A Ruskie vs US Scenario

Galrahn

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Does TACTOM have an anti-shipping mode? I remember hearing talk of adding such a capability, but I wasn't aware if anything had come of it.
There is a difference between what we know as Tomahawk missiles (older blocks) and a RGM/UGM -109E TACTOM.

The RGM/UGM - 109E has anti-shipping capability in its guided nature via datalink. It is like flying a drone into the target.

Speaking of decoys, another option would be to swap out some of those HARM shooters for F/A-18Cs carrying 6 or more ITALDs each. Two aircraft could saturate the Kirov's illuminators.
Yep, I totally forgot about that option. Saturation in strike is very difficult to overcome in naval warfare today, which is why many consider the AEGIS/CEC combination to coordinate multiple systems in an organized defense one of the most important technological improvements in naval warfare today, and why overcoming the 19 node limitation of CEC is such an important next step as new platforms like the LCS, E-2D, and SH AESA Block II come online CEC enabled. The long term potential is unified defense over a large theater, which brings realization to your ideas of distributed small LCS type ships with VLS you have discussed on other boards.
 

Galrahn

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So this gives a total of 4 systems excluding ECM and chaff etc and a total of 9 missiles being potentially engaged at any one time with a mix of guns and missiles, quite a formidible defence especially as harpoon is a subsonic missile.
The subsonic vs supersonic debate has been around awhile, but one thing to remember. Modern subsonic missiles are much more stealthy, making them much more difficult to detect and track than their supersonic counterparts. Even at low altitude, many supersonic missiles give off such an incredible heat signature that modern tracking systems see them beyond the horizon. It is why the Russians have been adapting their missiles to be subsonic at launch and supersonic in the terminal phase.

The trade is the subsonic missile can get closer before it is detected to lower the engagement window, while the supersonic missile moves faster which reduces the time of the engagement window. Some of the new missiles try to capitalize on both of these advantages.

Mixing and matching defense can create its own problems though. Chaff, for example, might deflect an incoming missile but can create its own set of problems in defense, which is why it is considered a defense of last resort.

There are instances where an escort would shoot off Chaff and another ships point defense system would engage the Chaff, and other instances where Chaff disrupted the ability of a major asset to track incoming targets. The point about attack vectors was that a point defense system pointing one direction isn’t able to address multiple incoming missiles at different vectors without turning to engage each one individually, which takes time, and would result in saturation getting through the point defenses, not to mention making it difficult for illuniators on different vectors.

ECM would be important, no doubt, but may not overcome ECM defenses on modern weapons systems, and can be ineffective against certain types of guidance systems (like laser guided weapons for example).

Btw your right im relatively young , and im learning as much as I can , but im no profesional :)
Ya I caught on to that, no problem though, its just things don’t work the way you are sometimes describing because your expectations are way too high on the capabilities of many of these systems. The limitations are rarely discussed, so in these theoretical discussions what happens is people have the expectation that these systems work together without restrictions, and work as designed always without being effected by the many variables that can influence effectiveness. The restrictions matter though, as they are the weaknesses that are exploited in combat.
 

XaNDeR

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Ya I caught on to that, no problem though, its just things don’t work the way you are sometimes describing because your expectations are way too high on the capabilities of many of these systems. The limitations are rarely discussed, so in these theoretical discussions what happens is people have the expectation that these systems work together without restrictions, and work as designed always without being effected by the many variables that can influence effectiveness. The restrictions matter though, as they are the weaknesses that are exploited in combat.
Im glad that i joined this forum caus i learned alot from these few posts
 

B.Smitty

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There is a difference between what we know as Tomahawk missiles (older blocks) and a RGM/UGM -109E TACTOM.

The RGM/UGM - 109E has anti-shipping capability in its guided nature via datalink. It is like flying a drone into the target.
Can TACTOM really be flown this way? I thought the satcom datalink was more message-based and not streaming video.

Does it have a SLAM-like aircraft uplink?

The guidance modes I've seen mentioned include a digital scene matching mode that might have problems with moving targets that change aspects like a ship. I don't really know. I've just never seen any mention of an anti-ship capability.
 

Galrahn

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To be honest, I'm not sure. I originally thought the TACTOM incorporated the Phase II plans of the Block IV, but it is unclear if the ability to hit moving targets is actually included in the spiral development. I am skeptical because this bit is included in the FY08 DOD budget.

Direct Attack Moving Target Capability

Based upon feedback from the Combatant Commanders in Iraq and Afghanistan - and subsequently approved as a capability gap documented by the Joint Chiefs of Staff - the Department of the Navy plans to improve our ability to attack and strike moving targets. Our Fiscal Year 2008 Budget request includes resources that leverage off of the highly successful, congressionally-supported procurement of dual-mode weapons. Our plan is to modify the existing inventory of single-mode direct attack weapons to make them dual-mode weapons with enhanced Direct Attack Moving Target Capabilities for delivery in Fiscal Year 2009. This strategy provides the needed warfighting capability while also providing stability to the industrial base and fostering competition. Our Fiscal Year 2008 Budget request is for $29.1M to modify 200 weapons to a dual mode, moving target capability.
That gives the impression the capability doesn't currently exist in the Tomahawk, or wasn't incorporated into the Tomahawk, although it doesn't list the Tomahawk by name. I know that Raytheon has developed the capability for previous versions of the Tomahawk, specifically the never procured 109Es, which I thought was incorporated into the TACTOM, but may not have been.

Either way, it looks like it will be by FY09.
 

Salty Dog

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Looks like this thread has been cold for some time.

As with most US (CVBG) vs. Russia scenarios, the E-2 certainly makes all the difference.

Russian SS-N-19s have great range, however targeting is the main challenge.

I have no doubt the Aegis system gives the USN a defensive AAW edge. The USN has also has a huge ASW edge, especially with the passive towed arrays that will be very useful in finding the roving SSN/SSGNs.

As already mentioned EW will take an important role in saturating the Russian air defenses, especially using the highly capable EA-6 and EA-18G.

This all reminds me that the former Soviet Navy was not at the forefront in cutting edge technology with their naval combat systems. To make up for that gap they resorted to filling their warships with overwhelming firepower with large quantities of very long range anti-ship supersonic missiles as well as multiple redundancy for radars, missile launchers, and guns.
 

Chrom

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Looks like this thread has been cold for some time.

As with most US (CVBG) vs. Russia scenarios, the E-2 certainly makes all the difference.

Russian SS-N-19s have great range, however targeting is the main challenge.

I have no doubt the Aegis system gives the USN a defensive AAW edge. The USN has also has a huge ASW edge, especially with the passive towed arrays that will be very useful in finding the roving SSN/SSGNs.

As already mentioned EW will take an important role in saturating the Russian air defenses, especially using the highly capable EA-6 and EA-18G.

This all reminds me that the former Soviet Navy was not at the forefront in cutting edge technology with their naval combat systems. To make up for that gap they resorted to filling their warships with overwhelming firepower with large quantities of very long range anti-ship supersonic missiles as well as multiple redundancy for radars, missile launchers, and guns.
At least in USSR case, you hugely underestimate USSR Navy targeting & aquision capabilities, especially compared to USN. Soviets had own version of battle management system comparable to AEGIS.

And AshM's targeting wouldnt be as much problem as soviets had a number of targeting platform - radar satellites which could be launched in greater numbers when needed, Tu-95 and Tu-142 EW & surveillance platforms, etc.

Ofc, in the last 25 years USA reached whole new level in target aquision, AAW and strike capabilities - while USSR fleet shrinked to much smaller Russian fleet, with almost same technical level as 20 yeas ago. So, now, Russian fleet is not capable to fight against USN on its own, without strong, overhelming support of land-based naval aviation and coastal complexes / SSK / etc.

Still, Russian navy is probably capable to face any other navy with good chances.
 

rickusn

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"At least in USSR case, you hugely underestimate USSR Navy targeting & aquision capabilities, especially compared to USN."

Horse-manure I was out there head to head.

"Soviets had own version of battle management system comparable to AEGIS. "

Really I missed that one or have forgotten.

Please fill us in.
 

Jon K

New Member
Still, Russian navy is probably capable to face any other navy with good chances.
Well, thinking about Russian neighbours perhaps NK navy and navies of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, even if they combined forces. Against Polish or Finnish navies Russian Navy would eventually win. Think realistically, Russian navy has been making comeback almost as long as the Beach Boys. Without doubt a strong smaller navy, such as the Dutch Navy could fight and win Russian Navy except perhaps in a scenario in which Dutch Navy would try to make an amphibious assault on St.Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Kola Peninsula.
 

nevidimka

New Member
Well, thinking about Russian neighbours perhaps NK navy and navies of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, even if they combined forces. Against Polish or Finnish navies Russian Navy would eventually win. Think realistically, Russian navy has been making comeback almost as long as the Beach Boys. Without doubt a strong smaller navy, such as the Dutch Navy could fight and win Russian Navy except perhaps in a scenario in which Dutch Navy would try to make an amphibious assault on St.Petersburg, Kaliningrad or Kola Peninsula.
You are forgetting the submarines that russia operates.
 

Jon K

New Member
You are forgetting the submarines that russia operates.
Yes, but the question is how many submarines does Russia operate? Russian Navy effort is concentrated upon operating SSBN's. If you check from best possible public source available http://www.warfare.ru (if better is available please let me know!) one can see that on list of "Active" submarines for many the last "sighting" is years old.

The submarines were hard to detect during last phase of the Cold War, or 20 years ago, but after that a whole generation of new Western warships with better sensors has arrived.

Moreover, their softwares have been constantly updated and what is most important, with tight operational tempo the training has been kept at good level.

Russia lost a great opportunity to get rid of unsupportable forces during early 1990's, possibly fearing unsatisfied officers, but what is really puzzling is why Putin has not been doing any fat skimming...
 

Chrom

New Member
"At least in USSR case, you hugely underestimate USSR Navy targeting & aquision capabilities, especially compared to USN."

Horse-manure I was out there head to head.
Do you have something more substantial to answer?

"Soviets had own version of battle management system comparable to AEGIS. "

Really I missed that one or have forgotten.

Please fill us in.
Particularly pr.1164 had very sophisticated BM & SAM system. Generally, all big USSR missile cruisers & aircraft cruisers had very powerful radars, SAM and BM network capable of communicating with each other and smaller destroyers.

P.S> BTW, one of the best articles on pr.1164 i've seen - http://warfare.ru/?catid=268&linkid=1740
There are some loose details about some targeting, AAW, AAA etc capabilities, with some historical analysis, compromises , etc. While i dont agree with some points in the article - but as i said, it is one the best.
 
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Salty Dog

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Do you have something more substantial to answer?



Particularly pr.1164 had very sophisticated BM & SAM system. Generally, all big USSR missile cruisers & aircraft cruisers had very powerful radars, SAM and BM network capable of communicating with each other and smaller destroyers.

P.S> BTW, one of the best articles on pr.1164 i've seen - http://warfare.ru/?catid=268&linkid=1740
There are some loose details about some targeting, AAW, AAA etc capabilities, with some historical analysis, compromises , etc. While i dont agree with some points in the article - but as i said, it is one the best.
I have tremendous respect for the massive offensive and defensive capabilities of the Kirov and Slava class CG, however, the "Aegis battle mangement system" as mentioned by RickUSN is an intergrated C3I system which ties together AEGIS and Link capable platforms.

I do not recall the Soviet Navy having a comparable C3I linked sytem (although they do have a number of weapons control datalinks).

Form the (Slava) article:

"Since the cruiser personified in itself the quintessence of Russian service technical progress of beginning 1980’s, its radio communications armament was represented, finally, by the complexes of radio communication “Typhoon -2” and “Tsunami -VM” (space radio communication), and not “by the scattering” of different radio stations, as before. The control of the combat subsystems of the ship "headed” the combat information-control system (CICS) of the third generation “Lesorub -1164”, developed by NPO “Mars”. CICS was created on the new element base, with the increased automation and the speed, and consequently - with the increased validity and the effectiveness of the taken solutions. However, in this CICS they did not reach the complexity from the automation of control in the composition of tactical group, so it remained the need for the presence one more - flag – CICS, but it appeared later and not on a cruiser."
 

Chrom

New Member
I have tremendous respect for the massive offensive and defensive capabilities of the Kirov and Slava class CG, however, the "Aegis battle mangement system" as mentioned by RickUSN is an intergrated C3I system which ties together AEGIS and Link capable platforms.

I do not recall the Soviet Navy having a comparable C3I linked sytem (although they do have a number of weapons control datalinks).

Form the (Slava) article:

"Since the cruiser personified in itself the quintessence of Russian service technical progress of beginning 1980’s, its radio communications armament was represented, finally, by the complexes of radio communication “Typhoon -2” and “Tsunami -VM” (space radio communication), and not “by the scattering” of different radio stations, as before. The control of the combat subsystems of the ship "headed” the combat information-control system (CICS) of the third generation “Lesorub -1164”, developed by NPO “Mars”. CICS was created on the new element base, with the increased automation and the speed, and consequently - with the increased validity and the effectiveness of the taken solutions. However, in this CICS they did not reach the complexity from the automation of control in the composition of tactical group, so it remained the need for the presence one more - flag – CICS, but it appeared later and not on a cruiser."
See? There is, obviously, no need to make EVERY cruiser capable of C3I CONTROLLING other cruisers. It will be enouth in any battle group to have 1 C3I control ship, all other ships should just be just datalinked to each others.

Even then, cruisers BM systems were upgraded later.

BTW, it is debatable how far "automation" was reached in US CVBG/Aegis back in 80x. I stress, auto decision system, not just datalinks
 

Salty Dog

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See? There is, obviously, no need to make EVERY cruiser capable of C3I CONTROLLING other cruisers. It will be enouth in any battle group to have 1 C3I control ship, all other ships should just be just datalinked to each others.

Even then, cruisers BM systems were upgraded later.

BTW, it is debatable how far "automation" was reached in US CVBG/Aegis back in 80x. I stress, auto decision system, not just datalinks
By your statment "There is, obviously, no need to make EVERY cruiser capable of C3I CONTROLLING other cruisers. It will be enouth in any battle group to have 1 C3I control ship" it does not imply any redundancy. I still would like to know what the Russian C3I data link is. Is it comparable to Link 11/16? Or is is just voice? Also, what is the fallback if the sole C3I capable control ship is OOC?

My point is (and I believe RickUSN) that in the USN, all Aegis equiped ships (CG/DDG) are equally capable of assuming the C3I control ship in a link environment, and more specifically the AAWC.
 

Chrom

New Member
By your statment "There is, obviously, no need to make EVERY cruiser capable of C3I CONTROLLING other cruisers. It will be enouth in any battle group to have 1 C3I control ship" it does not imply any redundancy. I still would like to know what the Russian C3I data link is. Is it comparable to Link 11/16? Or is is just voice? Also, what is the fallback if the sole C3I capable control ship is OOC?

My point is (and I believe RickUSN) that in the USN, all Aegis equiped ships (CG/DDG) are equally capable of assuming the C3I control ship in a link environment, and more specifically the AAWC.

Datalink itself is comparable - maybe slightly better, may be somewhat worse. Although exact data is classified, we can compare other, fairly well known examples of russian datalink technology of 80x timeframe. See f.e. example Mig-31, Su-27/Mig-29 datalinks, AD defence network datalinks (S-75/125/200/300, down to even SA-18 terminals datalink).

As i said, later BM system was modified (along with upgrades to main radar ) . Also, aircraft cruisers like Kuznecov received fully developed C3I system.
 

exported_kiwi

New Member
What if the F/A 18s are launched, with a mix of HARM and Harpoon. The Russians can't target anything without radiating and 1st thing'd be to jam them with your EA-6's, fire off your HARMs and then launch your Harpoons. Take out the eyes and what happens? If you can see it, you can shoot at it and if you can shoot at it, you can kill it.
The SSNs can be deployed in a screen say, at the maximum distance from each other, where their sonars can hear and then they'd be mutually supporting. Maybe you can have 2 SSNs faurther away and 2 in closer to provide a layered passive defence while 1 SSN stays in close company with the CVN to provide a Phalanx type last ditch defence.
I don't know if this'd play out in reality but it's always an option. The OHPs can be your sacrificial lambs if you like, way out forward and hunting the subs, maybe with a Burke not too far away to provide EW with AEGIS.
 

Salty Dog

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Datalink itself is comparable - maybe slightly better, may be somewhat worse. Although exact data is classified, we can compare other, fairly well known examples of russian datalink technology of 80x timeframe. See f.e. example Mig-31, Su-27/Mig-29 datalinks, AD defence network datalinks (S-75/125/200/300, down to even SA-18 terminals datalink).

As i said, later BM system was modified (along with upgrades to main radar ) . Also, aircraft cruisers like Kuznecov received fully developed C3I system.
As I mentioned earlier, you are describing weapons control links and not a C3I datalink where CWC can direct AAWC, ASWC, ASUWC, EWC, etc.
 

Chrom

New Member
As I mentioned earlier, you are describing weapons control links and not a C3I datalink where CWC can direct AAWC, ASWC, ASUWC, EWC, etc.
Nope. All of described things are NOT WEAPON CONTROL datalinks. Mig-31/Mig-29/Su-27 of 80x timeframe possesed two-way datalinks to each other and ground CGI control. SAM's systems had two-way datalink which transmit information from local S-xx post to command post, processed, and then AUTOMATICALLY distrubute targets for each S-xx battery, Tor/Tunguska, even down to SA-18 mobile terminal. Usually later series of S-200/300 had such control post, capable of controlling regiment of earler S-200/S-125/S-75 SAM's, alongside with other S-200/S-300 in the area.

Automatic datalink system even included SAM's and fighters in one network.
 

Salty Dog

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Nope. All of described things are NOT WEAPON CONTROL datalinks. Mig-31/Mig-29/Su-27 of 80x timeframe possesed two-way datalinks to each other and ground CGI control. SAM's systems had two-way datalink which transmit information from local S-xx post to command post, processed, and then AUTOMATICALLY distrubute targets for each S-xx battery, Tor/Tunguska, even down to SA-18 mobile terminal. Usually later series of S-200/300 had such control post, capable of controlling regiment of earler S-200/S-125/S-75 SAM's, alongside with other S-200/S-300 in the area.

Automatic datalink system even included SAM's and fighters in one network.
Sorry mate. Your description of the links are system to system weapons control, CGI to aircraft, SAM system terminals and not a complete C3I datalink. How are AAW, ASUW, ASW and EW functions integrated and controlled? Are these systems you describe on any warships? They look like land systems to me.
 
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