Is the Super Hornet the best fighter for the Canadian Forces

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
As long as you don't get something like we had in NZ and some amazing rationale like a "Benign security environment" and "more urgent priorities" to disestablish things. I'd be surprised if you didn't get the F-35 but I would be surprised if you get a full complement. Best of luck though.
Unfortunately the Canadian public has a benign security environment view. This is a partial consequence of living next to a superpower. As former PM Brian Mulroney once said, "Canadians are a bunch of whiners". Social handouts are more popular than taking care of the national interest. I agree that the F-35 will hopefully be selected but the number likely won't be 65. We we be luckly to get 50.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Unfortunately the Canadian public has a benign security environment view. This is a partial consequence of living next to a superpower. As former PM Brian Mulroney once said, "Canadians are a bunch of whiners". Social handouts are more popular than taking care of the national interest. I agree that the F-35 will hopefully be selected but the number likely won't be 65. We we be luckly to get 50.
I hope the Govt has a reality check then - because the russian international submissions on extending their continental shelf and redraw their internationally recognised boundarys due to ice melting has a direct impact on potential future canadian resources revenue....

the CDF realise it, but successive Govts are making them toothless to do their job
 

t68

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if I am understanding this correct, John is saying that the PM is deferring the replace aircraft buy untill his second term if he gets re-elected which if I understand it a federal general election has to happen in 2019(?)

Know no matter which goverment comes to power 2019/20 is the earliest that they will call for replacements if the have not done an evaluation before hand. From my reading the original OSD was between 2020-3. Depending on production slots for what ever aircraft is chosen the RCAF might have to accept a capabilty gap or a costly CBR for some of the existing legacy Hornets. If CBR is chosen how long could they feasibly get out of the aircraft and buying up existing RAAF stock as F35A's come on line, is that even a feasable alternative?

It seems to me that the PM is tempting fate and setting the country up for an Aunty Helen type let down. How would the Canadian populace react to something like that given the amount needed for Defence across the board, would he use the same method of the submarine replacement as-well?
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I am not sure if I am understanding this correct, John is saying that the PM is deferring the replace aircraft buy until his second term if he gets re-elected which if I understand it a federal general election has to happen in 2019(?)
An election will be due in 2020. Trudeau has said that there will be no major defence procurements until 2020 which means in his second mandate.

How would the Canadian populace react to something like that given the amount needed for Defence across the board, would he use the same method of the submarine replacement as-well?
The Canadian populace are so apathetic about defence in general that Trudeau can pretty much defer major defence acquisitions until hell freezes over. A replacement for the Victoria class subs is unlikely unless the USA demands Canada step up (once the Australia sub replacement is up and running there should be a joint USA-Australia (and Japan) to force Canada to buy into the program IMHO.

It is likely that junior will have to state exactly he will do regarding the fighter replacement prior the 2020 election which means an evaluation result is needed before the election. I will love to see the spin if the process ends up recommending the jet he campaigned against in 2015!
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I hope the Govt has a reality check then - because the russian international submissions on extending their continental shelf and redraw their internationally recognised boundarys due to ice melting has a direct impact on potential future canadian resources revenue....

the CDF realise it, but successive Govts are making them toothless to do their job
Only direct Russian action to re-define boundaries will get any reality check by Canadian pollies. By then it will be too late unless the USA is willing to intervene. Frankly the USA should just demand a portion of what Russia wants to claim and call it a day. Denmark should do the same. Canadian sovereignty of its Arctic territory is an oxymoron.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
This approval notice for a Kuwait purchase of up to 40 Superhornets gives junior some more time to stall the fighter replacement program. According to Fight Global, combined with USN orders, the production line could extend to the early 2020s at a rate of 2 jets per month. I think this makes a decision on fighters more likely to occur after the next election.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ent-approves-kuwait-and-qatar-fighter-431637/
That would also extend if the RAAF get more aircraft. I was just reading something this afternoon that the JPO said there could be another dealy getting to full 3F standard, not sure if that would trigger the RAAF buy in or not.

Trying to remember which site I read it on now.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
That would also extend if the RAAF get more aircraft. I was just reading something this afternoon that the JPO said there could be another dealy getting to full 3F standard, not sure if that would trigger the RAAF buy in or not.

Trying to remember which site I read it on now.
The F35 situation would have to be pretty extremis for the RAAF to acquire any more. Methinks that horse has well and truly been flogged to death.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
First, I feel the the F-35 is the only solution for a viable fighter as Canada needs a jet that can remain competitive with features and future upgrades for the next 35-40 years. That being said, I really find this back and forth disagreement concerning the F-35's software status between Gilmore and the JPO/LM to be problematic, especially when the concurrency and pricing issues are factored in. This stuff makes junior's anti JSF stance a lot easier. In any event the on going decision delay on a Canadian sale has been made easier by the SH production extension and the F-35 program's progress.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
First, I feel the the F-35 is the only solution for a viable fighter as Canada needs a jet that can remain competitive with features and future upgrades for the next 35-40 years. That being said, I really find this back and forth disagreement concerning the F-35's software status between Gilmore and the JPO/LM to be problematic, especially when the concurrency and pricing issues are factored in. This stuff makes junior's anti JSF stance a lot easier. In any event the on going decision delay on a Canadian sale has been made easier by the SH production extension and the F-35 program's progress.
The F-35 is the only logical selection ... and as time goes on this will become even more obvious.

The problem that you now have a prime minister who seems to be openly anti - f35 and that has now made its selection a very political issue. For Trudeau to back down now and select the F-35 would mean losing a certain amount of face ... and politicians hate that.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
IMO, the upgraded F-15 could be better than F-18E/F or even the F-35. Another opton is F-16 with conformal fuel tanks. OTH, if US (& therefore, Canada's) relations with Russia improve, which is more likely now, & future CAF overseas deployments to hot spots curtailed/stopped, there will be a lot less need to buy more fighters!
Why do you think that US & Canadian relations with Russia will or should improve? Russia has done nothing to make that happen. Secondly, forget the Canadian governement acquiring the F15 for the RCAF. If they are balking at buying the F35 because of cost then that well and truly excludes the F15 because it is more expensive to acquire and operate than the F35 plus it has signifcantly less capability options. As for a upgraded F15 being better than the F35 that is absolute rubbish because all it would be is an expensive 4th++ generation aircraft Vs a 5th generation aircraft with far greater capabilities. It would be like taking a knife to a gun fight. I would suggest that you do some serious reading up on the F35 from reputable sources and Russian sites are not reputable especially regarding the F35.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
OTH, if US (& therefore, Canada's) relations with Russia improve, which is more likely now, & future CAF overseas deployments to hot spots curtailed/stopped, there will be a lot less need to buy more fighters!
The need more more aircraft is the replacement of existing aircraft which are become uneconomical to sustain, number of aircraft reflects the commitments that RCAF has under NATO and North Anerican defence treaty, as it stand now they cannot meet those commitments due to aircraft loses and fatigue.

When selecting aircraft one not only has to look at the now capabilty but speculate on future capabilty, unless the European start another program it might be better placing bets with a program that is expected to last well and truely into the 2040/50's along with upgrade spiral.whikst I like the teen aircraft and they still have a function into the 2020 beyond that is where the F35 will make its mark.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
IMO, the upgraded F-15 could be better than F-18E/F or even the F-35. Another opton is F-16 with conformal fuel tanks. OTH, if US (& therefore, Canada's) relations with Russia improve, which is more likely now, & future CAF overseas deployments to hot spots curtailed/stopped, there will be a lot less need to buy more fighters!
As much as I hate fighter vs fighter comparisons It is worth looking at this comparison between the F-35 and F-15E.

https://theaviationist.com/2016/06/...s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/

It is worth looking at for no other reason than it highlights the gap between 4th and 5th generation fighters in realistic simulated deployments.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
IMO, the upgraded F-15 could be better than F-18E/F or even the F-35. Another opton is F-16 with conformal fuel tanks. OTH, if US (& therefore, Canada's) relations with Russia improve, which is more likely now, & future CAF overseas deployments to hot spots curtailed/stopped, there will be a lot less need to buy more fighters!


Last I heard, the F15 was north of $110m a copy, and it has two engines so they're not cheap to run either. I think buying a 4G jet at this stage would have been like the RAF buying more Hawker Hinds as they were proven, affordable and available right off the shelf in 1939, instead of the complex, unproven and expensive Spitfires that were procured in real life.

Better to get on board with something that has an international customer base of well over 2000 copies - and for which the aftermarket upgrade options will be vast (many of the partner nations are building and integrating their own options like self protection systems from the get-go)
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Exactly right on 4G. Junior's 4G choice would be the SH, never the F-15 but hopefully his cabinet and industry point him in the correct direction, the F-35.
 

foxdemon

Member
I find the difference in attitudes toward defence between the Canadian and Australian publics to be a matter of curious its.

Canadians appear to be quite complacent even though they share a border with a revanchist Russia and thus face a real possibly of a direct threat on their own boarders. Whereas Australia, though viewing Chinese assertiveness with grave concern, isn't actually directly threatened. Yet, here we are busily arming ourselves to the teeth while Canadians twiddle their thumbs.

The Australian author, Donald Horne, wrote a book titled "The Lucky Country" in which he chided us for being too complacent (he mean't 'lucky' in the sense 'lucky we are still bloody here'). It seems Australia is no longer the 'lucky country'. Canadian can now claim that title.

Some other points of curiosity that the Canadian fighter debate illuminates are as follows:
1. Politicians need to be bipartisan on defence.
2. Big defence firms will play on public opinion if politicians don't provide bipartisan leadership.
3. Both of the above marginalise defence professionals and impact their ability to do their job.

Here in Australia we are fortunate to have some quite compedient politicians. However there has been some problems particularly in regard to certain air power lobby groups disturbing the harmony. Hopefully that influence will fade away before big defence companies start using them to influence popular and political opinions.
 

Tsavo Lion

Banned Member
Relations with Russia have now a lot better chance of improving after Trump assumes his presidency. Australia is in a tougher neighborhood than Canada- like late R. Reigan said: "nations don't trust each other because they're armed; they arm themselves because they don't trust each other!" That said, at least I was right about suggesting the F-16- it has 1 engine, not 2, and still in production! New variants of J-39 could also be considered. In fact, Swedish & Canadian climates r similar, with long coastlines to defend! Lastly, if anyone complains about Canada's falling behind her NORAD/NATO obligations, they should thank USA for helping to terminate the Arrow program that killed all future domestic-built interceptors!
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I find the difference in attitudes toward defence between the Canadian and Australian publics to be a matter of curious its.

Canadians appear to be quite complacent even though they share a border with a revanchist Russia and thus face a real possibly of a direct threat on their own boarders. Whereas Australia, though viewing Chinese assertiveness with grave concern, isn't actually directly threatened. Yet, here we are busily arming ourselves to the teeth while Canadians twiddle their thumbs.

The Australian author, Donald Horne, wrote a book titled "The Lucky Country" in which he chided us for being too complacent (he mean't 'lucky' in the sense 'lucky we are still bloody here'). It seems Australia is no longer the 'lucky country'. Canadian can now claim that title.

Some other points of curiosity that the Canadian fighter debate illuminates are as follows:
1. Politicians need to be bipartisan on defence.
2. Big defence firms will play on public opinion if politicians don't provide bipartisan leadership.
3. Both of the above marginalise defence professionals and impact their ability to do their job.

Here in Australia we are fortunate to have some quite compedient politicians. However there has been some problems particularly in regard to certain air power lobby groups disturbing the harmony. Hopefully that influence will fade away before big defence companies start using them to influence popular and political opinions.
I think one big difference between Australia and Canada (include NZ too) is that Australia has had enemy attacks on its homeland within living memory. That tends to colour a nations attitude towards defence.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I find the difference in attitudes toward defence between the Canadian and Australian publics to be a matter of curious its.

Canadians appear to be quite complacent even though they share a border with a revanchist Russia and thus face a real possibly of a direct threat on their own boarders. Whereas Australia, though viewing Chinese assertiveness with grave concern, isn't actually directly threatened. Yet, here we are busily arming ourselves to the teeth while Canadians twiddle their thumbs.

The Australian author, Donald Horne, wrote a book titled "The Lucky Country" in which he chided us for being too complacent (he mean't 'lucky' in the sense 'lucky we are still bloody here'). It seems Australia is no longer the 'lucky country'. Canadian can now claim that title.

Some other points of curiosity that the Canadian fighter debate illuminates are as follows:
1. Politicians need to be bipartisan on defence.
2. Big defence firms will play on public opinion if politicians don't provide bipartisan leadership.
3. Both of the above marginalise defence professionals and impact their ability to do their job.

Here in Australia we are fortunate to have some quite compedient politicians. However there has been some problems particularly in regard to certain air power lobby groups disturbing the harmony. Hopefully that influence will fade away before big defence companies start using them to influence popular and political opinions.
Our two countries are in very different environments. I am not sure how this grows brain cells with regard to self- preservation but I am assuming a fair bit. Pollies in Australia get it too a much greater degree than Canadian pollies. When it comes to the general public, their perception of national defence is a disgrace. I will admit that Australia needs to spend more on defence than Canada (geography and no friendly Superpower next store) but Canada is not pulling his weight. Trump may not offer much benefit to Canada but if he forces that POS junior to upgrade our capabilities then that is ok by me.
 
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