War Against ISIS
- Thread starter spikehades
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Like I said before what comes around goes around and although KSA and Iran deserve to be bit in the a$$, it really doesn't help the West or indeed the ROW much. If we could only turn the clock back to 2003 knowing what we know now. Assad must be laughing his butt off right now.
2007yellow430
Active Member
2003 was a failure of the press to investigate and report. There were huge flaws in the claims made to justify the war, but the investigation never took place. Consolidation of ownership of the media contributed to this. As an example, there was a study done regarding the suitability of the famous aluminum tubes done by the energy department in which they concluded they (the tubes) weren't suitable for centrifuges. No one found it, nor publicized it. Why is the bigger question, why wasn't it found and publicized?
Until the Media becomes more active, expect more of the same.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Perhaps the media did drop the ball but Saddam's harassment of UN inspection teams helped fuel the neo-cons BS that he had WMD. He had to give the impression he had them to keep his Middle East enemies at bay other than Israel. They certainly knew he wasn't even close.
it was never as simple as that. A relative of mine was on the UN inspection teams for 3 inspections spaced over 12 years. He's a scientist, not military. His consistent concern was that the Iraqis were unable to confirm where and when they had disposed of critical chemicals and materia, the missing material was significant and had been sighted by the same teams which did the initial inspections.
the above gets conveniently ignored by the press (the press with an agenda) that small but significant fact gets left out by those who focus on the other flawed processes.
he still today has concerns about where the balance of the lost material is. bear in mind that some of the material missing was in packages and containers that would be distressingly difficult to find in a large city/population
the concerns are still relevant - if not more so today. that doesn't alter the fact that the principle reason used to go to war was flawed and manipulated by an ieaqi with an agenda - but the UN concerns by those investigation teams was never resolved and is still outstanding
ISIS seems hell bent on getting Shiites really mad by publishing videos and pictures of its execution of Iraq soldiers.Self defeating as it would seem to the rest of us but ISIS doesn`t care after all there are 72 virgins waiting for each and everyone of them after martyrdom.
A rehashed 2013 article about the lone human face of ISIS killers.
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-shakir-wahiyib-isis-executioner-doesnt-hide-behind-mask-photo-1601478
A rehashed 2013 article about the lone human face of ISIS killers.
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-shakir-wahiyib-isis-executioner-doesnt-hide-behind-mask-photo-1601478
2007yellow430
Active Member
All of that may well be true, but had the population known that a goodly portion of the 'facts' weren't accurate, we would not have gone to war. This is an interesting read about this issue:
Buying the War: How Big Media Failed Us - BillMoyers.com
I'm not disputing the fact that people acted on flawed advice - especially when there were a whole pile of uniformed and informed professionals challenging that particular intel stream - but the issue of where the Iraqis disposed of all the identified weapons and chemicals was never addressed - and we're talking about 10's of thousand s of tonnes of some material which had been sighted by international observers prev, but were unable to be traced and identified on subsequent investigation visits.
soldiers weren't being injected for poss exposure to chem weapons on a whim - there was significant cause based on the UN invest teams/scientists that if this stuff could not be traced for disposal - then it was in the field and had the potential to be used. The Iraqis might have had lousy admin and accounting, but nobody at the time was going to risk their troops on an accounting failure
the above was mutually exclusive but was not considered in isolation when people made decisions. Curveball was but one factor. He should have not been the primary factor and was an example of people not following proper intel assessment procedures.
there's a whole lot of other information vectors involved here which like all serious events then converge into bad decisions being made - but I'm not one who subscribes to the notion of wilful intent.
anyway - this is way OT and shouldn't continue to pollute the core of this partic thread
The Iranians have already had their share of counter insurgency problems. Prior to Saddam invading, Iran he provided support to anti-Tehran groups who launched ttacks along the border. Iran has also fought a long running war against Kurd separatists of the 'Party for a Free Life in Kurdistan'. More recently the Baluch 'Jundallah' has hit several targets in Iran; which in turn has claimed that this Sunni group - which it describes as terrorists - receives support from foreign countries.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiFszRlzgao"]Inside Story - Iran suicide bombing - 19 Oct 09 - YouTube[/nomedia]
If that happens the Saudis will probably resort to what they always do: divert the attention of the extremists elsewhere and pacify them with cash or other goodies.
It really remains to be seen if ISIS can reach Baghdad or even capture parts of it. The problem is in finding a long term solution to this problem which is off course is far easier than it sounds; given the level of deep rooted animosity between the Sunnis and Shiites and the fact that there are outside powers involved who are doing their share of meddling. Soon after the civil war started in Syria it was said that Syria would never be the same again. We can now apply the same line to Iraq.
On a seperate note, the Malaysian police have arrested several people - allegedly linked to ISIS - who were planning to wage jihad in Syria and Iraq. One of those arrested is a serving member of the Royal Malaysian Navy [RMN]. It has also been confirmed that the 1st Malaysian suicide bomber has matyred himself in Iraq. He blew up an Iraqi police compound.
Blair has come up with an explanation as to why the current crisis in Iraq has occurred -
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ony-blair-get-away-with-his-lies-9538846.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/op...tern-military-meddlers-20146156654388265.html
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It seems ISIS is now in Libya and turning its guns on fellow jihadist.The chaos in Libya means it was only a matter of time before the merchants of death turned up with plenty of experience with ISIS and Al Nusra.
ISIS menace al-Qaeda in Derna | Magharebia
ISIS menace al-Qaeda in Derna | Magharebia
I understand what you are saying there about the unaccounted for chemicals but I'm not sure you realize just how the Chalabi/Curveball information was used in the US to sell the war. There were a number of intelligence reports based on information from curveball that were released to congress in a heavily redacted and edited form. What was at the bottom of these reports was vital to complete understanding. What it said was "This information comes from a single source who is not considered reliable". Unfortunately this line was redacted from the reports before congress or anyone else got to see them.
There were concerns in the intelligence community about the accuracy of the reports but Feith, Wolfowitz, Cheney et al managed to keep these concerns out of sight until it was too late. I guess after seeing this and watching what happened Valerie Plame and Joe Wilson, I have to lean toward them willfully misleading both congress and US citizens.
There were a number of articles by Judith Miller which appeared in the New York Times. These articles contained information - which later were proven largely to be untrue - on Saddam's WMDs and played a part in bolstering the arguement for Iraq to be invaded. Most of the information used in the articles were courtesy of Ahmad Chalebi.
There's a book I read, seemed a decent source titled, "the secret history of the Iraq War". In it it talks in great detail about the numerous components that were missing, and not just for WMD's I found but Jets, Tanks, and various arms that were supposedly buried in the Desert and many of the locations have been lost. I also read that prior to the US-led invasion, Baghdad was running several large trunk convoys to west and into Syria. Some speculated that WMD components could've also been smugglers out of the country in those convoys. It would also give Bashar Al-Assad chemical weapons potentially that aren't his giving him deniability in a chemical attack. Do you think there is any credence to these claims?
At least some of the stories about buried items are true. A couple years after the invasion they were startled to find a squadron of jets mothballed and buried under a sand dunes when they went to expand the Baghdad Airport. They never suspected they were there.
A flight of buried sukhois were discovered by Aust SASR in the nth east - there were photos published at the time.
Isis storms Saddam-era chemical weapons complex in Iraq - Telegraph
The story claims that there are hundreds of tons of chemical weapons in bunkers there, including Sarin and Mustard, many in weaponized form.
Presumably this was all placed here in the 1990s under inspection, but why didn’t the Coalition destroy them? Why didn’t the Press bring it to the world’s attention earlier? Anyone that was willing to take the risks, including the current government, could have gotten to these.
The story claims that there are hundreds of tons of chemical weapons in bunkers there, including Sarin and Mustard, many in weaponized form.
Presumably this was all placed here in the 1990s under inspection, but why didn’t the Coalition destroy them? Why didn’t the Press bring it to the world’s attention earlier? Anyone that was willing to take the risks, including the current government, could have gotten to these.
According to Channelnewsasia, the chemicals are not in a usable state. Also read from another source (BBC?) that the chemicals are stored in concrete i.e. inaccessible without the right know how.
Iraqi militants seize former chemical weapons factory - Channel NewsAsia
Interesting but I'm not alarmed. Unless the point is to spur the international community into action...?
Iraqi militants seize former chemical weapons factory - Channel NewsAsia
Interesting but I'm not alarmed. Unless the point is to spur the international community into action...?
Containing the Cancer?
Iraq, as we have known it, is probably gone now. ISIL appears to have expanded the Syrian battlespace into Iraq in a contiguous way. A couple of observations then. It seems unlikely that ISIL will be "defeated" directly in the Syria-Iraq sphere anytime soon without significant US military involvement. However, it might be more useful to just contain it. If the US directly attacks ISIL in Iraq (air strikes, SpecOps, etc) will it not be pressured to extend those efforts into Syria as well? (Not to help Assad --- ISIL is fighting against most of the other rebels too, it seems.)
But might the US encourage Turkey to work with the Kurds who have seized the oil facilities in the north from ISIL, plus encourage what remains of the Shiite security forces and governance in the south, to just lock up ISIL where they are now? Perhaps after a while the landlocked and isolated ISIL fighters will begin to feed on themselves.
Iraq, as we have known it, is probably gone now. ISIL appears to have expanded the Syrian battlespace into Iraq in a contiguous way. A couple of observations then. It seems unlikely that ISIL will be "defeated" directly in the Syria-Iraq sphere anytime soon without significant US military involvement. However, it might be more useful to just contain it. If the US directly attacks ISIL in Iraq (air strikes, SpecOps, etc) will it not be pressured to extend those efforts into Syria as well? (Not to help Assad --- ISIL is fighting against most of the other rebels too, it seems.)
But might the US encourage Turkey to work with the Kurds who have seized the oil facilities in the north from ISIL, plus encourage what remains of the Shiite security forces and governance in the south, to just lock up ISIL where they are now? Perhaps after a while the landlocked and isolated ISIL fighters will begin to feed on themselves.