Is the Super Hornet the best fighter for the Canadian Forces

Tsavo Lion said:

Relations with Russia have now a lot better chance of improving after Trump assumes his presidency. Australia is in a tougher neighborhood than Canada- like late R. Reigan said: "nations don't trust each other because they're armed; they arm themselves because they don't trust each other!" That said, at least I was right about suggesting the F-16- it has 1 engine, not 2, and still in production! New variants of J-39 could also be considered. In fact, Swedish & Canadian climates r similar, with long coastlines to defend! Lastly, if anyone complains about Canada's falling behind her NORAD/NATO obligations, they should thank USA for helping to terminate the Arrow program that killed all future domestic-built interceptors!

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But you aren't arming for short term threats. Any fighter you choose now will still be serving in 2050.

Any 4th generation aircraft you buy now will be horribly outdated and outclassed by then.

With the F-35 you will get ongoing support and upgrades that will keep it viable for at least a few more decades.

I am of the mind that we need to have multiple options for our defence. As a G7 nation we have one of the largest and strongest economies and we can more than afford to defend ourselves and our values. We have a responsibility to contribute to global security through our participation with coalition operations. The media and the government have twisted the lense about peacekeeping so much in this country that the general populace doesn't understand that it's not about peace keeping but peace making. In order to make peace one must be prepared to do so through force. A soldier in fatigues with a smile won't cut it.

In today's world unless it's state on state our forces are attempting to make peace in failed states. We hold air superiority in virtually every situation. We don't need to use a sledge hammer to kill ants. As such we need to have a tiered response fit for the purpose. In order to do this we need multiple platform choices.

Canada IMHO needs the F35 for some tasks and contributions to allied scenarios but I also see the need for Growlers and a low and slow option like the AT6.

Canada is a vast nation but most of our bases are in the south. If Russia is a concern then we need to base fighters in the north to provide a rapid response to incursions.

Like New Zealand, Canada has no direct threat as no one is close enough to mount a threat with aircraft to our population centres. Our fighters will likely be needed to deploy to Latvia to support our planned placement of a battalion in the country to counter Russian aggression.

I am no fan of our Libtard PM, his father, his politics or his cronies who have for more than fifty years shown their disdain for everything military.

With the legacy CF18's now in service for 32 years it's an abomination. The so called peace dividend has been wasted on social programs and beuracracy. When the poop hits the fan it will be too late for us. We will watch from the sidelines as our aircraft are either left in their hangars or dropped from the skies. I have grave concerns for our brave servicemen and women who so willingly serve this country.

So to answer the original question "What is the best fighter for Canada?"

Anything that is comparable to our legacy fleet, that won't break the bank and that will work with our existing stocks of munitions. I'm good with F35, Shornet or Gripen. Or a mix.

ngatimozart said:

I think one big difference between Australia and Canada (include NZ too) is that Australia has had enemy attacks on its homeland within living memory. That tends to colour a nations attitude towards defence.

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Absolutely, along with geography and a citizenry that recognizes that national defence is important. Australians get this and IMHO New Zealanders get it it way better than Canadians.

hauritz said:

But you aren't arming for short term threats. Any fighter you choose now will still be serving in 2050.

Any 4th generation aircraft you buy now will be horribly outdated and outclassed by then.

With the F-35 you will get ongoing support and upgrades that will keep it viable for at least a few more decades.

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Agreed, that's what junior's minions need to drill into his peon brain. As a failed drama teacher with a famous last name and in charge of a political party and government that is beyond stupid, I will not be holding my breath. fftopic:

@ Nova, a mixed fleet maybe but the the main fleet, F-35 is the only realistic choice. We should discuss this on the RCAF thread along with your preference for the Airbus 295 for FWSAR.

Why not make Canadian Forces formally & officially part of UK forces? Then the 2 countries' financial & mil. assets can be combined! But there must be a reason for complacency: in the real world, Russia is only resisting what it perceives a threat from NATO, incl. in the Arctic, & unlike the US & Denmark, she doesn't claim the NW Passage there as having "international strait status" nor the island off Greenland, respectively. Sorry to say it, but to me, an independent observer, Canada looks like a US dominion since she always follows orders from Washington!

Tsavo Lion said:

Why not make Canadian Forces formally & officially part of UK forces? Then the 2 countries' financial & mil. assets can be combined! But there must be a reason for complacency: in the real world, Russia is only resisting what it perceives a threat from NATO, incl. in the Arctic, & unlike the US & Denmark, she doesn't claim the NW Passage there as having "international strait status" nor the island off Greenland, respectively. Sorry to say it, but to me, an independent observer, Canada looks like a US dominion since she always follows orders from Washington!

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Considering some how in some ones wisdom they got rid of there Anti Ship missile capability I' not sure the Canadian forces becoming part of the UK forces is the best idea. Better to become part of the ADF who fields a similar sized force that can be used as a basis to build the Canadian forces around.

Canadian defence has bobbed along since the end of WW2 following the actions of the main players at the table. The lack of a conventional threat to Canada combined with our non aggressive nature and our lack lustre governments we are left wondering what our military role truly is in this world. Under liberal leadership our successive governments have hidden the greatness of our warriors in protecting the downtrodden while not being allowed to fight. Rwanda, the Balkans, Cyprus and countless other $&@" holes. It wasn't until Afghanistan that our forces got the attention they deserved at home.

Defence acquisition is based upon job creation and industrial benefits more so than capacity or capability.

Boeing offers more of these IRB's than Lockheed. Therefore we will get Super Hornet. I hope its more than 20 and includes Growlers but I can only hope. F35 will eventually happen but not under Junior.

These are the only two realistic options. The Euro fighters are more expensive and too different from what we are used too. American.

Doesn't hurt that Bombardier and Boeing are in bed. Guess who will maintain them once they are bought? Probably a kickback for not getting anything from the soon to be announced FWSAR program.

And the gravy train continues.

Novascotiaboy said:

Boeing offers more of these IRB's than Lockheed. Therefore we will get Super Hornet. I hope its more than 20 and includes Growlers but I can only hope. F35 will eventually happen but not under Junior.

These are the only two realistic options. The Euro fighters are more expensive and too different from what we are used too. American.

Doesn't hurt that Bombardier and Boeing are in bed. Guess who will maintain them once they are bought? Probably a kickback for not getting anything from the soon to be announced FWSAR program.

And the gravy train continues.

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While it would be unusual to move away from the Super Hornet or Advanced Super Hornet and F-35 path of allies, especially given the history of operating the family, have you considered the possibility of Canadian F-15SE Silent Eagles?

Noone has ordered these, correct? So there would be a costly overhead to start its production. Maybe if the saudis had not preferred the mainline F-15 over the Silent Eagle in 2012 ...

Ironically the F15 was in consideration during the purchase of the F18A fleet back in the late 70's early 80's. It was too much aircraft and was deemed too expensive. Today at US$110 million per aircraft its still more expensive than an F35A. An awesome aircraft but it wont happen.

Expect a Super Hornet purchase before Christmas. The announcement will be likely made on a Friday afternoon and be very low key to avoid scrutiny.

In my life I risk manage everyday, as a safety advisor and fire rescue officer my work revolves around a two letter word, IF. If nothing happens all is good. That's the governments view. But if something happens we need to be prepared with trained crews and excellent equipment to deal with the event. I don't fight fires with a bucket of water and leather hoses anymore and the time has long past for 32 year old in service aircraft regardless of how well they are maintained.

If a buy of Rhinos or Growlers will give our airmen and women a higher level of protection then I am OK with it. The USN will continue to run this aircraft for many decades to come. I would be happy with Gripens at this point. Excellent aircraft with enviable reliability record, American weapon system integration and modestly priced.

SH buy happening now, details to follow on RCAF thread.

Did China Just Render America's $1 Trillion Stealth Fighter Program Obsolete?- & fighters can find & engage it in case surface to air Ms can't! This may be 1 more "nail in the coffin"! All things considered, F-18E/F sale to Canada now makes sense, and they'll be flown for decades, just like USN legacy F-18C/Ds. They will remain in the fleet until 2030.

Tsavo Lion said:

Did China Just Render America's $1 Trillion Stealth Fighter Program Obsolete?- & fighters can find & engage it in case surface to air Ms can't! This may be 1 more "nail in the coffin"! All things considered, F-18E/F sale to Canada now makes sense, and they'll be flown for decades, just like USN legacy F-18C/Ds. They will remain in the fleet until 2030.

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We require reliable valid sources not pseudo information sites that spread misinformation that have no relationship to the actual facts.

You also do not need to italicise or underline you links. Just leave them as they are. The BB coding knows that they are http links and formats them as such.

For what Canada would spend on F18s they can spend a similar amount on F35As and gain far greater capability. More bang for buck.

ngatimozart said:

For what Canada would spend on F18s they can spend a similar amount on F35As and gain far greater capability. More bang for buck.

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Unfortunately this will not happen now as our POS PM has committed to an interim buy of 18 SHs. This stop-gap is really a plan to put all other jets at a disadvantage for the open-bid in 5 years. Yes, the main order is 5 years away! Oh, and WTF knows how long the actual POs will take for either of these purchases.

There was no way Jr was going to buy the F35. This purchase of Super Hornets will provide the only combat aircraft that will be fielded by this nation by 2025. By this date our legacy F18A models will be forty years old. And we called the F104 a widow maker. What will the government do when we start loosing aircraft due to fatigue issues or block obsolescence?

Military needs were glossed over during the live announcement in favour of the IRB's and 100% return on the investment.

On the other hand maybe Jr knows that UCAV technology will supplant manned fighters in a decades time. Using the Sea King saga as a timeline for the fighter replacement program new combat aircraft should reach FOC by 2030.

Novascotiaboy said:

.On the other hand maybe Jr knows that UCAV technology will supplant manned fighters in a decades time. Using the Sea King saga as a timeline for the fighter replacement program new combat aircraft should reach FOC by 2030.

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I am assuming your sarcasm button was left on. Junior knows sweet-?uck-all about most things but especially aerospace and national defence. As for your estimated timeline for FOC, it sounds about right as long as no clusters develop to put off a replacement (e.g. the CSC program runs into huge problems or some kind of financial crisis for which he would be the likely cause).

A quick confab with his trusted security advisor SIRI should have been able to provide info on UCAV's. Maybe he will send Saijjin to Radio Shack or Canadian Tire for some quad copters to cover the Mali mission.

18 aircraft. At two per month be manufactured and current orders for USN and now Kuwait that should put initial delivery around 2019 or 2020 if they get an order placed in 2017. Unlikely.

Bluey 006 said:

While it would be unusual to move away from the Super Hornet or Advanced Super Hornet and F-35 path of allies, especially given the history of operating the family, have you considered the possibility of Canadian F-15SE Silent Eagles?

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Planned $100m average per unit cost back in 2009 and that was when they where looking at orders totaling a few hundred... 65 ordered by Canada alone would be vastly more costly not to mention them being the sole operators far more costly to maintain.

Would be a higher risk more costly option then the F-35.

John Fedup said:

Unfortunately this will not happen now as our POS PM has committed to an interim buy of 18 SHs. This stop-gap is really a plan to put all other jets at a disadvantage for the open-bid in 5 years. Yes, the main order is 5 years away! Oh, and WTF knows how long the actual POs will take for either of these purchases.

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Oh the mind boggles!

Why 5 bloody years? The legacy Hornets are barely holding up even now from what I hear. I can only assume its so its beyond his current term in gov and that he doesn't have to deal with the very real possibility that the comp will recommend the F35 right? Who is to say if the Boeing SH line will even still be open in 5 years time... it could be nearly a one horse race by then.

Those 18 interim Super Hornets are going to have some work cut out for them while this circus goes on.