The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

Padfoot

New Member
Just to substantiate the increasingly wider directions both countries are taking, Turkey defense minister responds in parliament to state that 116 F-35s may be acquired.

Turkey May Buy Up to 116 F-35s: Defense Minister - Defense News

RAF trend?

RAF cuts 'worry' senior commander - Defence Management

"Air Vice-Marshal Greg Bagwell expressed concern at government plans to cut the number of fast-jet squadrons from 12 to eight during an interview with Defense News.

Air Vice-Marshal Bagwell also expressed concern that Britain might end up with six fast-jet squadrons by 2020, which "might not be quite enough".

The RAF in the next ten years "will be a six-squadron world; that's what's on the books," he said, adding that he expected five squadrons of Typhoon and one of Joint Strike Fighters by 2020."

So much for Europe's premier military power....
The UK has always been scheduled to take delivery of most of its F35 order from between 2020 and 2027. Turkey most of its order before 2020. Nothing has changed one iota.

Are you suggesting Turkey will rival the UK as a military power by 2020? How does their navy stack up? Their expeditionary capability? Can they strike beyond their own region with a land attack missile system, or even with their large F-35 numbers?
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

The UK has always been scheduled to take delivery of most of its F35 order from between 2020 and 2027. Turkey most of its order before 2020. Nothing has changed one iota.
And what exactly will be the actual F-35C order?

Are you suggesting Turkey will rival the UK as a military power by 2020? How does their navy stack up? Their expeditionary capability? Can they strike beyond their own region with a land attack missile system, or even with their large F-35 numbers?
Those are lazy questions.

14 Type 209s make for a mean littoral sub capability + another 6 Type 214s with Mk-48s (contract signed in 09).

16+ frigates including 8 OHPs not counting corvettes. Another 4 AAW frigates with potentially SM-2 blk IV which will more than outrange the Aster-30s.

4 commando brigades with airborne/air mobile capability. More transport aircraft with CN-235s, C-160s and C-130s (not to mention they're getting A-400Ms as well).

Seen a map lately? Turkey can put more foot-soldiers on the ground in Iraq than the US and not just the UK. Why would it need an expeditionary capability to do so? It can also deploy much more soldiers in Afghanistan than the UK. And if there's a war in Iran, it can field more aircraft and soldiers than the entire RAF/Royal Army will ever be able to. If it chose to.

What kind of an expeditionary force will it need in comparison to the UK? It doesn't need to defend the falklands. It doesn't need a land attack capability beyond the region. It can commit far more forces to NATO. And it certainly doesn't need an irrelevant nuclear capability (Turkey houses nuclear weapons (US owned) on its territory which it can ironically seize if there's a need.)

Ever seen its artillery capability recently? besides MLRS with ATACMs, it has its own self built SRBMs with the B-611 (or locally known as the J-600T) and its own arty rockets eg SAGE-PARs as well as the china-co-oped WS-1.

You might want to read the last time the French and British tried invading Turkey at a little place called Gallipoli.

Turkey doesn't need to claim to be a military power in Europe. Their numbers do the talking. And its military budget is still 4 times less.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

i was under the impression turkey was part of Asia not Europe, however i could be wrong
lol. Thanks for the clarification. I always suspected the European Union (and before that the EC) got their geography wrong when they accepted Turkey as an associate member. The funny think is that the UK is a principal supporter for Turkey's full inclusion in the EU.

UN's geography dept is even worse when they grouped Turkey under WEOG (Western Europe and others group).
 

riksavage

Banned Member
And what exactly will be the actual F-35C order?



Those are lazy questions.

14 Type 209s make for a mean littoral sub capability + another 6 Type 214s with Mk-48s (contract signed in 09).

16+ frigates including 8 OHPs not counting corvettes. Another 4 AAW frigates with potentially SM-2 blk IV which will more than outrange the Aster-30s.

4 commando brigades with airborne/air mobile capability. More transport aircraft with CN-235s, C-160s and C-130s (not to mention they're getting A-400Ms as well).

Seen a map lately? Turkey can put more foot-soldiers on the ground in Iraq than the US and not just the UK. Why would it need an expeditionary capability to do so? It can also deploy much more soldiers in Afghanistan than the UK. And if there's a war in Iran, it can field more aircraft and soldiers than the entire RAF/Royal Army will ever be able to. If it chose to.

What kind of an expeditionary force will it need in comparison to the UK? It doesn't need to defend the falklands. It doesn't need a land attack capability beyond the region. It can commit far more forces to NATO. And it certainly doesn't need an irrelevant nuclear capability (Turkey houses nuclear weapons (US owned) on its territory which it can ironically seize if there's a need.)

Ever seen its artillery capability recently? besides MLRS with ATACMs, it has its own self built SRBMs with the B-611 (or locally known as the J-600T) and its own arty rockets eg SAGE-PARs as well as the china-co-oped WS-1.

You might want to read the last time the French and British tried invading Turkey at a little place called Gallipoli.

Turkey doesn't need to claim to be a military power in Europe. Their numbers do the talking. And its military budget is still 4 times less.
Turkey has always had one of the biggest standing armies in NATO largely driven by ongoing tensions with Greece. Also you can't make military budget comparisons. One of the largest outlays is manpower costs. The UK spends a great deal more than Turkey on the human content of its armed forces (wages, personal equipment, training, housing, schooling, pensions etc.). Plus Turkey still operates a conscript system, if the country were to professionalise its armed forces they would have to either dramatically cut numbers or increase the budget by a substantial margin.

Turkey has limited expeditionary capabilities, which means it is very much confined to the defence of the homeland or localised engagements (Iraq). It has gone for quantity over quality like most conscript armies. The UK is an island nation protected by 25 miles of channel, they have decided to stick with a small professional but highly flexible military, which has been on constant active service without a break since 1969 (1968 being the only year since 1066 when a british soldier has not fired a shot in anger).

Also you can't cherry pick a system (F16 / F35 purchases) and then make wild claims about the a countries military usurping another's. I could make any number of counter claims comparing UK assets/capabilities with Turkeys which would turn your argument on its head (comparing heavy rotary lift, strategic transport, SSN/SSBN submarines, military satellites, ISTAR capabilities, future carrier strike, TacTom, UAV/UCAV inventory blah, blah, blah). Incidentally how many of Turkey's C130's are fully servicable, how many are the latest J model, how many are equiped to fly in hostile environment day & night (electronic counter measures etc.)? Numbers written on a piece of paper don't tell the full story.

The UK's argument for reducing fast air numbers is driven by the prevailing threat and cost concerns. Last time I looked the UK was largely engaged in asymmetrical warfare. The planned UK Typhoon fleet of tranche I & III aircraft will be enough to defend UK airspace, protect the Falklands and still allow for the occasional overseas adventure. Add the rest of NATO's air flotilla and you have plenty of aircraft to mitigate any current conventional threats to Western Europe. The F35C fleet will be purchased in tranches, the first may only be 40 - 50 airframes to provide the bare minimum for an active QE Carrier and provide deep strike coverage. This does not stop the UK buying more should the threat change or funds become available. The UK has to prioritise according to need, the decision to upgrade its Chinook fleet to HC4 & 5 standard (finally ending up with 60 odd airframes) to me is a greater priority than ramping up fast jet numbers to 'keep up' with the likes of Turkey. Unlike Turkey, the UK hasn't had the occasional dog-fight with a rival (last Greece/Turkey air-to-air clash being 1996) in 25 years.

Once the QE class is up and running I bet you will see a higher ratio of attack/medium/heavy lift helo's than fast air in an operational context. Not because of the lack of F35C numbers, but because the UK is more likely to get involved in strategic raiding against failed states (Yemen, Somalia, Sierra Leone) than having to protect the fleet against modern fast jets. The primary role of the QE will be to provide a piece of UK controlled real estate facilitating CAS shared between Apache and F35C whilst the embarked Merlin/Chinook fleet lifts 3 Commando.

I thought this was an RN thread not a mine is bigger than yours forum?
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Its not about usurping power. Its about making wild claims about being a premier military power in Europe. Had a lot to say about the post but decided to focus on the issue of prevailing threat and cost.

The RAF hasn't had an air to air kill credited for more than 50 years. That is not due to asymetrical warfare or lack of opportunity.

Allied force (Dutch F-16s), Iraqi Freedom, Desert Storm etc. RAF lost 7 tornados during desert storm. In all cases, RAF fighters were deployed and not a single kill was scored. That does not validate that the RAF wouldn't need fast jet fighters or that doctrine has changed. Do the prevailing threats and expeditions that RAF/RN enters into require fast jet support? I'd say it does based on history.

Unless one is arguing that air combat capability is no longer needed (humbug!), then I'd understand the context of the responses. But budget prioritisation appears skewed in that direction ie no need air combat capability.

I simply can't understand how can a Turkey that spends 4 times less end up with more air force capability than the RAF? Spending 4 times the budget compared to Turkey to get less than their air combat capability cannot be explained by simple prioritisation of chinooks. If you can't manage with 4 times the budget, what makes anyone think there will be 5 times the budget to get more fast jets in the future?

The chinooks themselves have a sorry mismanaged tale of their own...

I agree salaries explain a large bit. Another significant expenditure are the housing, operations and maintenance costs. Those alone account for 2/3rds of the expenditure.

Based on 2009 budget (£36bn), the breakdown is as follows:
Personnel costs/salaries - £14bn;
Operations and maintenance - £11.5bn;
Research and development - £3bn;
Procurement - £7bn;
Construction – £0.4bn.

However, salaries do not translate into military power. If a military can maintain an army at 1/8 your salary with a budget 1/4 the size, essentially that army will be double in size. There-in lies much of the inefficiencies.

Having said that, with a £7bn annual procurement budget, that should afford combat capability far beyond its current size. That's where the RN comes in.

Type 45s that cost £1bn+ each. Unwanted £?bn CVFs. Mismanaged MRA4 project = £?bn, etc Mod. Text Deleted. When a Mod indicates that comments need to be reviewed and edited its for a reason. Snippy comments like this add nothing to the debate. Formal Warning issued

And that's not even including the Vanguard replacements.
 
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riksavage

Banned Member
The RAF hasn't had an air to air kill credited for more than 50 years. That is not due to asymmetrical warfare or lack of opportunity.

Allied force (Dutch F-16s), Iraqi Freedom, Desert Storm etc. RAF lost 7 tornados during desert storm. In all cases, RAF fighters were deployed and not a single kill was scored. That does not validate that the RAF wouldn't need fast jet fighters or that doctrine has changed. Do the prevailing threats and expeditions that RAF/RN enters into require fast jet support? I'd say it does based on history.


Every country has experienced defence programme mismanagement at some point or other, I could list about ten projects ranging from Nimrod, Seasprite, Indian jet trainer procurement through to the US's new LPD 17's. I'm sure even Turkey has had it's problems in the past.

With regard to the RAF, Tranche II & III Typhoon represent a significant step-change and I certainly wouldn't switch them for F16's. Talking of which how many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by Dutch F16's during Iraqi Freedom/Desert Storm? UK Tornado loses were encountered during deep strike missions and none were lost to enemy fighters. The US lost 20+ fixed wing aircraft over the same period (including seven F-16 during combat operations between January 16 and February 28). Deep strike was a far riskier mission than flying CAP at high altitude.

Typhoon integrated with F35C supported by longer range UCAV's means the UK has enough assets to defend its interests. Last time I looked the Russian Bear /Chinese Dragon weren't sabre rattling and Islamic fundamentals have yet to deploy a 5th Gen fighter. Even if Iran/NK kick-off they have nothing in their inventory to outmatch either Typhoon or the F series.

UK straegic planners are focused on the three block war and see assymetical conflict as the main threat over the short to medium term. UK forces will continue to be deployed to trouble spots even after the 2014 planned A-Stan draw down. Yemen is already on the radar as a growing base for terrorism, and I'm sure other failed states will raise their ugly heads. Whilst the UK needs to retain a credible cutting edge figher force, they don't need the same levels seen during the cold war. The future will require an all-arms flexible force supported by cutting edge technology. Whether we like it or not such technology comes at a price, that's why the UK won't be planning any more 1000 bomber night raids as witnessed in WWII.

The UK will build a military force to ensure its strategic interests are met within an ever tightening budget. Retaining industry skill sets is part of that strategic goal. The expensive price of the T45 was a result of reducing the order from 12 to 6 hulls. Unfortunately the end of the cold war and economic factors made the original number untenable. Whilst we can knock the UK for spending over the odds to retain a credible domestic defence industry they have learnt some hash lessons and are considered global leaders in certain areas (fixed and rotary wing aircraft 20+ year availability contacts and ammunition availability contracts, see below) all aimed at guaranteeing long-term skills retention and manufacturing excellence.

MASS for Effect: The UK’s Long-Term Ammo Contract

I think we need to re-focus on the RN.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Time for some of you to edit out your snippy comments.

get rid of them asap before we do.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
i was under the impression turkey was part of Asia not Europe, however i could be wrong
Geographically it's both Asian & European. Of the four capital cities in the last 700 years, one is wholly in Europe, two wholly in Asia, & one was wholly in Europe, but has since spread into Asia, & is the largest & richest city in the country.

I was once on a ferry between two small towns, chatting with a couple of locals (one from each town, friends), who told me that they didn't say "I'm going to Eceabat", or "He's from Canakkale", but "I'm going to Europe", or "He's Asian". Little local joke.

Turkey has been closely associated with Europe economically, politically, & militarily, for a very long time. That's why it was classed by the UN in WEOG - as is Cyprus, for the same reasons, despite being geographically 100% in Asia.

For the same reasons, the Canaries & Madeira are classified with Europe, instead of Africa, which is where they belong geographically.

Now we've dealt with that, can we please drop the digressions & return to the Royal Navy?
 

1805

New Member
The RAF hasn't had an air to air kill credited for more than 50 years. That is not due to asymmetrical warfare or lack of opportunity.

Allied force (Dutch F-16s), Iraqi Freedom, Desert Storm etc. RAF lost 7 tornados during desert storm. In all cases, RAF fighters were deployed and not a single kill was scored. That does not validate that the RAF wouldn't need fast jet fighters or that doctrine has changed. Do the prevailing threats and expeditions that RAF/RN enters into require fast jet support? I'd say it does based on history.


Every country has experienced defence programme mismanagement at some point or other, I could list about ten projects ranging from Nimrod, Seasprite, Indian jet trainer procurement through to the US's new LPD 17's. I'm sure even Turkey has had it's problems in the past.

With regard to the RAF, Tranche II & III Typhoon represent a significant step-change and I certainly wouldn't switch them for F16's. Talking of which how many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by Dutch F16's during Iraqi Freedom/Desert Storm? UK Tornado loses were encountered during deep strike missions and none were lost to enemy fighters. The US lost 20+ fixed wing aircraft over the same period (including seven F-16 during combat operations between January 16 and February 28). Deep strike was a far riskier mission than flying CAP at high altitude.

.
The 7 RAF Tornado losses were far higher in proportion to US losses and were a direct result of employing tactics that had proved unsuccessful 20 years before in Vietnam. Flying low and fast rather than using stand off guided munitions. Which they eventually did by deploying Buccaneers when RAF losses started to become an embarrassment to the Coalition forces. This is probably also why RAF training losses on Tornados exceeded the Luftwaffe and Aeronautica Militare.

Yes other countries have equipment procurement disasters but the UK seems to have more than most and certainly more than it can now afford.

Much of this comes from excessive innovation, new systems that have no common development path with older systems, greatly increase the risk of issues. (T45, Astute etc)

I agree with the point weasel1962 is trying to make, not that Turkey has forces equal or better than the UK, but that it is getting better value for money out of it's budget, and this is not just manpower costs.

This situation will continue until there is an acceptance that something is wrong with the UK's armed forces and far from punching above its weight it is underperforming. Merely crossing figures and hoping money will be found in the future will not sort the problem.

This is not so shocking, there are plenty of times when Britain's armed forces have not performed and the recognition of these darker periods have often then led to some of our greatest successes. (1940-42 lead to 1943-45?)
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I agree with the point weasel1962 is trying to make, not that Turkey has forces equal or better than the UK, but that it is getting better value for money out of it's budget, and this is not just manpower costs.
Thanks! I was struggling to find the words and you nailed in a sentence.

Russia affords 4 new french mistresses...Australians salivate over a 4 year-old ex-RN lager... bit'er changes...
 

deepsixteen

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The 7 RAF Tornado losses were far higher in proportion to US losses and were a direct result of employing tactics that had proved unsuccessful 20 years before in Vietnam. Flying low and fast rather than using stand off guided munitions. Which they eventually did by deploying Buccaneers when RAF losses started to become an embarrassment to the Coalition forces. This is probably also why RAF training losses on Tornados exceeded the Luftwaffe and Aeronautica Militare.

Yes other countries have equipment procurement disasters but the UK seems to have more than most and certainly more than it can now afford.

Much of this comes from excessive innovation, new systems that have no common development path with older systems, greatly increase the risk of issues. (T45, Astute etc)

I agree with the point weasel1962 is trying to make, not that Turkey has forces equal or better than the UK, but that it is getting better value for money out of it's budget, and this is not just manpower costs.

This situation will continue until there is an acceptance that something is wrong with the UK's armed forces and far from punching above its weight it is underperforming. Merely crossing figures and hoping money will be found in the future will not sort the problem.

This is not so shocking, there are plenty of times when Britain's armed forces have not performed and the recognition of these darker periods have often then led to some of our greatest successes. (1940-42 lead to 1943-45?)
Hi
Couple of things the Astute class is not behind due to excessive innovation it is behind and over cost due to the UK taking a holiday on Submarine building post Vanguard, lesson in that about holidays or capability gaps as I prefer to call them. One that I have no expectation that the present crop of politicos will learn, as they are presently busy spending an extra 37% (4Billion) on overseas aid! Good to see the pittance being saved scrapping the Ark and its Harriers being put to good purpose. Hope your friend isn’t planning on staying on at Westminster after the next election 1805.

It should also be obvious to all that you are not getting better value for money in defence if the opposition can turn up with inferior numbers and beat you due to their technological superiority. For example I would not expect the Typhoon’s at MPA to succumb to the entire might of the FAA and you would not be getting value for money purchasing cheap warships that are not up to the tasks designated for them.

I do however know that things could be done more cost effectively and I’m all for value for money provided it is not at the cost of lives as tends to be the case when politico’s need to save money. I do not agree that there is something wrong with the military per say I would say that procurement needs urgent reform and the military budget needs to be set at a realistic level which in my view would be around 3% GDP. It is interesting that politico’s tend to ignore inconvenient facts like the fall in the % spent despite the ongoing conflicts and the negative impact these have had on men and material.

Nice to be reminded how possibly the best ever naval strike aircraft bailed out the RAF in the twilight of its service and a reminder of the point that naval strike aircraft are usable everywhere.
 

1805

New Member
Hi
Couple of things the Astute class is not behind due to excessive innovation it is behind and over cost due to the UK taking a holiday on Submarine building post Vanguard, lesson in that about holidays or capability gaps as I prefer to call them. One that I have no expectation that the present crop of politicos will learn, as they are presently busy spending an extra 37% (4Billion) on overseas aid! Good to see the pittance being saved scrapping the Ark and its Harriers being put to good purpose. Hope your friend isn’t planning on staying on at Westminster after the next election 1805.

It should also be obvious to all that you are not getting better value for money in defence if the opposition can turn up with inferior numbers and beat you due to their technological superiority. For example I would not expect the Typhoon’s at MPA to succumb to the entire might of the FAA and you would not be getting value for money purchasing cheap warships that are not up to the tasks designated for them.

I do however know that things could be done more cost effectively and I’m all for value for money provided it is not at the cost of lives as tends to be the case when politico’s need to save money. I do not agree that there is something wrong with the military per say I would say that procurement needs urgent reform and the military budget needs to be set at a realistic level which in my view would be around 3% GDP. It is interesting that politico’s tend to ignore inconvenient facts like the fall in the % spent despite the ongoing conflicts and the negative impact these have had on men and material.

Nice to be reminded how possibly the best ever naval strike aircraft bailed out the RAF in the twilight of its service and a reminder of the point that naval strike aircraft are usable everywhere.
You might get some support for an increase in spending on defence, until you mention how this is to be paid for. It's difficult to justify spending more money on defence when the defence establishment waste so much of it.

Not really a very good point on the aid budget although popular with the Daily Mail, much of this is to support export and foreign policy objectives.

I have never suggested we build anything not up to the job, however I do feel numbers are reaching a critical level if the UK still wants to have a significant global role. I don't believe in building things we can't afford and just waste.

Do you really think this is all the politican's fault?
 

spsun100001

New Member
I wrote to the MOD asking for information regarding some elements of the SDR that were not apparent to me in the published document or the press releases and received a reply from Lt. Cdr Barton at the Equipment Capability Secretariat that I wanted to share.

Some stuff (such as which specific RFA's will be lost has since emerged) so I'll stick to stuff I hadn't heard about already.

I've noticed recently that one or two links or stories posted by folks have met with a response along the lines of 'I knew that months ago'. If you already knew the stuff here then that's great but I'm posting it for those of us who perhaps have an amateur interest rather than professional involvment in the defence field and who might not be so well informed so please consider those of us who don't already know everything about everything.

Type 45

I asked if there were plans to fit Harpoon and ASW torpedoes to the Type 45 since the reduction in escort numbers makes it vital that all escorts can operate independently against the full range of threats in high risk areas such as trhe Gulf.

The letter conformed that these systems will not be fitted and the ship will continue to rely on its helicopter to provide these capabilities.

I find this is particularly disappointing as that means the ships will have to continue to deploy with the less capable Lynx due to the Merlin being unable to carry Sea Skua ASM's.

I also asked when the Co-operative Engagement Capability would be fitted. I understand this was originally planned for 2013. The letter said this will now take place in 2018. A very disappointing failure to exploit the full AAW capability of the ships in my opinion.

AWACS capability

I asked whether we would now consider a proper AEW capability such as the E2 in view of reconfiguration of carrier(s) to CTOL operations.

The letter said that the Seakings would continue to 2016 and a project entitled "CROWSNEST" was looking at capability beyond that.

Presumably this means we will have no AEW capability from 2016 until the entry into service of the carrier(s) if we go for a fixed wing solution or we will have to have another toytown helicopter platform that can take over from the Seaking and since we would not develop such a platform for only 4 years of service it will then become the system used on the carrier(s)

MARS

I asked about the status of the MARS programme.

The response was that the MOD are in dialogue with bidders and that the original plan was up to six vessels but that the numbers would be reviewed in light of the SDR. The intention is for them to enter service from 2016 to replace the Leaf and Rover ships and probably the Fort ships as well.

Commitments

I asked what commitments would be dropped in view of the smaller number of hulls.

The reply was that commitments to the North and South Atlantic, Gulf and Indian Ocean along with counter piracy and narcotics would continue but other commitments would be reviewed.

Fleet mix

I asked whether we would consider larger numbers of cheaper OPV type hulls for second line operations (such as counter piracy and narcotics) rather than trying to do this with frigates but then leaving capability gaps on the frigates in order to get the required hull numbers (such as the omission of a CIWS from the Type 23 and not fitting towed sonars to a number of those ships).

The reply was that this was not favoured as the ships could not then be upgraded to full warfighting capability should that be needed and were "fixed to task". The Type 26 was referenced but nothing that hasn't already been discussed on here around the need for it to have modular capability.

Given our track record I think that probably means lots of fitted for but not with equipment that would not normally be carried in peacetime operations.

Personally I think this is disappointing as I would rather see a high/low fleet mix. We currently deploy vastly over equipped ships for some operations but leave capability gaps to maximise hull numbers which makes those ships vulnerable in warfighting. Whilst modular sounds great in theory thats's not much use if for example there was a blow up in North Korea or the Gulf and we have to sail the nearest warship to a port with substantial infrastructure facilities to install the weapons it would need for that scenario.

Hope that was of some use.
 

Hambo

New Member
The 7 RAF Tornado losses were far higher in proportion to US losses and were a direct result of employing tactics that had proved unsuccessful 20 years before in Vietnam. Flying low and fast rather than using stand off guided munitions. Which they eventually did by deploying Buccaneers when RAF losses started to become an embarrassment to the Coalition forces. This is probably also why RAF training losses on Tornados exceeded the Luftwaffe and Aeronautica Militare.

Yes other countries have equipment procurement disasters but the UK seems to have more than most and certainly more than it can now afford.

Much of this comes from excessive innovation, new systems that have no common development path with older systems, greatly increase the risk of issues. (T45, Astute etc)

I agree with the point weasel1962 is trying to make, not that Turkey has forces equal or better than the UK, but that it is getting better value for money out of it's budget, and this is not just manpower costs.

This situation will continue until there is an acceptance that something is wrong with the UK's armed forces and far from punching above its weight it is underperforming. Merely crossing figures and hoping money will be found in the future will not sort the problem.

This is not so shocking, there are plenty of times when Britain's armed forces have not performed and the recognition of these darker periods have often then led to some of our greatest successes. (1940-42 lead to 1943-45?)
You really are an obnoxious individual aren't you? Would you find anyone with an ounce of decency to brand the RAF Tornado loses an embarrassment? From one who soon cries about "personal attacks "and "abuse" by members of this forum, it is a bit offensive to the memory of those dead aircrew to say their efforts and sacrifice was an embarrassment.

One aircraft was shot down on a JP mission, the others lofting bombs at low level, but it wasnt just the RAF that went in low in the first phase, and it wasnt just the RAF that suffered losses and damage from AAA and SAMs at low level, the french Jaguars did, the USMC AV-8B, F15E's and A6's.

As usual your grasp of context and history leave a lot to be desired, "flying low and fast rather than using stand off guided munitions". Less than 10% of weapons dropped in GW1 were smart weapons, the vast majority of aircraft types and numbers dropped dumb bombs, those options didnt exist for the RAF in 1991, the numbers of targetting pods was small. Even the USA was limited in the numbers of platforms that could drop LGB's, the USAF had three types the F117/F111 and F15E and the majority of F15E ordnance was dumb due to the limited number of LANTIRN targeting pods, only one-quarter of the F-15Es deployed to the Persian Gulf had the
capability of autonomously delivering LGBs. (source FAS.org). If the US was limited in how many smart weapons it could deploy, how was the UK in the time period going to do any better?

I suppose your wisdom is greater than the RAF who spent decades figuring out how to strike at WARPAC airfields, hence why your application of hindsight is so clearly correct. In the 1970's and 1980's it was never an option for the NATO RAF by means of budget or technology to have moved away from low level strike, again your alternative history of how UK forces should have been structured has little to do with the contect or reality of the time. It was entirely expected that the RAF were given the tough task of low level airfield attack, a job that had to be done, by aircrew who knew they would take casualties. Applying hindsight now is unfair, all the pre war planning anticipated far higher air loses , if the computer simulations come out at 10% attrition to allied forces across the board, then why wouldnt the RAF train and practice at low level? Sharkey Ward writing various outlandish claims about the GR1 and crew is a disgrace, but frankly not a surprise that someone like you would repeat it, "embarrassment" ?!!!

Once the Iraqi air defence network was knocked out, it was also logical that the air war would change altitude, the deployment of buccaneer was needed not for any embarrassment but because the target list had changed to HAS, bridges and other hardened targets. You are suggesting the RAF somehow scurried away from a mission that they had failed at, they didnt, over 100 JP223's delivered, im not sure there are any accurate assements in the public domain of the actual damage caused by those raids.
 

1805

New Member
I wrote to the MOD asking for information regarding some elements of the SDR that were not apparent to me in the published document or the press releases and received a reply from Lt. Cdr Barton at the Equipment Capability Secretariat that I wanted to share.

Some stuff (such as which specific RFA's will be lost has since emerged) so I'll stick to stuff I hadn't heard about already.

I've noticed recently that one or two links or stories posted by folks have met with a response along the lines of 'I knew that months ago'. If you already knew the stuff here then that's great but I'm posting it for those of us who perhaps have an amateur interest rather than professional involvment in the defence field and who might not be so well informed so please consider those of us who don't already know everything about everything.

Type 45

I asked if there were plans to fit Harpoon and ASW torpedoes to the Type 45 since the reduction in escort numbers makes it vital that all escorts can operate independently against the full range of threats in high risk areas such as trhe Gulf.

The letter conformed that these systems will not be fitted and the ship will continue to rely on its helicopter to provide these capabilities.

I find this is particularly disappointing as that means the ships will have to continue to deploy with the less capable Lynx due to the Merlin being unable to carry Sea Skua ASM's.

I also asked when the Co-operative Engagement Capability would be fitted. I understand this was originally planned for 2013. The letter said this will now take place in 2018. A very disappointing failure to exploit the full AAW capability of the ships in my opinion.

AWACS capability

I asked whether we would now consider a proper AEW capability such as the E2 in view of reconfiguration of carrier(s) to CTOL operations.

The letter said that the Seakings would continue to 2016 and a project entitled "CROWSNEST" was looking at capability beyond that.

Presumably this means we will have no AEW capability from 2016 until the entry into service of the carrier(s) if we go for a fixed wing solution or we will have to have another toytown helicopter platform that can take over from the Seaking and since we would not develop such a platform for only 4 years of service it will then become the system used on the carrier(s)

MARS

I asked about the status of the MARS programme.

The response was that the MOD are in dialogue with bidders and that the original plan was up to six vessels but that the numbers would be reviewed in light of the SDR. The intention is for them to enter service from 2016 to replace the Leaf and Rover ships and probably the Fort ships as well.

Commitments

I asked what commitments would be dropped in view of the smaller number of hulls.

The reply was that commitments to the North and South Atlantic, Gulf and Indian Ocean along with counter piracy and narcotics would continue but other commitments would be reviewed.

Fleet mix

I asked whether we would consider larger numbers of cheaper OPV type hulls for second line operations (such as counter piracy and narcotics) rather than trying to do this with frigates but then leaving capability gaps on the frigates in order to get the required hull numbers (such as the omission of a CIWS from the Type 23 and not fitting towed sonars to a number of those ships).

The reply was that this was not favoured as the ships could not then be upgraded to full warfighting capability should that be needed and were "fixed to task". The Type 26 was referenced but nothing that hasn't already been discussed on here around the need for it to have modular capability.

Given our track record I think that probably means lots of fitted for but not with equipment that would not normally be carried in peacetime operations.

Personally I think this is disappointing as I would rather see a high/low fleet mix. We currently deploy vastly over equipped ships for some operations but leave capability gaps to maximise hull numbers which makes those ships vulnerable in warfighting. Whilst modular sounds great in theory thats's not much use if for example there was a blow up in North Korea or the Gulf and we have to sail the nearest warship to a port with substantial infrastructure facilities to install the weapons it would need for that scenario.

Hope that was of some use.
Thank you for going to the effort to find this information out and sharing it with us.
 

1805

New Member
You really are an obnoxious individual aren't you? Would you find anyone with an ounce of decency to brand the RAF Tornado loses an embarrassment? From one who soon cries about "personal attacks "and "abuse" by members of this forum, it is a bit offensive to the memory of those dead aircrew to say their efforts and sacrifice was an embarrassment.

One aircraft was shot down on a JP mission, the others lofting bombs at low level, but it wasnt just the RAF that went in low in the first phase, and it wasnt just the RAF that suffered losses and damage from AAA and SAMs at low level, the french Jaguars did, the USMC AV-8B, F15E's and A6's.

As usual your grasp of context and history leave a lot to be desired, "flying low and fast rather than using stand off guided munitions". Less than 10% of weapons dropped in GW1 were smart weapons, the vast majority of aircraft types and numbers dropped dumb bombs, those options didnt exist for the RAF in 1991, the numbers of targetting pods was small. Even the USA was limited in the numbers of platforms that could drop LGB's, the USAF had three types the F117/F111 and F15E and the majority of F15E ordnance was dumb due to the limited number of LANTIRN targeting pods, only one-quarter of the F-15Es deployed to the Persian Gulf had the
capability of autonomously delivering LGBs. (source FAS.org). If the US was limited in how many smart weapons it could deploy, how was the UK in the time period going to do any better?

I suppose your wisdom is greater than the RAF who spent decades figuring out how to strike at WARPAC airfields, hence why your application of hindsight is so clearly correct. In the 1970's and 1980's it was never an option for the NATO RAF by means of budget or technology to have moved away from low level strike, again your alternative history of how UK forces should have been structured has little to do with the contect or reality of the time. It was entirely expected that the RAF were given the tough task of low level airfield attack, a job that had to be done, by aircrew who knew they would take casualties. Applying hindsight now is unfair, all the pre war planning anticipated far higher air loses , if the computer simulations come out at 10% attrition to allied forces across the board, then why wouldnt the RAF train and practice at low level? Sharkey Ward writing various outlandish claims about the GR1 and crew is a disgrace, but frankly not a surprise that someone like you would repeat it, "embarrassment" ?!!!

Once the Iraqi air defence network was knocked out, it was also logical that the air war would change altitude, the deployment of buccaneer was needed not for any embarrassment but because the target list had changed to HAS, bridges and other hardened targets. You are suggesting the RAF somehow scurried away from a mission that they had failed at, they didnt, over 100 JP223's delivered, im not sure there are any accurate assements in the public domain of the actual damage caused by those raids.

Firstly if I was to say criticize a WW1 general for his tactics in a frontal assault sending brave men to their deaths I am not taking the memory of the brave men who died in vane; as usual you avoid logic and fact to emotionally attack a poster with an alternative view.

The rest of your post is the usual creative spin on the events so I will not past further comment.
 

Hambo

New Member
Firstly if I was to say criticize a WW1 general for his tactics in a frontal assault sending brave men to their deaths I am not taking the memory of the brave men who died in vane; as usual you avoid logic and fact to emotionally attack a poster with an alternative view.

The rest of your post is the usual creative spin on the events so I will not past further comment.
A simple question 1805, provide any direct quote from any member of the military involved in GW1 or evidence that any senior member of the coalition thought the RAF low level tornado missions became an embarrassment ? Explain why exactly you conclude that the RAFs performance became and embarrassment? Had you said something along the lines that the RAF command could have done better or the tactics were flawed because of a,b or c then fair enough but you didnt.
 

1805

New Member
A simple question 1805, provide any direct quote from any member of the military involved in GW1 or evidence that any senior member of the coalition thought the RAF low level tornado missions became an embarrassment ? Explain why exactly you conclude that the RAFs performance became and embarrassment? Had you said something along the lines that the RAF command could have done better or the tactics were flawed because of a,b or c then fair enough but you didnt.

I went much further than that, I said the RAF continued to pursue tactics of low level attack despite clear evidence from US losses in Vietnam that this was likely to result in high level causalities. This near obsession within the RAF leadership led to higher training losses compared to similar Tornado operators in the decade up to GW1. Actually the development of JP223 is probably one of the best pieces of evidence of the folly of this approach, flying level along a defended runway....charge of the light brigade or what (and thats not to decry the brave men of the light brigade)?

Although the RAF denied it was US pressure at the time (what more evidence do you need) there was a clear shift in tactics with the arrival of the Buccaneers which could target standoff munitions. And they haven’t returned to it since and did move to stand off solutions aftward?

I doubt had the airfields been left the Iraqi air force could have shot down 7 allied aircraft in the air.

However this is a RN threat so let’s get back on subject.
 
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