A Ruskie vs US Scenario

[XaNDeR]

Ok here it is , its a scenario battle and you get too choose the tactics too succesfully complete the mission.
You have 2 scenarios in both which you must choose the correct tactics to succesfully complete the objective


First of all , both Fleets start 1000km from each other

Scenario 1 Russian side
Your fleet.
1 kirov
2 slavas
3 sovs
3 udaloys
1 kara class
3 oskars
2 akulas

Mission objective too destroy the US nimitz class aircraft carrier protected by other US ships : 4 hazard perrys , 4 alreigh burkes, 3 ticonderogas and 5 LA SSN


Scenario 2 US side
Your fleet
1 nimitz class
4 hazard perrys
4 alreigh burkes
3 ticonderogas
5 LA SSN


Mission objective too protect the carrier and destroy any possible russian vessel trying to destroy the carrier.

Thats it , good luck admiral

 

[Grand Danois]

First of all , both Fleets start 2km from each other

At a distance of 2 km of from each other?

I'd sail the Nimitz through the Kirov and proclaim victory.

 

[AegisFC]

A couple of questions.

Are these nuetered OHP's? Flight I or IIA Burkes? Are these VLS or twin arm bandit armed Tico's?
Was everyones radar, sonar, IR, and night vision all broken at the same time to end up at 2km?

 

[XaNDeR]

Yes
Flight IIA
lets say VLS

sorry writing mistake , i meant 1000km , sorry lol

This is gonna be interesting , can't wait too see other people's tactics ^^ glad that i thought about this scenario

 

[AegisFC]

1,000 km is still quite a bit but oh well...

For the US I'd of course have the carrier in the center with my outer ring composed of 4 of the SSN's and 4 of the Burkes and their helo's. the inner ring would have 2 of the Tico's and the 4 OHP's (nuetered OHP's are almost useless in a full scale battle so they will be providing limited ASW with the ship and helo mounted sonars, also they have Nulka so that will help distract any missiles that leaked through the Burkes). In the center would be the carrier, the remaining Tico to act as close guard and plane guard behind the carrier, the last SSN would also stick close to the carrier.

Considering the Carrier has E-2's the Russians are going to have a hard time getting close without being detected first, same thing if I have a full ASW screen up (16 Sea Hawks just with the Burkes and OHPs). I think at first I'd be under EMCON and quite ship except for a couple of the E-2's and remain at EMCON until either I pick up some Russian radar signals or the E-2's pick something up, then I'd fire only the SPY's that are closest to the Russians (link will keep the rest of the fleet informed, do I have CEC?) and light off additonal radars as needed (I want to try to conceal exactly what my force is made of).
On my carrier I'd have a strike package ready to go and have all the planes ready to launch as quick as possible. Once the Russians are in range launch all available Super Bugs armed with anti-ship missiles supported by EA-6's.
The escorts will launch all their harpoons (56 harpoons coming from 3 different directions since you can program waypoints into the Harpoons).
When the Russians attack basically I'd put Aegis in full auto and let the computers do all the fighting, I'd use on ship EW, flares, chaff, Nulka and Phalanx to my fullest advantage and the Carrier will pick up speed and head away from the fight as fast as possible with the other Tico in tow (if it can keep up).
Against the subs the only thing I can do is play defensively and rely on the SSN's and the OHP's since the Burkes may be a bit busy during the missile fight.

 

[XaNDeR]

1,000 km is still quite a bit but oh well...

For the US I'd of course have the carrier in the center with my outer ring composed of 4 of the SSN's and 4 of the Burkes and their helo's. the inner ring would have 2 of the Tico's and the 4 OHP's (nuetered OHP's are almost useless in a full scale battle so they will be providing limited ASW with the ship and helo mounted sonars, also they have Nulka so that will help distract any missiles that leaked through the Burkes). In the center would be the carrier, the remaining Tico to act as close guard and plane guard behind the carrier, the last SSN would also stick close to the carrier.

Considering the Carrier has E-2's the Russians are going to have a hard time getting close without being detected first, same thing if I have a full ASW screen up (16 Sea Hawks just with the Burkes and OHPs). I think at first I'd be under EMCON and quite ship except for a couple of the E-2's and remain at EMCON until either I pick up some Russian radar signals or the E-2's pick something up, then I'd fire only the SPY's that are closest to the Russians (link will keep the rest of the fleet informed, do I have CEC?) and light off additonal radars as needed (I want to try to conceal exactly what my force is made of).
On my carrier I'd have a strike package ready to go and have all the planes ready to launch as quick as possible. Once the Russians are in range launch all available Super Bugs armed with anti-ship missiles supported by EA-6's.
The escorts will launch all their harpoons (56 harpoons coming from 3 different directions since you can program waypoints into the Harpoons).
When the Russians attack basically I'd put Aegis in full auto and let the computers do all the fighting, I'd use on ship EW, flares, chaff, Nulka and Phalanx to my fullest advantage and the Carrier will pick up speed and head away from the fight as fast as possible with the other Tico in tow (if it can keep up).
Against the subs the only thing I can do is play defensively and rely on the SSN's and the OHP's since the Burkes may be a bit busy during the missile fight.

Pretty good , but thats not gonna do it im afraid
You launched all available Super Hornets on the russian fleet , there is no way that they could get through powerfull defenses of kirov, especially with harpoons. kirov has 192 S-300F missles, medium range AA missles and close range air defences, the same goes to slava and kara, I don't think that hornets have the capability to penatrate such defence, so the cbg wouldn't defeat the Russian group with the air attacks, becouse Russian cruisers are very well protected and harpoon isn't the best weapon to attack Russian ships. I really don't think that 1 CBG can destroy kirov with only air attacks. Kirov's air defence is too strong. So Russian navy( especially kirov) is capable to deflect the air attack of the US navy even without the help of naval
aviation.

The second thing is that your carrier is stationed at the centre , protected by all your fleet that are very close by
Thats a mistake imho
Russians have longer range torpedos than US , so they would probably fire first before US , so in your case when the Carrier is stationed still , with all your subs very close by , Oscar can easily get withing 600km of CBG undetected fire it's 24 shipwreck missles and dissapear into the ocean
and the Carrier is destroyed.

And don't even try saying that you could detect the oscar , your Los Angeles are close to the carrier not patroling even near the 600km mark.

Im going sleep now , hope you write something till tomorow , very interesting !

 

[AegisFC]

You launched all available Super Hornets on the russian fleet , there is no way that they could get through powerfull defenses of kirov,

Who said I was aiming for the Kirov? You said to destroy as many Russian ships as possible while defending the Carrier and no matter how bad ass the Kirov is it is still only one ship and the 56 harpoons I mentioned was only from my Tico's and Burkes, the Super Bugs have their own armament (don't remember what off the top of my head and my internet is too slow right now for me to bother looking it up), plus the EA-6 is a formadable EW platform that will make life miserable for the Russian radar operators and will probably render a lot of the Russian defenses useless.
Add to that, how often do the Russians actually go to sea? How often do they train?

so the cbg wouldn't defeat the Russian group with the air attacks, becouse Russian cruisers are very well protected and harpoon isn't the best weapon to attack Russian ships.

If it isn't an effective weapon then why does the USN and a lot of other countries still use it?

I really don't think that 1 CBG can destroy kirov with only air attacks. Kirov's air defence is too strong. So Russian navy( especially kirov) is capable to deflect the air attack of the US navy even without the help of naval
aviation.

I never said only air attack the escorts have missiles as well, but I have no intention of letting my surface units get close enough to start lobbing SM-2's in surface mode and start dueling it out with 5 inch cannon and my subs are gonna protect the carrier and not go hunting on their own (primary mission is protect the CVN after all).

The second thing is that your carrier is stationed at the centre , protected by all your fleet that are very close by
Thats a mistake imho

A modern battle group is really spread out, the only ship that will be close by the carrier is the close guard Tico, everyone else will be at least 15 if not 50 or more miles away. Besides the carrier won't be at the exact center, it will be doing big lazy circles around the center keeping as much wind over her deck as possible for flight ops.

Russians have longer range torpedos than US , so they would probably fire first before US , so in your case when the Carrier is stationed still , with all your subs very close by , Oscar can easily get withing 600km of CBG undetected fire it's 24 shipwreck missles and dissapear into the ocean
and the Carrier is destroyed.

None of the US ships would be close together and when the missiles appear on radar (and it will cross the horizon of at least one of the escorts) Aegis will engage and get most if not all of them, the rest can be taken care of with EW, chaff, Nulka, and point defenses if it comes to that.
A modern CBG is harder to crack than you think, and that sub won't slip away undetected either, it won't be hard to draw a bearing on where it was fired and use that area as a starting point for a search using ASW helo's.

And don't even try saying that you could detect the oscar , your Los Angeles are close to the carrier not patroling even near the 600km mark.

Actually I said 4 of my 5 SSN's are in the outer ring, of defenses not near the carrier, I have one in in the general area of the carrier but not next to it at all times.
Speaking of which, how is your Oscar going to get a firing solution on a carrier 600km away? Chances are you are going to have a bearing and maybe a nominal range and chances are your missiles are going to go after the first thing they see, which will be the escorts.

I wouldn't be suprised if I'm wrong on a couple things but I suspect you are as well, and I don't want to get in a big arguement over this (I don't mind a civillized discussion though!).

 

[kinggodzilla87]

this is getting good

 

[kato]

Russian side

Step 1: Akulas let loose with 24 Kh-55.
Step 2: Akulas move to within 100 km of target, Oskars a bit farther out, close in rest of fleet to 500 km
Step 4: Start volley of 92 Granit + 32 Bazalt + 10 or so Vodopad.
Step 5: Oskars and Akulas close to 40 km, Sovremennys and Udaloys close down to 100 km minimum at full speed, rest of fleet behind them providing SAM cover
Step 6: Let loose with Moskit and torpedoes, then get into 130mm gun range, if you really must.

Ignore anything but the carrier. Ignore any losses. Just keep trying to hit it till it sinks or burns.

A CBG with 11 escorts and 5 subs is excessive anyway btw, even for Cold War times. 7-8 escorts plus 2 subs, maybe, with a bit of a stretch. But not that much.

 

[Totoro]

THis would be much more intersting if russophiles on this forum took the US side and americans and anglophiles "commanded" the russian fleet.

 

[XaNDeR]

Who said I was aiming for the Kirov? You said to destroy as many Russian ships as possible while defending the Carrier and no matter how bad ass the Kirov is it is still only one ship and the 56 harpoons I mentioned was only from my Tico's and Burkes, the Super Bugs have their own armament (don't remember what off the top of my head and my internet is too slow right now for me to bother looking it up), plus the EA-6 is a formadable EW platform that will make life miserable for the Russian radar operators and will probably render a lot of the Russian defenses useless.
Add to that, how often do the Russians actually go to sea? How often do they train?
If it isn't an effective weapon then why does the USN and a lot of other countries still use it?

I did not say it is not a effective weapon , yet it is a effective weapon with a range of 100-300km the most , the fleets are away about 1000km , how do you expect to launch ur harpoons now?

I never said only air attack the escorts have missiles as well, but I have no intention of letting my surface units get close enough to start lobbing SM-2's in surface mode and start dueling it out with 5 inch cannon and my subs are gonna protect the carrier and not go hunting on their own (primary mission is protect the CVN after all).
A modern battle group is really spread out, the only ship that will be close by the carrier is the close guard Tico, everyone else will be at least 15 if not 50 or more miles away. Besides the carrier won't be at the exact center, it will be doing big lazy circles around the center keeping as much wind over her deck as possible for flight ops.

Fair enough !

None of the US ships would be close together and when the missiles appear on radar (and it will cross the horizon of at least one of the escorts) Aegis will engage and get most if not all of them, the rest can be taken care of with EW, chaff, Nulka, and point defenses if it comes to that.
A modern CBG is harder to crack than you think, and that sub won't slip away undetected either, it won't be hard to draw a bearing on where it was fired and use that area as a starting point for a search using ASW helo's.
Actually I said 4 of my 5 SSN's are in the outer ring, of defenses not near the carrier, I have one in in the general area of the carrier but not next to it at all times.

I am very doubtfull that such a manouver would work as granit would be fired in saturation salvos!
The russians can launch missiles outside the horizon of the nearest escort too if they are smart.

Speaking of which, how is your Oscar going to get a firing solution on a carrier 600km away? Chances are you are going to have a bearing and maybe a nominal range and chances are your missiles are going to go after the first thing they see, which will be the escorts.

Sattelite, AEW, over the horizon radar. As the missiles have their own active radar they only need to be fired along the coarse of the carrier to pick them up and I believe most can recieve mid coarse updates from the launch vessel.

I wouldn't be suprised if I'm wrong on a couple things but I suspect you are as well, and I don't want to get in a big arguement over this (I don't mind a civillized discussion though!).

Fair enough

 

[XaNDeR]

Step 1: Akulas let loose with 24 Kh-55.
Step 2: Akulas move to within 100 km of target, Oskars a bit farther out, close in rest of fleet to 500 km
Step 4: Start volley of 92 Granit + 32 Bazalt + 10 or so Vodopad.
Step 5: Oskars and Akulas close to 40 km, Sovremennys and Udaloys close down to 100 km minimum at full speed, rest of fleet behind them providing SAM cover
Step 6: Let loose with Moskit and torpedoes, then get into 130mm gun range, if you really must.

Ignore anything but the carrier. Ignore any losses. Just keep trying to hit it till it sinks or burns.

A CBG with 11 escorts and 5 subs is excessive anyway btw, even for Cold War times. 7-8 escorts plus 2 subs, maybe, with a bit of a stretch. But not that much.

That would work .
If the carrier was standing in her position
But what if it moved away with 30 knots , then the akulas and oscars would need to follow , and its little chance that they would stay undetected , also the Los Angeles has a nice sonar , they could set a trap , akulas and oscars follow cbg and los angeles are waiting..

 

[Galrahn]

THis would be much more intersting if russophiles on this forum took the US side and americans and anglophiles "commanded" the russian fleet.

I would play the Russians if the scenario was well thought out, but this is really one of those scenarios that doesn't hold a bit of realistic thought to it. The scenario is either ignoring, or the scenario presenter is completely ignorant of, Russian Naval tactics and Russian Naval structure. There is no scenario I can imagine where a Russian task force consisting of the ships listed would ever engage a US Carrier battlegroup in 1000 kms of open ocean, that simply isn't anywhere in Russian Naval doctrine in the modern era, or the cold war era.

Problems I see here include that Russian naval doctrine puts a much heavier reliance on land based aircraft and submarines that this scenario accounts for. During the cold war for example, there were 2.7 submarines for every 1 submarine the US had, and while it is true many of those submarines were older, they were not easily detected outside the “G-I-UK Gap” and stopping the Russian submarine force north of the gap would be an enormous task, evident by the enormous focus Europe had in the cold war on ASW.

Additionally, during the cold war a Kirov battlegroup would almost never operate outside the fighter cover of land based figthers, with the exception of perhaps taking Iceland in the cold war in an amphibious escort role. Even then, Russian naval strategy called for massive numbers of badgers, blinders, and backfires to conduct raids against enemy carrier groups, and in that situation the US wouldn't operate a single carrier alone.

Because the scenario provided includes DDG-51s, Flight IIAs even, it implies modern warfare, which makes this scenario even more unrealistic than it would be in the cold war. What scenario can possibly be imagined where that Russian surface force would intentionally attempt to engage without air cover and without additional submarines a US carrier battlegroup with 11 escorts?

This scenario is a strange mix of the British Navy vs the Bismark and the Battle of Leyte Gulf where the US escort carriers engaged a Japanese surface force. The difference though is that the Bismark tried to avoid a direct confrontation with the British Fleet, and the Japanese Navy only engaged when they believed the US carriers were nowhere to be found, and retreated when they believed they were under attack by those carriers. In other words, there is no historical scenario applicable to this proposed scenario, where the Russian surface force would go after the US carrier, because in reality the Russians would disengage that fight before it started.

 

[XaNDeR]

I would play the Russians if the scenario was well thought out, but this is really one of those scenarios that doesn't hold a bit of realistic thought to it. The scenario is either ignoring, or the scenario presenter is completely ignorant of, Russian Naval tactics and Russian Naval structure. There is no scenario I can imagine where a Russian task force consisting of the ships listed would ever engage a US Carrier battlegroup in 1000 kms of open ocean, that simply isn't anywhere in Russian Naval doctrine in the modern era, or the cold war era.

Problems I see here include that Russian naval doctrine puts a much heavier reliance on land based aircraft and submarines that this scenario accounts for. During the cold war for example, there were 2.7 submarines for every 1 submarine the US had, and while it is true many of those submarines were older, they were not easily detected outside the “G-I-UK Gap” and stopping the Russian submarine force north of the gap would be an enormous task, evident by the enormous focus Europe had in the cold war on ASW.

Additionally, during the cold war a Kirov battlegroup would almost never operate outside the fighter cover of land based figthers, with the exception of perhaps taking Iceland in the cold war in an amphibious escort role. Even then, Russian naval strategy called for massive numbers of badgers, blinders, and backfires to conduct raids against enemy carrier groups, and in that situation the US wouldn't operate a single carrier alone.

Because the scenario provided includes DDG-51s, Flight IIAs even, it implies modern warfare, which makes this scenario even more unrealistic than it would be in the cold war. What scenario can possibly be imagined where that Russian surface force would intentionally attempt to engage without air cover and without additional submarines a US carrier battlegroup with 11 escorts?

This scenario is a strange mix of the British Navy vs the Bismark and the Battle of Leyte Gulf where the US escort carriers engaged a Japanese surface force. The difference though is that the Bismark tried to avoid a direct confrontation with the British Fleet, and the Japanese Navy only engaged when they believed the US carriers were nowhere to be found, and retreated when they believed they were under attack by those carriers. In other words, there is no historical scenario applicable to this proposed scenario, where the Russian surface force would go after the US carrier, because in reality the Russians would disengage that fight before it started.

1. This is not a realistic scenario as i said before
2. It does not base on russian naval doctrine
Put it simple , its a scenario with pre aranged ships on both sides , to make things much interesting , and since it would be much easyer with russian naval aviation , and us carrier beeing closer than 1000km from russian shore , its put in the middle of the ocean where russians don't have SAM cover and aviation , overall considering both fleets it puts both in a very heavy task give n the current ships listed above , thats why its more interesting, now rather than talking how unrealistic this scenario is you could try telling your thoughts on the situation and how you would react in such a GIVEN situation

 

[Galrahn]

1. This is not a realistic scenario as i said before
2. It does not base on russian naval doctrine
Put it simple , its a scenario with pre aranged ships on both sides , to make things much interesting , and since it would be much easyer with russian naval aviation , and us carrier beeing closer than 1000km from russian shore , its put in the middle of the ocean where russians don't have SAM cover and aviation , overall considering both fleets it puts both in a very heavy task give n the current ships listed above , thats why its more interesting, now rather than talking how unrealistic this scenario is you could try telling your thoughts on the situation and how you would react in such a GIVEN situation

In other words, your "interesting" scenario is a way to promote military discussion by ignoring realistic Naval strategy, doctrine, and tactics?

Let me ask a question, if it doesn't account for Russian Navy doctrine, and isn't intended to be realistic, than how exactly does the discussion contribute anything? Mods should look at this seriously and lock the thread, because there is nothing in this discussion that can be intellectually productive.

 

[XaNDeR]

In other words, your "interesting" scenario is a way to promote military discussion by ignoring realistic Naval strategy, doctrine, and tactics?

Let me ask a question, if it doesn't account for Russian Navy doctrine, and isn't intended to be realistic, than how exactly does the discussion contribute anything? Mods should look at this seriously and lock the thread, because there is nothing in this discussion that can be intellectually productive.

Because its a SCENARIO , which is meant to be fun , and by so you are learning about naval warfare if you would be given such a sittuation , man your really uptight , if you dont like it stop writing in the topic..
And besides , its entirely posible of such a scenario could happen in certain circumstances .

 

[mexsoldier]

yeah, is just a game

i think this is not reality and is not something that is happening just something that is imaginary, but is good because u can think about tyactic and so on.

 

[contedicavour]

Unless I missed something in previous posts, nobody mentioned the fact that the USN task force could also wreck havoc by launching TLAMs from the SSNs and the Burkes... a good 50+ TLAM volley would keep the Russians busy while the Super Hornets arrive and launch Harpoons
To spice up things a bit, add 1 or 2 converted Ohio SSBNs that are now SSGNs. They can launch more than 40 TLAMs on their own.
A last strange thing I noticed. The Russian task force would become much stronger with the Kuznetsov added in with some 30 navalized Flankers with R77 and R73 ...
Anyway, if Russia ever sent such a task force, I guess the USN could send 2 or even 3 carrier battle groups to face it. It's not a couple of Kirov/Ushakov CGs that would save them.

cheers

 

[XaNDeR]

Unless I missed something in previous posts, nobody mentioned the fact that the USN task force could also wreck havoc by launching TLAMs from the SSNs and the Burkes... a good 50+ TLAM volley would keep the Russians busy while the Super Hornets arrive and launch Harpoons
To spice up things a bit, add 1 or 2 converted Ohio SSBNs that are now SSGNs. They can launch more than 40 TLAMs on their own.
A last strange thing I noticed. The Russian task force would become much stronger with the Kuznetsov added in with some 30 navalized Flankers with R77 and R73 ...
Anyway, if Russia ever sent such a task force, I guess the USN could send 2 or even 3 carrier battle groups to face it. It's not a couple of Kirov/Ushakov CGs that would save them.

cheers

That tactic is pretty neat , but what if this battle was far away from shore , like 5000 km , then russians could ignore the TLAM's since they can not reach the shore
With Kuznetsov it would be boring as the Kirov and Slava anti air capability combined with air cover from flankers , the us would have no chance of penetrating its defence with the Super Hornets.
You should put yourself on US side and Russia side and tell what your tactics would be on each side , now that would be much more interesting !

 

[kato]

That tactic is pretty neat , but what if this battle was far away from shore , like 5000 km , then russians could ignore the TLAM's since they can not reach the shore

BGM-109B. Aka TASM. Tomahawk anti-ship missile.

Of course all TASM were retired in the early 90s, so we can't really have them at the same time as an AB Flight IIA or an Ohio SSGN.

Btw, BGM-109B TASM only had a range of 250nm (460 km), not the far higher range of the A, C or D land-attack models. TLAM (the BGM-109A/C/D models) does not have the capability to attack moving targets in any way, shape or form.
BGM-109E TacTom, if you mean that, can also only attack pre-programmed target coordinates (which, however, can be updated by UHF link via satellite). I'd seriously doubt you could update this data in a fashion designed to hit a moving target which performs evasive maneuvers.