitted with .50 cal. Its one of the few areas, maybe have a look at a 20 or 30mm gun mount sometime in the future with the local builds.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I wonder what the close in guns will be. 25mm,30mm,40mm, Bofors?
My preference is 40mm for the benefits it has over smaller calibres in range ,weight of shot and true diversity of response to a broad range of threats.
Down side is cost of system and ammunition.

Hence I believe the 30 mm will be the path forward.

Still not a bad outcome and trust Navy can standardise whatever is selected across the entire fleet.

Goodbye 25mm


Cheers S
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not clear.

These are specifically for the Mogami frigates. I would imagine Phalanx will be around for a while yet. It really depends on the platform and the threats.

But I do wonder if seaRAM will find fitment in other ships, perhaps the Hobarts, or the LHD.

It has two remote weapon stations, I believe they are fitted with .50 cal. Its one of the few areas, maybe have a look at a 20 or 30mm gun mount sometime in the future with the local builds.
That report says SeaRAM has been selected for the HCF as well…
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
That report says SeaRAM has been selected for the HCF as well…
Good pickup

Not unreasonable to suggest SeaRam for the Hobart Class as well down the track.
Or preferably while they undertake their major refit.

As for the big amphibs and Supply class. let’s see.
Some are already fitted with phalanx so an upgrade to SeaRam is a possible path forward.

Hopefully S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
That report says SeaRAM has been selected for the HCF as well…
Some how my eyes missed, that I had to re-read it..
Australia has also selected the SeaRAM for its Hunter-class frigates based on the BAE Type 26 design.
Which makes sense, I'm not sure if we need more phalanx. Hunter is a pretty high end combatant. I am also curious if hunter is keeping the two Phalanx mounts or is doing what the Canadians are doing going to a single mounted higher.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Some how my eyes missed, that I had to re-read it..


Which makes sense, I'm not sure if we need more phalanx. Hunter is a pretty high end combatant. I am also curious if hunter is keeping the two Phalanx mounts or is doing what the Canadians are doing going to a single mounted higher.
Further to that, its 2 x21 cell SeaRAM as well, not the 11.
 
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