Sunburst: The Invincible?

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rabs

New Member
Im kinda an idiot in this subject, but I would assume that the Burke would be in god mode and engaging each targets with a shoot shoot look pattern.

Cause I doubt too many commanders out there are going to be worried about preserving their magazines with 8 sunburns coming straight for them.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Im kinda an idiot in this subject, but I would assume that the Burke would be in god mode and engaging each targets with a shoot shoot look pattern.

Cause I doubt too many commanders out there are going to be worried about preserving their magazines with 8 sunburns coming straight for them.
Correct. As I said I was being conservative. ;) What's the rate of fire when a volley of Sunburns arrive in a 40-50 sec engagement window? One missile per 4 sec and two magazines? That's 16 missiles reasonably - shoot shoot. So Pk is then 0.99 or 23% chance of one or more Sunburns getting through to the CIWS/ECM.

EDIT: Made a typo. Replace Pk= 23% with Pk = 7.7%. Much better. ;)
 
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AegisFC

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
To get back to the topic of supersonic ASMs vs an air warfare destroyer or frigate.

The Sunburns (and Yakhonts) are quite dangerous - not to be ridiculed. Here is an imaginative scenario: An unsupported Burke patrols the Gulf 40 nm off the coast of Iran. A salvo of 8 Sunburns is launched in a radiolinked swarm to arrive at roughly the same time. Although the IR sensors of the Burke will detect the heat plumes of the missiles and provide early warning of what's up, it is first when the radars of the Burke begin to track the missiles they can be engaged.

Considering the relatively low above sea level height of the AN/SPY-1D(V) it will be the AN/SPS-67(V)3 that will do the early engagements. Being conservative and for the ease of calculation I'll assume the Burke is able to get 8 SM-2's or ESSMs off. Conservatively assuming a Pk of 0.9 for the SAMs, there is a 57% (1-0.9^8) chance of one or more Sunburns getting through to the CIWS/ECM.

Alright, pessimistic. But what do you think? Sorta highlights what doctrine and supporting assets mean. :D
The SPS-67 can not be used for engagement of missiles, only the gun can use that radar, and it is primarily a surface search radar anyways, so chances are SPY will pick them up first. Also the Burke would just go to auto fire and just start unloading without human intervention until the minimum range is met then CWIS would take over, a Burke can handle 18 SM-2's in the air at a time so dealing with a swarm of 8 shouldn't be a problem. While that is going on depending on the variant the SLQ-32 will go active, chaff, flares and Nulka will be launched to distract or confuse the missiles.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
The SPS-67 can not be used for engagement of missiles, only the gun can use that radar, and it is primarily a surface search radar anyways, so chances are SPY will pick them up first. Also the Burke would just go to auto fire and just start unloading without human intervention until the minimum range is met then CWIS would take over, a Burke can handle 18 SM-2's in the air at a time so dealing with a swarm of 8 shouldn't be a problem. While that is going on depending on the variant the SLQ-32 will go active, chaff, flares and Nulka will be launched to distract or confuse the missiles.
Alright, I may be too optimistic on what the SPS-67 can do. So, you've got a swarm of eight Sunburns - coming in at M3.4 or 1133 m/s. The Burkes SPY-1D has, at best, a radar horizon vs the Sunburns of 29 km. The Burke can be in God mode and autofire whatever but my question is: How many SAMs does the Burke get off in less than 22 secs? Rate of fire...
 

merocaine

New Member
To get back to the topic of supersonic ASMs vs an air warfare destroyer or frigate.

The Sunburns (and Yakhonts) are quite dangerous - not to be ridiculed. Here is an imaginative scenario: An unsupported Burke patrols the Gulf 40 nm off the coast of Iran. A salvo of 8 Sunburns is launched in a radiolinked swarm to arrive at roughly the same time. Although the IR sensors of the Burke will detect the heat plumes of the missiles and provide early warning of what's up, it is first when the radars of the Burke begin to track the missiles they can be engaged.

Considering the relatively low above sea level height of the AN/SPY-1D(V) it will be the AN/SPS-67(V)3 that will do the early engagements. Being conservative and for the ease of calculation I'll assume the Burke is able to get 8 SM-2's or ESSMs off. Conservatively assuming a Pk of 0.9 for the SAMs, there is a 57% (1-0.9^8) chance of one or more Sunburns getting through to the CIWS/ECM.

Alright, pessimistic. But what do you think? Sorta highlights what doctrine and supporting assets mean.
Forgive my ignorence GD, PK is hit ratio? ESSM?
 

merocaine

New Member
Cheers for that.

Althought this discussion is about the Sunburn, realisticly would the Iranians not try to attack from multiple vectors, eg C801, C802, Silkworms(not much of a threat I admit) as well as super sonic missiles. A high Low mix so to speak. How much would this kind of attack complicate a successful defence(if at all)

I know according to the Chinese the the C801/C802 have a PK of .85(Iranian air launched C802's achived a hit ratio .63 over 40 miles during tests in 97'), does anyone know what the PK of the Sunburn is?
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Cheers for that.

Althought this discussion is about the Sunburn, realisticly would the Iranians not try to attack from multiple vectors, eg C801, C802, Silkworms(not much of a threat I admit) as well as super sonic missiles. A high Low mix so to speak. How much would this kind of attack complicate a successful defence(if at all)

I know according to the Chinese the the C801/C802 have a PK of .85(Iranian air launched C802's achived a hit ratio .63 over 40 miles during tests in 97'), does anyone know what the PK of the Sunburn is?
Even the obsolete Silkworms could have catastrophic effects if launched on unescorted tankers in the small crowded Persian Gulf.
Another potential threat could come from Pasdaran/Navy fast patrol boats sailing next to larger auxiliary or civilian ships and being thus hidden from radars. They could get close enough to Dubai or Bahrain harbours to launch missiles (C802) into them and wreck havoc. Unless an armed helo spots them first.

cheers
 

rabs

New Member
Can the ABs fire off their missiles one at a time or can they empty their VLS cells all at once?
 

Viktor

New Member
According to Wiki, they have maximum rate of fire of 1 missile per second (per magazine? - I see gf answered that in prev post, it's per rack).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_launch_system#United_States_of_America

So, know I've gotten that wiser... A single Burke should be able to handle a volley on its own quite well. Shoot shoot look, is possible.
Am more than dubious about yours calculation.

What about missile abilitiy to manoevre/atack ship from diferent angels, what is kill probability of ESSM against targets that can manoevre at supersonic speed. You do realize US has never tested its defences against drones with even Sunburn capability.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Am more than dubious about yours calculation.
That's fine - it was a hypothetical. However:

What about missile abilitiy to manoevre/atack ship from diferent angels,
No problemo.

what is kill probability of ESSM against targets that can manoevre at supersonic speed.
Sure you can maneuver at speed, but not the kind of maneuvers that add to survivability of the supersonic ASM. It's a huge missile. You're either super fast or you're supermaneuverable.

You do realize US has never tested its defences against drones with even Sunburn capability.
And Sunburns have never been used in combat, or been tested against a target defending itself... Anyhow, Vandals and Coyotes are pretty close as performance goes.
 

merocaine

New Member
As a point of interest, The last large scale naval battle between two protagonists using advanced but untried Equipment was the Falklands. The one thing that struck me was the amount of equipment failures in combat, exorcets failing to connect , sea wolf and sea sparrow experiencing numourus techniqual difficulties. The only kit that work as planned was the Harriers, and I think there air to air missiles had only a 50% kill rate.
I tend to view the fantastic intercept rates of the USN with a large amount of skeptisism, and I imagine on its best days, employed against a undefended target, the sunburn would connect at least half the time.
First massed employment of smart bombs in 91, had a hit rate of 10% to 15%
I'm sure on the bombing range they were scoring 90%.

The numbers in the public domain are all we have to go on, but i dont think they really take into account the stress of real combat, humans are not automotons, and I do believe that the more complex a system is the more it will balls up in real combat.
Modern naval systems are among the most complex weapons we have ever built, but as yet are untried. Tank designers in WW2 were getting real time data back from the front and could tailor there designs accordingly. Modern Naval designiers dont have that luxury.
The one thing that worries me is the fact that the USN has never had to employ those systems. They are unproven in combat, that would make me very nervous. A tank is one thing, a big gun and good armour and away you go. Intercepting a missle with another missile one traveling at mach 2.5 the other at mach 4, is a different proposition.
Which I suppose is why the USN approch is to hit the launcher.
I think in a naval conflict in the Gulf this will become much more problematic.

Anyway I guess I dont have the same faith in the high tech to win wars that I should!
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
As a point of interest, The last large scale naval battle between two protagonists using advanced but untried Equipment was the Falklands. The one thing that struck me was the amount of equipment failures in combat, exorcets failing to connect , sea wolf and sea sparrow experiencing numourus techniqual difficulties. The only kit that work as planned was the Harriers, and I think there air to air missiles had only a 50% kill rate.
I'm not sure the Falklands War is representative of present technology and equipment. Both Sea Wolf and Sea Dart used were a 1960's vintage systems, the latter using vaccum tubes. And the radars used were 1950's vintage. Very early days for missile and sensor technology. As an analogy, Vietnam era Sparrows are not indicative of the efficiency of current air to air missiles.

The Sea Wolf could probably handle Exocet at the time, but IIRC never got the chance to engage one, as it was only deployed on two ships.

Also, the human factor and lack of situational awareness played a huge part in an Exocet striking HMS Sheffield.

So, IMHO not representative of todays capabilites (or threats).

Was the Sea Sparrow used at the Falklands War?

As a sidenote, the importance of airborne sensors were underlined in this war.

I tend to view the fantastic intercept rates of the USN with a large amount of skeptisism, and I imagine on its best days, employed against a undefended target, the sunburn would connect at least half the time.
First massed employment of smart bombs in 91, had a hit rate of 10% to 15%
I'm sure on the bombing range they were scoring 90%.
Fair enough. However, going by the reports, both the Standard and the ESSM seem to do very well in very complex tests. But as usual, the proof is in the pudding - we will only know if they are used for real against a supersonic missile swarm...

Btw, IIRC the hit rate of PGM during GW1 was 85%. Have never heard about the 10%-15% number, unless you're thinking of Mavericks hitting sand berms and thus hitting the target in the geometric sense, but not disabling it.

The numbers in the public domain are all we have to go on, but i dont think they really take into account the stress of real combat, humans are not automotons, and I do believe that the more complex a system is the more it will balls up in real combat.
That's why automation is good. Falklands might be an example. The more complex the system is the more automation one can expect, and I think it will work. However, this discussion is perhaps more philosophical - it's hard to discuss.

Modern naval systems are among the most complex weapons we have ever built, but as yet are untried. Tank designers in WW2 were getting real time data back from the front and could tailor there designs accordingly. Modern Naval designiers dont have that luxury.
The one thing that worries me is the fact that the USN has never had to employ those systems. They are unproven in combat, that would make me very nervous. A tank is one thing, a big gun and good armour and away you go. Intercepting a missle with another missile one traveling at mach 2.5 the other at mach 4, is a different proposition.
Yeah, I certainly wouldn't expect a Pk above 0.9 in operational condition. On the other hand, as I just found out, a single Burke can let so many missiles fly that even a lower Pk will see it through.

Which I suppose is why the USN approch is to hit the launcher.
I think in a naval conflict in the Gulf this will become much more problematic.
Yes, delivery platforms, sensors and C2. Simpler and more assured.

Anyway I guess I dont have the same faith in the high tech to win wars that I should!
I am of the impression that air-air and surface-air is the best managed aspects of warfare in the sense that technology yield control.

Depend on perspective.

:)
 

Viktor

New Member
As a point of interest, The last large scale naval battle between two protagonists using advanced but untried Equipment was the Falklands. The one thing that struck me was the amount of equipment failures in combat, exorcets failing to connect , sea wolf and sea sparrow experiencing numourus techniqual difficulties. The only kit that work as planned was the Harriers, and I think there air to air missiles had only a 50% kill rate.
I tend to view the fantastic intercept rates of the USN with a large amount of skeptisism, and I imagine on its best days, employed against a undefended target, the sunburn would connect at least half the time.
First massed employment of smart bombs in 91, had a hit rate of 10% to 15%
I'm sure on the bombing range they were scoring 90%.

The numbers in the public domain are all we have to go on, but i dont think they really take into account the stress of real combat, humans are not automotons, and I do believe that the more complex a system is the more it will balls up in real combat.
Modern naval systems are among the most complex weapons we have ever built, but as yet are untried. Tank designers in WW2 were getting real time data back from the front and could tailor there designs accordingly. Modern Naval designiers dont have that luxury.
The one thing that worries me is the fact that the USN has never had to employ those systems. They are unproven in combat, that would make me very nervous. A tank is one thing, a big gun and good armour and away you go. Intercepting a missle with another missile one traveling at mach 2.5 the other at mach 4, is a different proposition.
Which I suppose is why the USN approch is to hit the launcher.
I think in a naval conflict in the Gulf this will become much more problematic.

Anyway I guess I dont have the same faith in the high tech to win wars that I should!
Yep this may explaine few question and perhaps rise some eyebrow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operations_security_(OPSEC)
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Lemons are much harder to hide when certain degrees of transparency is engrained in the procurement process. Being democracies and all that.

And these are not black projects anyway. The important stuff is better hidden or not seen at all in public.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
Originally Posted by merocaine
Modern naval systems are among the most complex weapons we have ever built, but as yet are untried. Tank designers in WW2 were getting real time data back from the front and could tailor there designs accordingly. Modern Naval designiers dont have that luxury.
The one thing that worries me is the fact that the USN has never had to employ those systems. They are unproven in combat, that would make me very nervous.
I feel the same way merocaine. This is an old problem. Perhaps I'm being a bit cynical but it seems to me that whenever a new weapon is produced it is immediately accepted by all its supporters as being invincible. I guess this has to happen in order to convince defence forces to buy it and for those defence forces to be able to convince their governments to provide the funds. Governments then have to convince their constituents that the purchase is justified so again the ability of the weapon gets talked up.

Individual services also talk up the ability of their service to deal with the assets of another. Naval officers who have made a career in naval gunnery are, for example, likely to talk up the ability of a gun based system to take out an attacking aircraft or missile. Before WW2 the RN placed enormous confidence in the ability of the multiple 2 pdr pom pom to defend ships against air attack. That confidence cost many lives and resulted in many sunken ships.

For these reasons I like the idea of having more than one system to meet particular threats. If all else fails even a manually operated 0.5 MG has its place! :D

IMO the best way for navies to deal with missile threats is to set up the best layered defence system they can afford. We can't all have the assets of the USN (air strikes against launch platforms, air defence by interceptors, SM-2, ESSM, RAM, decoys, etc) but reliance on one system can prove fatal.

Cheers
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The important stuff is better hidden or not seen at all in public.
agree wholeheartedly. the only time you even hear of other defensive "processes" that the USN had in the cold war was when you listen to "old" EW officers talking about their jobs. I've never seen anything in the public domain detailing what they did in the event of a Soviet supersonic anti-shipping attack. Public domain data invariably is dumbed down to "see missile, track missile, invoke staged response, intercept missile with another missile" The modern replacements for what they used back in the 70's are now far more capable.

these kinds of threads are always dominated by "major widgets against major widgets" - and the truth is that there are lots of other bits of hardware involved that never get discussed.

the "my mach 55 widget is going to cream your skimmer with concurrent sensor systems" is really terribly simplistic - and bears no reflection at all on whats involved.
 

Wooki

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
we get back to some fundamentals here.

the USN has been training against mach 3-6 saturated attack opponents 20+ years ago, they were trained to deal with mach 3 incomings 45 years ago - the battlespace management at fleet level is far more sophisticated now than ever before - and the response times of defensive systems is greater.
don't you mean less GF?

An interesting study is The 1981-1988 Tanker War, which was part of the Iraq/Iran war. There were well over 500 commercial vessels damaged by missiles, mines, and gunboats during this time causing both the Soviet and Yank navies to re-flag tanker ships, belonging to friendly Gulf nations, and escort them out of the Gulf. We had one frigate attacked by a plane launched Iraqi Exocet with great loss of life and another frigate damaged badly by a Iranian mine. If you remember this period then you remember the USS Vincennes also shot down that Iranian civilian airliner by mistake with one of her SMs.

So in effect the study of history gives us some answers and expectations for the coming conflict. One of which is there is no way we can allow Iran to shut down the Gulf, which they would surely try and do. The next lesson is that we would be forced to send into the Gulf DDs and FGs to help protect shipping, as well as mine warfare units.

Hopefully we will have control of the air space. You can bet any regional air fields we would be using would come under heavy missile attack by the Iranians.
That would be 500 v/ls of 200 tons displacement or greater SUNK (according to Lloyds) with the loss of 5000 merchant seamen. The majority of which were filipinos and one or two Australians toasted by an Iraqi Exocet. In fact I know of one guy who was burned alive when an exocet passed between 2 crew members aft (burning the face of one with its exhaust), traveled down the work deck and exploded in the accomodation toasting one aussie skipper ala crispy carbon.

Talk about forgotten wars and forgotten dead.

w
 
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