The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

swerve

Super Moderator
You're being pedantic. Falklands is 500km from the mainland. Thats factually correct. You applied a different measure albeit more accurate measure which was to airfields and its not inconsistent for me to agree. That doesn't shift Falklands further from the mainland.
No, I'm being precise. That the nearest points of the Falklands & Argentina are roughly 500km apart is true, but mentioning it in the context of air attacks from Argentina on MPA is misleading.

One of the dictionary definition of "several" is "more than one".
Also misleading. If I say 'several', do you think of 1.5 or 2? No, you think of , 6, 7 - something of that order of magnitude. Words matter. They have meaning over & above their dictionary definitions. They have associations, & choosing one word over another, even though they have overlapping definitions, can completely change the weight of a phrase or sentence in the minds of those who read or hear it. Politicians know that very well.

But even if I'm accurate, that argument is irrelevant. The fact is all the aircraft in the FAA could in 82 operate over the Falklands without air refuel and have still retain some measure of manourvreability rather than the in and out that you claimed esp against a target which is fixed and whose location is known. In 2010, it doesn't change that.
'Some measure' was so little that they only tried to fight air-air on one day, because fuel limits encountered then made them realise it was pointless. The Daggers & Mirages had only a few minutes in the target area, & the Skyhawks could only reach the targets with a bomb load with aerial refuelling.

I'm too lazy to check what's the max since I will have to tally all the days. I will merely post an example on 1 May, 1982, San Julian sent 16 A4s + 5 Daggers. Rio Gallegos sent 12 Mirages (1 shot down SE of stanley) + 12 A4s, Rio grande sent 4 Daggers (1 shot down SW of stanley) whilst Trelew sent 6 canberras (one of which was shot down north of stanley). That's 49 fast jets and 6 slow bombers at one time and the shoot down locations will give you an idea of where the aircraft vectors could end up being.

You can't engage such numbers with just 4 typhoons..
Firstly, such numbers are no longer possible. As already explained, that's a lot more than Argentina has operational fighters, & restoring that number to operational condition would be noticed.

Also, there was no single 55 aircraft raid. Check up the times of engagements. There were two separate encounters (no losses on either side) between Harriers & Mirages, one in the morning & one in the early afternoon, before the main effort in the late afternoon. Both times, the Mirages had to withdraw because of fuel limits. The Mirages approached in widely spaced pairs, which I suspect was because they hadn't wanted to waste any fuel forming up into a larger group.

When we look at the late afternoon fighting, we see the last shoot-down was 1 hr 35 mins after the first.

What you have represented as simultaneous raids by 55 aircraft were in fact sequential attacks by much smaller waves. The late afternoon maximum effort was in at least three waves over more than an hour and a half, & there had been two previous, completely separate, smaller attacks.

When you think about the mechanics of it, it's obvious why the attacks were in waves. Consider how long it would take for 16 Daggers to take off from San Julian & form up for a single attack, or for 12 or 16 A-4s to refuel. Also, think about the mechanics of refuelling 28 A-4s, out & back, on two separate vectors., with only two tankers - and getting them to co-ordinate over the target with four other flights, two of them taking off from the same bases, each of which had a single runway & limited dispersal. San Julian, for example, has 8 shelters with a single route to the runway, & no taxiway or anywhere else to wait for takeoff except the approach from the shelters. . . Rio Gallegos at least has a parallel taxiway & somewhere to park fighters while they're waiting to take off, but 24 in one go? Tricky, tricky.

The best you can get is a stream, or waves, & they picked the latter. Many turned back without engaging because they hit fuel limits before finding targets. That wouldn't happen if they were all converging on MPA, but that would also present a much easier target for the defenders than what happened on May 1st 1982, when the Argentinean aircraft were deliberately dispersed, because they were seeking targets across a lot of sea. That's much harder for short-range fighters to engage. Much longer-range Typhoons, able to use drop tanks, carrying far more missiles, & able to engage from much greater distances, wouldn't necessarily shoot down every attacking aircraft in a raid on MPA, but I think Argentina would run out of aircraft to attack with before MPA was put out of action.

What you should be proposing is raids on the ground based radars, simultaneously with a raid on MPA. That way, the defenders have to make choices.
 

Hambo

New Member
Are the three radar stations at Mount Alice, Byron Heights and Mount Kent still there?

Here is some Youtube footage of 1435 flight over Mount Kent. The radar horizon must be pretty impressive from that altitude and position. Must be a hard one to sneak up on.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_X6KNIlxWM"]YouTube - 1435 Flt at Mount Alice[/nomedia]
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Seems the RAN is considering leasing Largs Bay (as well as considering an outright purchase). This might buy the MoD's budgeteers a bit of breathing space, perhaps even allow us to take her back when the the financials are in better shape
I would assume buy rather than lease. It matches the RAN requirements very well, we are either going to buy that one or make pretty much the same ship. It is a permanent requirement we have a need for, but if leased, if you wanted it back I suppose Spain could build us another LHD or more realistically a Bay/Galacia class and we use a Bay until its in service with us. And its not like the UK and Australia wouldn't be able to pull resources together.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

As an alternative to swallowing an imagined alternate history of the Falklands air campaign, I would urge the use of a bit of logic.

A KC-130B generally carries 20+k lbs of fuel in 4 x 800+ gal tanks. Can 2 hercs refuel the entire 45+ Argentine A-4 fleet esp when it has to stay in the air esp whilst the entire fleet takes off in batches?

The reality as mentioned is that air refuel was used sparingly in the Falklands.

No point explaining the 1st may account. If one really has studied in detail the historical accounts of the air campaign, one would have read about simultaneous appearance of double digit aircraft incl over san carlos at one time. And at the same time read accounts of A-4s that bombed vessels without any air refuel. Even if one wanted to argue range, there are numerous sources of the combat radius of the A-4Bs and that's even before fuel tanks.

Of course if one would like to believe that the A-4ARs which can carry more fuel than the A-4Bs are not capable of bombing MPA without aerial refuel, despite the facts, then so be it.

Haven't even considered the endurance of the typhoons. I would guess that even the typhoons would need to land to refuel at some point in time. Otherwise, it will be a rather funny situation where the Brits ask the Argies to hold off their attacks whilst the typhoons do a tanker refuel and of course a gentleman's agreement not to attack air tankers pls.

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Separately, the runways are more important than the radar installations. Operation tempest trail showed that the UK could reinforce the Falklands within 18 hours with non-stop flying by Typhoons from the UK (with tankers). Whilst denying the runway might not result in the lost of the typhoon, it will most certainly force the typhoons flying enroute to either turn back or risk internment at neutral airfields like in Chile.

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Instead of repeating the same responses to the same tired questions, I would rather address some people's perception on the "god-like" capabilities attributed to the rapier/Jernas/Starstreak etc. Consider the range of each of the SAM systems and even more so as the missiles don't get fired at max range.

An aircraft can toss a Mk-82 4km. LGBs today can outrange the stated systems. Think about how difficult would it be to integrate LGBs into A-4s and Mirages, notwithstanding the 25+km ranged AS-25 already in inventory? I think some realism needs to be injected into the discussion.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Again, for those who are interested in Argentine armed forces orbat, I note that the Argentinian govt annually reports its inventory holdings in the UN register of conventional arms which can accessed on the UN website.

As to claims of how many aircraft are operational, the current view on the state of the Argentine air force is currently derived from a single source ie the political opposition.

In the past 1 year, a new head of air force as well as defense minister. Janes is reporting changes in air force budget allocations which previously focussed on personel funding rather than equipment. In 2008, the air force actually got a 54% budget boost from 2007 in spite of its economic issues.

What is clear is that the govt is trying to replace the mirages esp MIIIs (decision already made). Jordan offered the F.1 in mid last year and the M-2000 proposal was on the table. However, weapons acquisition are still limited by budget.

The A-4ARs are also participating in exercises eg Salitre II being the most recent as well as airfest 2010. The army elements did Valkirya. And US still provides the necessary support for A-4AR maintenance. Not difficult considering how much A-4 spares are out there.

LM also has an A-4 engine facility in Cordoba (Lockheed Martin Aircraft Argentina, S.A) that not only helps to service A-4s in Argentine service but has long term contracts servicing Brazilian A-4s with depot maintenance. The cooperation with Brazil was mooted a number of years back to improve A-4AR serviceability. Considering the ability of LM, the cost of A-4 serviceability, I would think it wouldn't be very difficult to keep those flying.

The govt naturally states that their aircraft are still flying. That includes Mirages which was stated by the AF secretary in April.

I would be careful to rely on political talk as fact.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
Again, for those who are interested in Argentine armed forces orbat, I note that the Argentinian govt annually reports its inventory holdings in the UN register of conventional arms which can accessed on the UN website.

As to claims of how many aircraft are operational, the current view on the state of the Argentine air force is currently derived from a single source ie the political opposition.

In the past 1 year, a new head of air force as well as defense minister. Janes is reporting changes in air force budget allocations which previously focussed on personel funding rather than equipment. In 2008, the air force actually got a 54% budget boost from 2007 in spite of its economic issues.

What is clear is that the govt is trying to replace the mirages esp MIIIs (decision already made). Jordan offered the F.1 in mid last year and the M-2000 proposal was on the table. However, weapons acquisition are still limited by budget.

The A-4ARs are also participating in exercises eg Salitre II being the most recent as well as airfest 2010. The army elements did Valkirya. And US still provides the necessary support for A-4AR maintenance. Not difficult considering how much A-4 spares are out there.

LM also has an A-4 engine facility in Cordoba (Lockheed Martin Aircraft Argentina, S.A) that not only helps to service A-4s in Argentine service but has long term contracts servicing Brazilian A-4s with depot maintenance. The cooperation with Brazil was mooted a number of years back to improve A-4AR serviceability. Considering the ability of LM, the cost of A-4 serviceability, I would think it wouldn't be very difficult to keep those flying.

The govt naturally states that their aircraft are still flying. That includes Mirages which was stated by the AF secretary in April.

I would be careful to rely on political talk as fact.
If the will is there the Argentines must strike sooner rather than later. Over the next few decades MP will benefit from upgrades, Rapier being replaced with fully networked CAMM/Starstreak for example. More T45's and Astutes coming on-line, A single T45 or Astute on South Atlantic station will provide a step-change in AeW and surface vessel surveillance capabilities. Typhoon tranche II/III will eventually arrive in theatre. Also post 2014 as the UK draws down in A-Stan there's no reason why the UK couldn't transfer a batch of Warthogs to the South Atlantic providing the garrison with an all terrain armoured vehicle ideal for the environment capable of mounting a varied array of infantry support weapons (Javelin, Starstreak, GMG, .50 etc). If it was my choice I would raise a local reserve Yeomanry unit who know the islands to crew and maintain the Warthogs ready and able to host each rotating resident infantry ++ company.

Also as the UK garrison withdraws from Germany and the UK moves more towards a light/medium expeditionary force (built around five deployable brigades), the Falklands Island represents one of the best live firing exercise areas still under UK control. We may even witness an increase in the number of units rotated out to conduct joint service live fire exercises (particularly as the C17 workload will be reduced post A-Stan).
 
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1805

New Member
Anyway the second point I originally raised was for me more interesting, that if the Argentinian's could take the Falklands could we retake them with out carrier aviation, and relying on T45

Expanding this further and not saying I agree with this line but for the sake of debate, would the RN be better cutting is losses with the CVF/F35/ and doing a deal (similar to replacing the T82 with more T42). Could we just replace the F35 with another 6 improved T45 . 12 fully equipped with plentiful numbers of land attack missiles? Maybe then getting a couple of JC1/Mistral type ships.
 

kev 99

Member
Cruise missiles are no replacement for aircraft, you can't win a war with LACMs alone, and they certainly can't do CAS so whenever you're troops go ashore they will be vulnerable, unless you fit nuclear warheads to you're cruise missiles which means there's no point in troops going ashore.
 

1805

New Member
Cruise missiles are no replacement for aircraft, you can't win a war with LACMs alone, and they certainly can't do CAS so whenever you're troops go ashore they will be vulnerable, unless you fit nuclear warheads to you're cruise missiles which means there's no point in troops going ashore.
I guess you could say that inline with UK defence stance that we would work with other countries carriers (USN/MN) or the RAF.

Additional will the range of SAM extend out to 100-150 miles. Although we would be limted to surface based radar coverage and ASM range will increase probably fast than SAMs?

Against a high tech threat aviation would be important, but for all the high tech threats we have access to allies or the RAF. The exception could be the Falklands but the threat is probably of a lower level?
 

kev 99

Member
Realistically what you're suggesting is the UK armed forces more or less become the 51st states armed forces, I don't want us to be tied to the US forever, and only France has a carrier worth capable of providing a decent airwing in anything like a serious war and obviously their carrier has it's maintenance and reliability issues.

I don't see the RAF as providing a credible substitute for an aircraft carrier, the only way it could reasonably be considered is if they got back into the strategic bomber game and that's a non-starter. Foreign basing is all very well but it doesn't provide the options that a carrier can. Afganistan is the only war zone the RN hasn't deployed an aircraft carrier to in the last 30 years.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Generally speaking, the people who play in here usually stay on track

I'd ask that you stay the course and not let personal frustrations carry the day,

I say that as someone experienced in loosing my cool every now and then and as someone who should've walked out of some discussions rather than engage and watch things go downhill
 

1805

New Member
Realistically what you're suggesting is the UK armed forces more or less become the 51st states armed forces, I don't want us to be tied to the US forever, and only France has a carrier worth capable of providing a decent airwing in anything like a serious war and obviously their carrier has it's maintenance and reliability issues.

I don't see the RAF as providing a credible substitute for an aircraft carrier, the only way it could reasonably be considered is if they got back into the strategic bomber game and that's a non-starter. Foreign basing is all very well but it doesn't provide the options that a carrier can. Afganistan is the only war zone the RN hasn't deployed an aircraft carrier to in the last 30 years.
I would probably agree, although the role of RN carriers has been more limted apart for the Falklands. In the 30 years before they had a much more active role and the RAF limited virtually to logistics.

I think if this did happen we would need to look seriosuly at extending cheap land attack options: 155mm/MRLS/HIMARS etc.
 
The GMLRS was a good buy.

The bad news is that the earlier SDSR cuts may not be enough.
UK may reopen defence review in funding crisis-FT - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Finance

What else can be cut?
For example scrapping the carrier force forever, the carriers will be built, yes but unfortunately without the white ensign, they will be actively marketed around the globe and finally if not sold they will be mothballed until some buyer is found even for a bargain price, the proof is that is not credible the plan to maintain 1 strike carrier of nearly 70000 tons with a dozen fighters on board, is ridiculous and the demonstration that the british politicians are ready to leave Britain without carriers forever, after all if the R.N. will have no strike capability during the next 10 years why not to cancel this capability forever, Richard Beedall wrote some years ago that tye R.N. was going to be a coastal force in the long term, unfortunately and looking at the present and future will not be so long term.
It,s clear that for british politicians defence is a secondary matter, any major country have suffered such a wild defence cuts in the last 30 years if things follow this way Britain will pass from a global military power to a secondary power overpassed by Italy or even Spain.
 

Hambo

New Member
Overlander, you were banging on for years that the carriers would not be built, they are being built, that's a fact so quite why anyone would be swayed by your current words of wisdom? If the various shades of uk govt see defence as secondary then it's strange that the uk has been continually involved in conflicts for the passed decade. Also strange when we spend more on defence than the euro average. Why is an airing of a dozen f35 ridiculous? It's what the RN has fielded for over 30 years and about as much as Italy or Spain can manage. Any chance to have a dig and you take it, even if you base it on conjecture or rumour.
 

Seaforth

New Member
Indeed, it would be the most potent force put to sea by th RN for 40 years and not far off of the routine amount embarked originally envisaged.
Depending on the mission of course, a peacetime air group like this looks very potent and very flexible (and achievable):
12 F35C
6 Apache
6 Merlin
6 Wildcat
3 Merlin or Sea King ASC
2 Chinook

Yes fewer fast jets than Ark Royal in the 70's, but the helicopters are much more capable and able to fill more roles than the RN helicopters of that era.

Also, some of the Buccaneers on the Royal were pretty much just there for air refueling. With the F35C's combat radius that's arguably not needed, so it's not fair to simply compare fast jet numbers.
 

Seaforth

New Member
Having said that, with the new cat and trap config, would there be space on deck to park a couple or even one Chinook? Interested in thoughts on that.

It would certainly be useful to support an LPD if there's one in the deployment.
 
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