Well, delivering early is an advantage, as I said, since it will free up later delivery slots. The Saudis, for example, have requested & got some RAF Tranche 2 delivery slots, thus causing a delay to RAF deliveries. We could make up most of that with the Austrian batch. As for customers which might want to buy a lot, but not all at once - well, they can do that anyway. I just don't see any advantage to be gained from selling brand-new aircraft at a knock-down price, when there are paying customers at full price, right now, & any potential bargain-basement customers don't actually want them yet.robsta83 said:The fulfilment of a previous order is valid and I'm guessing it is how it will happen if the cancellation occurs, however as Eurofighter is looking for new orders as any company is why not sell them to a country that is looking at replacing a great number of fighters but only interested in doing it in multiple lots.
By discounting the price of expensive (not more so than others) perhaps they could attract a follow on order due to the customer countries love of the EF. Granted I have no knowledge of contracting than that I read in articles and such but if Austria cancelled the order at all costs as has been suggested and incurred the 1 billion Euro or so fees would they not be the property of the manurfacturer?
That was my line of thought, happy be to corrected, my main speculation is could the cancellation be used to an advantage rather than the Saudis for example 18 jets sooner than planned, unless of course for the Saudis so please with jet buy a couple of dozen more
Cheers
New Austrian Government May Cancel Eurofighter Deal
- Thread starter swerve
- Start date
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
New Austrian Government May Cancel Eurofighter Deal
(Source: Deutsche Welle German radio; issued Oct. 6, 2006) (Edited for accuracy) defense-aerospace.com
Austria's newly elected center-left government may drop the purchase of 18 Eurofighters, a full-scale replica of which attracted widespread attention during the 2005 Zeltweg air show. (Eurofighter GmbH photo)Austria's newly-elected center-left government has threatened to make good on one of its election promises and scrap the purchase of 18 Eurofighters.
Before last Sunday's general election, the Social Democrats pledged to ditch the two billion euro ($2.5 billion) order put in place by the ruling conservative government of the time. Now preparing for government, the Social Democrats look set to deal EADS another blow by tabling a motion in favor of binning the contract as soon as the new parliament convenes.
It appears the new Social Democratic chancellor-elect, Alfred Gusenbauer, may signal the end of the deal as early as the end of October, when the new parliament meets for the first time.
"A committee of inquiry should clarify the political responsibility for the senseless procurement of this unbelievably expensive war machine," Josef Cap, the Social Democrats' floor leader, told Vienna's Der Standard newspaper. "We don't need the Eurofighter. It is not an ideological, but a financial issue. I've got nothing against these planes as such. But they cost an awful lot of money. I always believed that there were much better things to be done with that money."
With his country facing the possibility of a legal challenge and demands for compensation, Chancellor-elect Gusenbauer is taking no chances. "I want to see the contracts and they need to be examined by our best lawyers," he said last week.
[“The Eurofighter consortium is under contract by the Republic of Austria to deliver 18 aircraft beginning June 2007. The work of the Eurofighter consortium is on track,” a company spokesman told defense-aerospace.com.]
[EDITOR’S NOTE: There is, as yet, no new government in place in Austria. The final election results, which will include postal votes, are due to be published Oct. 9, and then coalition talks will eventually start. A new government could be in place as early as year-end or as late as Easter next year, and until a new government is sworn in the current government remains in place.]
The Eurofighter is built by three companies, BAE Systems in Britain, EADS in Germany and Spain and Alenia in Italy under a work sharing arrangement which reflects the number of aircraft being bought by the partner countries.
While Saudi Arabia continues to make positive noises about its order of 72 planes, none have yet been purchased, while South Korea and Singapore have both pulled out of talks after originally appearing keen, and bought the F-15.
Greece, which had an order for 60 aircraft, canceled it after a change of government due to financial constraints. Other countries tipped as possible buyers include India, Pakistan, Turkey, Norway and Denmark.
Countries debating orders may be put off by a possible Austrian cancellation. Export orders are seen as crucial because of their contribution to the overall profitability of the program.
Austria's participation in the project was controversial from the start as the small country was pushed into the deal by the outgoing conservative government of Wolfgang Schüssel despite being militarily neutral. The former government was going to spend up to 6 billion euros in total on Eurofighters over the next 20 years.
Partners prepare to fight Austria over deal
But reneging on the deal by Austria may not be as simple as just saying that it no longer wants the planes. The first four planes on order are already under construction in Germany, and it is unlikely that the companies involved in the Eurofighter's manufacture will let Austria off the hook so easily.
A spokesperson for BAE Systems said Thursday that the companies building the Eurofighter were "under contract with Austria. We are delivering against that contract. The first aircraft are in production."
-ends-
Another article put the cost of cancelling the contract upward of 1 billion Euro IIRC, if cancelled would this mean the possiblity of 18 dirt cheap Eurofighters? Perhaps the oppurtunity for some country who could never afford the outlay now has it as a possiblity, In my wild dreams I would like New Zealand to get them but since the governments are like bloody twins in thinking of course it ridiculous, but mm nice to think about.
There must be some other countries who would be interested though? What if any discounts could be place on them using previous contracts as something to go by?
(Source: Deutsche Welle German radio; issued Oct. 6, 2006) (Edited for accuracy) defense-aerospace.com
Austria's newly elected center-left government may drop the purchase of 18 Eurofighters, a full-scale replica of which attracted widespread attention during the 2005 Zeltweg air show. (Eurofighter GmbH photo)Austria's newly-elected center-left government has threatened to make good on one of its election promises and scrap the purchase of 18 Eurofighters.
Before last Sunday's general election, the Social Democrats pledged to ditch the two billion euro ($2.5 billion) order put in place by the ruling conservative government of the time. Now preparing for government, the Social Democrats look set to deal EADS another blow by tabling a motion in favor of binning the contract as soon as the new parliament convenes.
It appears the new Social Democratic chancellor-elect, Alfred Gusenbauer, may signal the end of the deal as early as the end of October, when the new parliament meets for the first time.
"A committee of inquiry should clarify the political responsibility for the senseless procurement of this unbelievably expensive war machine," Josef Cap, the Social Democrats' floor leader, told Vienna's Der Standard newspaper. "We don't need the Eurofighter. It is not an ideological, but a financial issue. I've got nothing against these planes as such. But they cost an awful lot of money. I always believed that there were much better things to be done with that money."
With his country facing the possibility of a legal challenge and demands for compensation, Chancellor-elect Gusenbauer is taking no chances. "I want to see the contracts and they need to be examined by our best lawyers," he said last week.
[“The Eurofighter consortium is under contract by the Republic of Austria to deliver 18 aircraft beginning June 2007. The work of the Eurofighter consortium is on track,” a company spokesman told defense-aerospace.com.]
[EDITOR’S NOTE: There is, as yet, no new government in place in Austria. The final election results, which will include postal votes, are due to be published Oct. 9, and then coalition talks will eventually start. A new government could be in place as early as year-end or as late as Easter next year, and until a new government is sworn in the current government remains in place.]
The Eurofighter is built by three companies, BAE Systems in Britain, EADS in Germany and Spain and Alenia in Italy under a work sharing arrangement which reflects the number of aircraft being bought by the partner countries.
While Saudi Arabia continues to make positive noises about its order of 72 planes, none have yet been purchased, while South Korea and Singapore have both pulled out of talks after originally appearing keen, and bought the F-15.
Greece, which had an order for 60 aircraft, canceled it after a change of government due to financial constraints. Other countries tipped as possible buyers include India, Pakistan, Turkey, Norway and Denmark.
Countries debating orders may be put off by a possible Austrian cancellation. Export orders are seen as crucial because of their contribution to the overall profitability of the program.
Austria's participation in the project was controversial from the start as the small country was pushed into the deal by the outgoing conservative government of Wolfgang Schüssel despite being militarily neutral. The former government was going to spend up to 6 billion euros in total on Eurofighters over the next 20 years.
Partners prepare to fight Austria over deal
But reneging on the deal by Austria may not be as simple as just saying that it no longer wants the planes. The first four planes on order are already under construction in Germany, and it is unlikely that the companies involved in the Eurofighter's manufacture will let Austria off the hook so easily.
A spokesperson for BAE Systems said Thursday that the companies building the Eurofighter were "under contract with Austria. We are delivering against that contract. The first aircraft are in production."
-ends-
Another article put the cost of cancelling the contract upward of 1 billion Euro IIRC, if cancelled would this mean the possiblity of 18 dirt cheap Eurofighters? Perhaps the oppurtunity for some country who could never afford the outlay now has it as a possiblity, In my wild dreams I would like New Zealand to get them but since the governments are like bloody twins in thinking of course it ridiculous, but mm nice to think about.
There must be some other countries who would be interested though? What if any discounts could be place on them using previous contracts as something to go by?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #3
I think it unlikely there'd be 18 sold dirt cheap. Firstly, if they're built against an Austrian order, & the Austrians have had to pay a large part of the price, they might be entitled to a slice of anything paid for them, & will be very anxious to get back as much as possible. Secondly, why sell 'em dirt cheap? What's the incentive to do so? Why not deliver them early to one of the existing customers? It would free up later delivery positions for quicker delivery to potential future customers, thus making full-price sales easier. e.g. the Saudis might like earlier delivery.robsta83 said:
Also, NZ A-4s were already paid for. Nothing's cheaper than something you already own. So it doesn't matter how cheap, NZ has already decided it doesn't want fighters ar any price.
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
The fulfilment of a previous order is valid and I'm guessing it is how it will happen if the cancellation occurs, however as Eurofighter is looking for new orders as any company is why not sell them to a country that is looking at replacing a great number of fighters but only interested in doing it in multiple lots.swerve said:
By discounting the price of expensive (not more so than others) perhaps they could attract a follow on order due to the customer countries love of the EF. Granted I have no knowledge of contracting than that I read in articles and such but if Austria cancelled the order at all costs as has been suggested and incurred the 1 billion Euro or so fees would they not be the property of the manurfacturer?
That was my line of thought, happy be to corrected, my main speculation is could the cancellation be used to an advantage rather than the Saudis for example 18 jets sooner than planned, unless of course for the Saudis so please with jet buy a couple of dozen more
Cheers
contedicavour
New Member
I would only say that the Social Democrats may have to govern in coalition with the previously governing People's Party... so numbers on order may be reduced by total cancellation remains only a possibility at this stage.
Besides, Austria does need a squadron of air defence fighters since the leased Swiss F5s are obsolete. Buying Gripens may be cheaper but not that much.
Last but not least, there are certainly penalties to be paid for such a cancellation after final confirmation of an order...
cheers
Besides, Austria does need a squadron of air defence fighters since the leased Swiss F5s are obsolete. Buying Gripens may be cheaper but not that much.
Last but not least, there are certainly penalties to be paid for such a cancellation after final confirmation of an order...
cheers
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #6
And are still the property of the Swiss, who aren't inclined to extend the lease.
contedicavour
New Member
What are the Swiss using currently ? Only the 30-something F18C/Ds ? Or are they still operating some of the older F5 and Mirages III ?
cheers
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Apparently no more Mirages are in service but they are still operating some F5's, According to the Swiss Airforce 86 E's and F's but that ain't right I wouldn't think despite a July 06 update tag
http://www.vbs-ddps.ch/internet/luftwaffe/en/home/about/assets/aircraft/tig5e.html
contedicavour
New Member
Thks for the link. Strange that a rich country such as Switzerland is still operating those obsolete Tigers... they could at least modernize their air force with second hand Falcons or Hornets from the USAF/ANGApparently no more Mirages are in service but they are still operating some F5's, According to the Swiss Airforce 86 E's and F's but that ain't right I wouldn't think despite a July 06 update tag
http://www.vbs-ddps.ch/internet/luftwaffe/en/home/about/assets/aircraft/tig5e.html
cheers
Scorpion82
New Member
The swiss is also flying F-18C/D in newest versions. Beyond 2010 a new fighter is intended to replace the F-5. The european fighters seem to be prefered this time.
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks for the info. So the Swiss are planning to fly the good old Tiger until beyond 2010. Hmm it will be the oldest fighterbomber flying in Europe ! For an economy as strong (I'll just mention 13% current account surplus) it's a strange choice.
cheers
Scorpion82
New Member
Correct, but not only pilots also technicans and other support personal. The technicans are trained by the TSLw1 in Kaufbeuren.
contedicavour
New Member
Let's just hope that all this will make the new Austrian government think twice before really cancelling the contract
cheers
RubiconNZ
The Wanderer
Quick Update
Austrian Minister Says Canceling Jet Deal Costly
By ALEXANDRA ZAWADIL, REUTERS, VIENNA
Austria’s defense minister stepped into a post-election coalition crisis on Nov. 6 by saying that canceling a warplane contract criticized by Social Democrats would be a "foolish" step costing $1.5 billion or more. The Social Democrats narrowly beat acting Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel’s conservative People’s Party in an Oct. 1 election.
Coalition talks between the two foundered after the conservatives bolted in protest at the Social Democrats’ role in launching parliamentary probes last week into the fighter purchase and banking scandals.
Schuessel, whose outgoing coalition with a far-right party pushed through the contract for 18 Eurofighter jets in 2002, said on Nov. 5 the conservatives would not return to coalition negotiations until the two investigations had been completed.
Defence Minister Guenther Platter said the Eurofighter EADS consortium had given him an initial cost estimate for canceling the contract, under which jet deliveries are supposed to begin next year, of at least 1.2 billion euros.
The cost could rise to 1.6 billion ($2 billion), he said.
Platter was replying to a request from the Social Democrats, Greens and far-right Freedom Party, joint sponsors of a majority parliamentary vote for the probe, to look into cost-efficient ways of getting out of the contract.
Critics call the deal too expensive, but the minister said abandoning it would be costly too. "Exiting this contract would be financially foolish. It would mean Austria has no surveillance of its air space, without an alternative, and would damage our republic’s reputation," he told a news conference.
"We will have to check whether this cost estimate is accurate," Social Democratic leader Alfred Gusenbauer told another news conference.
Gusenbauer, who has no other possible partner for a majority coalition except the conservatives, has accused them of trying to cling to power by avoiding talks on a new government.
"It’s up to the People’s Party to return to the negotiating table; they were the ones who left it," he said. "If something doesn’t happen this week, Austrians will lose patience."
Sixty-nine percent of Austrians said in a poll published by news magazine profile on Nov. 6 that the conservatives’ walkout from coalition talks was unjustified. Most Austrians want a mainstream "grand coalition" to avoid instability, polls show.
If the current coalition efforts fail irretrievably, Gusenbauer could try to form a minority government. But early elections would be more likely.
Looks like it will go ahead then, gotta love Coalition Governments
Austrian Minister Says Canceling Jet Deal Costly
By ALEXANDRA ZAWADIL, REUTERS, VIENNA
Austria’s defense minister stepped into a post-election coalition crisis on Nov. 6 by saying that canceling a warplane contract criticized by Social Democrats would be a "foolish" step costing $1.5 billion or more. The Social Democrats narrowly beat acting Chancellor Wolfgang Schuessel’s conservative People’s Party in an Oct. 1 election.
Coalition talks between the two foundered after the conservatives bolted in protest at the Social Democrats’ role in launching parliamentary probes last week into the fighter purchase and banking scandals.
Schuessel, whose outgoing coalition with a far-right party pushed through the contract for 18 Eurofighter jets in 2002, said on Nov. 5 the conservatives would not return to coalition negotiations until the two investigations had been completed.
Defence Minister Guenther Platter said the Eurofighter EADS consortium had given him an initial cost estimate for canceling the contract, under which jet deliveries are supposed to begin next year, of at least 1.2 billion euros.
The cost could rise to 1.6 billion ($2 billion), he said.
Platter was replying to a request from the Social Democrats, Greens and far-right Freedom Party, joint sponsors of a majority parliamentary vote for the probe, to look into cost-efficient ways of getting out of the contract.
Critics call the deal too expensive, but the minister said abandoning it would be costly too. "Exiting this contract would be financially foolish. It would mean Austria has no surveillance of its air space, without an alternative, and would damage our republic’s reputation," he told a news conference.
"We will have to check whether this cost estimate is accurate," Social Democratic leader Alfred Gusenbauer told another news conference.
Gusenbauer, who has no other possible partner for a majority coalition except the conservatives, has accused them of trying to cling to power by avoiding talks on a new government.
"It’s up to the People’s Party to return to the negotiating table; they were the ones who left it," he said. "If something doesn’t happen this week, Austrians will lose patience."
Sixty-nine percent of Austrians said in a poll published by news magazine profile on Nov. 6 that the conservatives’ walkout from coalition talks was unjustified. Most Austrians want a mainstream "grand coalition" to avoid instability, polls show.
If the current coalition efforts fail irretrievably, Gusenbauer could try to form a minority government. But early elections would be more likely.
Looks like it will go ahead then, gotta love Coalition Governments
contedicavour
New Member
It's rare to see a major party fighting it out that strongly over a defence issue. Normally parties just ignore defence issues
Well done Conservatives, and hopefully the Typhoon contract is there to stay.
cheers
Well done Conservatives, and hopefully the Typhoon contract is there to stay.
cheers
Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Well it would be idiotic to cancel now. Penalty payments would be severe - Austria could have easily spent a similar sum of money in charges and got no jets!!!!It's rare to see a major party fighting it out that strongly over a defence issue. Normally parties just ignore defence issues
Well done Conservatives, and hopefully the Typhoon contract is there to stay.
cheers