NZDF General discussion thread

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
just about any drone that can carry a payload can become a combat capable drone "in some form"...

Certainly. Possibly as a one way suicide mission the air and sea drones could be packed with explosives a with a swarm of them, a few are bound to get through to its target. But that doesnt seem to be the role.mentioned for these Those 'isr' drones dont have the loiter time, range or capability to cover the Maritime patrol role of a P8 four P8 cant do. Which the defence review mentioned!
Which is why myself and others here mentioned seaguardian. Ill gamble and say NZDF wont have that capability gap filled or theyd be trailing much more capable systems now.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
The enduser can choose what payload the drones can carry.
The SA7, for its part, is a multipurpose drone for both airborne logistics and one-way attacks

As for the likes of Seaguardian or similar, for long range maritime ISR, that's a separate project likely to be operated by the air force as part of a broader, in-service, capability to complement existing long range assets such as the P-8. Presume NZDF are looking at the RAAF's experience operating the MQ-4C to better inform the decision making process, so we'll have to wait and see.

Personally though, whilst such assets would undoubtably be beneficial for long endurance surveillance tasks, their survivability if contested could be called into question, therefore wonder if the better strategy would be to operate a small number of them but also seek additional manned craft such as P-8 which can to a reasonable extent defend itself (as well as better contribute to surface and sub-surface warfare). Mind you the recent P-8 acquisition notifications (eg for Singapore and others) seem to suggest the cost of the Poseidon has doubled ... well unless the cost includes extremely extensive support and training packages!

This announcement (Syos) is for further experimental drones for Army and Navy to further expand doctrine.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Somebody should point out to them that 25 Km equates to about 82,000 feet. The lowest generally accepted definition of where space starts is 100,000 feet. It’s a high altitude aircraft, not a “spaceplane”
 

downunderblue

Well-Known Member
I just posted in the ADF general thread re today's ANZMIN summit and the release of the ANZAC 2035 joint statement. Lots of words and I used AI to break them down in the thread.

Re NZ and the joint presconference, Julie Collins and Sir Winston were both asked about the ANZAC replacement and whether they would commit to buying a Mogami from the AU production line. They skipped that question but Julie Collins confirmed they hadn't yet made a decision yet it was between the Mogami and a UK design (Type 31).

FWIW.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
That's interesting. I was thinking that AH140 (not necessarily in the RN Type 31 configuration) could be of interest to the RNZN, & Mogami would obviously be something they'd look at, for interoperability, but I didn't expect it to be narrowed down to those two yet.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Somebody should point out to them that 25 Km equates to about 82,000 feet. The lowest generally accepted definition of where space starts is 100,000 feet. It’s a high altitude aircraft, not a “spaceplane”

All the same its good to know our frigates are capable of tracking targets at that height and speed.
 

downunderblue

Well-Known Member
That's interesting. I was thinking that AH140 (not necessarily in the RN Type 31 configuration) could be of interest to the RNZN, & Mogami would obviously be something they'd look at, for interoperability, but I didn't expect it to be narrowed down to those two yet.
She didnt say but it was my assumption alone that it was T31.
 

Warhawk

New Member
I like to see RNZ navy run with Type 31 modular frigate probably get 3 to 4 for the price of 2 Mogamis frigates and. do away with OPV vessels. You could have 2 armed Type 31 and 2 less equipment Type 31 but have shared modulars to fully equipped the third frigate that shares with fourth frigate .
 

Paulie2

New Member
Below is a copy of an article published in Business Desk during a visit by British Minister of State Chris Bryant in December, it shows the pressure the UK are mounting on behalf of Babcock and type 31.

British Minister of State Chris Bryant

recently commented on the potential for a "package deal" involving the sale of British Type 31 "Arrowhead" frigates to New Zealand and the development of a large dry dock in Northland.

Key Comments from Chris Bryant (December 2025)
  • Viability of Dry Dock: Bryant questioned whether the proposed
    Northland dry dock
    project in New Zealand would be commercially viable without the inclusion of British frigates as part of the procurement package.
  • Arrowhead Frigate Pitch: He stated that the UK "stands ready with the Arrowhead" as a replacement for New Zealand’s aging ANZAC-class frigates, suggesting that combining the two projects could lead to "additional savings".
  • Strategic Collaboration: The minister emphasised that the dry dock's success might depend on the "package of new ships," urging decision-makers to consider how the two projects "add up" together.
    BusinessDesk | NZBusinessDesk | NZ +3

R
 

Attachments

kiwi in exile

Well-Known Member
TVNZ Q & a Jack Tame has a 30 m in interview w/ one Retired Maj-Gen John Howard re NZs strategic situation.

Impressive CV. He's a good speaker on the need for a broader strategic plan/public discussion. I have said this before but we need to have a discussion/plan for NZs broader strategic security (broader than just defence). Its good to see an intelligent, well spoken NZer who has been there and done that engaging in this.

There is also a NZ Initiative podcast with him called 'Hope is not a strategy" which i havn't listened too yet.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
TVNZ Q & a Jack Tame has a 30 m in interview w/ one Retired Maj-Gen John Howard re NZs strategic situation.

Impressive CV. He's a good speaker on the need for a broader strategic plan/public discussion. I have said this before but we need to have a discussion/plan for NZs broader strategic security (broader than just defence). Its good to see an intelligent, well spoken NZer who has been there and done that engaging in this.

There is also a NZ Initiative podcast with him called 'Hope is not a strategy" which i havn't listened too yet.
John Howard was my CO of 1RNZIR, he lead us all and never forgot his men & women the higher he climbed the Officer ranks, an astute person who knew how to build an effective fighting Unit and people whom would follow him anywhere. Great Officer great man.
 

SamB

New Member
Look around you. New Zealand has people from every nation and culture. They have scares and wounds. They remember the boot of empires. "I remember it too". That is why colonialism will not return in the same form.

Once New Zealand offered sanctuary. Now it is in dire straits. This state of disrepair did not appear in a single moment. It appeared because of careless decisions made by people who think themselves too important to be wrong. Some people fear this word colonialism. They were told that complexity must simplify itself. That culture is an obstacle and citizens are just a number and they treat strategy like an after thought.

Culture is punished as is belief and traditions. These are the things that will inform how people react when threatened, or inspired. Do not ignore these things. The people must see what happens when uncertainty is removed.

No one is here to resurrect a dead corpse. No one is here to facilitate the importation of illegal immigrants. No one is here to engineer another one billion abortions in the next thirty years as has happened in the last thirty years. And no one is here to facilitate the transition of men into woman. No one is here to build machines that rely on terror to function. That lie has cost dearly that fear is the only language the people understand.

What we have been presented with is an opportunity to re-engineer a machine where trade flows and streets are safe and a future that does not collapse with every passing rumour or gunfire. The Great British Empire thought that the machine was a massive fleet. China thinks it's a massive population and America is trying to figure out which is which.

Do not be insulted with promises of paradise. Stories of paradise are told by leaders who cannot build reality. Reality is built with structure and competence and with consequences that are consistent regardless of title or proximity to power. There will be no untouchable men or wars of pride and no private kingdoms disguised as governance. There will be standards and accountability. But most of all there will be order not because of fear but because it works.

Chaos cannot be fought. It must be denied oxygen. Not with spectacle but with inevitability. History does not belong to the loudest voice. History belongs to the most prepared. New Zealand has been the heart of the south pacific and has survived generations of discipline and rhythm where once again that rhythm must return. New Zealand must be rebuilt stronger and smarter not because it is feared but because it is inevitable and inevitability is the only power that matters because it offers something that is permanent.

It is for these reasons why I believe that the Treaty of Waitangi be rebuilt and reimagined into An Indo Pacific collective security and interoperability agreement with Australia, Indonesia and south pacific nations that would see NZDFs budget pushed closer to 3% a year rather than the aspirational 2%, sustained by a sovereign wealth fund that derives wealth from Antarctica and south pacific resource protection taking NZDF from a coast guard to a regional force of AI, drones, loitering munitions. Satellites, patrol platforms, disaster relief, integration, interoperability, kinetics, command and control censors etc and sustainable deployments. AUKAS Pilar2 will be crucial in providing technology accelerators.

There's been a lot of bitching about the AUKAS deal and a lot of fear. It must be said that the charity of the current and previous Australian government will be crucial to the future of the U.S. U.K. and Australian Navy's. $400 billion cannot be understated. The lack of ambition and ruthless desire for skilled craftsmen definitely is.

Depending on one's definition of infrastructure all the civil engineering projects, food and education is a public health initiative and safe drinkable water is a national security issue. All of which is in a state of dysfunction. I was just a boy when New Zealands population was 3 million. Life was good. It took my parents less than 20 minutes to get to work. You'll be lucky to get to the next bus stop in twenty minutes some days. In other words the tax system and public and private funding models that got us here won't be capable of re-engineering the machine.

It'll take a Scandinavian style Sovereign wealth fund that takes advantage resource protection and extraction and New Zealand’s super fund managers offering 10% returns.

There are also licencing fees for scott base and access into the Ross dependency

If kiwis are to continue paying premium prices for primary products such as fisheries and dairy there better be a good reason for it. Jam some of that ill gotten price gouging into a sovereign wealth fund earning 10% per year.

Appropriate partners would be able to negotiate investment alongside government investment into technology accelerators and slap levies on the lot too but first of all a study into doubling bass load energy and all the technology needed to make good on a new Te Tiriti. There’s AI, satellites and drones, big farma, primary and secondary and tertiary infrastructure. Perhaps doubling bass load energy is understated. A survey would have to be conducted. But The Treaty of Waitangi grants The New Zealand Government the right to build a Navy and Airforce. You'll need it to do that again.

And there’s going to have to be a lot of subsidies to prevent the brain drain with purpose built universities, Polytechs, hospitals and AI data centres. Those AI data centres are going to need a heck of a lot of power. So much so that nations like America and France are bringing nuclear power plants out of mothball and constructing new ones.

New Zealand needs operational independence from the all the promises of the future by raiding funds for short term political projects. Appropriate board members and/or Iwi Chairs just as an example would gain Five Eyes/AUKAS security clearance so that investment aligns with Treaty principles or some kind of operational independence.

The fund would act as a fiscal shock absorber. If global tensions drop and the 3% NZDF funding floor is no longer sufficient to sustain the governments obligations, the fund’s accumulated capital would cover the shortfall, ensuring that the combat-capable status of NZDF never regresses to underfunded levels again.

New Zealand has proven itself on the battlefield yet the most dangerous adversary lays behind the eyes. This message is for everyone in case we begin to lie to ourselves. An all of nation approach to national defence is patience disguised as restraint. A nation that shouts is already afraid. People who shout mistake silence for obedience and loyalty for peace. The British Empire proved it was neither. The future of New Zealands holistic approach to national defence expands along arteries of Commerce and defends logistics not symbols, and studies victory and defeat instead of celebrating or mourning. We cannot afford those mistakes. Every culture leaves fingerprints in its music and architecture and grief, learn those and their formations become as predictable as weather.

War is not politics by other means it is language spoken badly by inpatient men. New Zealanders often speak as if we are different. Or perhaps kiwis wear arrogance more casually.

How many lives are acceptable in the name of a principled stance, no one really knows. That unknowing is the dangerous part. That we can rest on our morals and congratulate each other for reserving world peace only for for our echo bunkers.

The older sister of the enlightened American Empire; "Empirailism", leaves much to be desired and a strangely perfect amazement at an empire that could exist. A place where strength protects the fragile instead of humiliating them. Militaries world wild build monuments to be feared and are shocked when people hate us. The future of New Zealand's all of nation approach to defence should be quite. It should listen before it strikes.

No more Pharaohs pretending to be gods. No more celebration or commiserating victories so loudly that it wakens extremists. The future will belong to those who can wait without sleeping and if I am wrong we will be just another confident generation of architects engineering ruin.

If the historians are fortunate enough to argue over who was the saviour and who was the villain I'm sure either title will suffice.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Look around you. New Zealand has people from every nation and culture. They have scares and wounds. They remember the boot of empires. "I remember it too". That is why colonialism will not return in the same form.

Once New Zealand offered sanctuary. Now it is in dire straits. This state of disrepair did not appear in a single moment. It appeared because of careless decisions made by people who think themselves too important to be wrong. Some people fear this word colonialism. They were told that complexity must simplify itself. That culture is an obstacle and citizens are just a number and they treat strategy like an after thought.

Culture is punished as is belief and traditions. These are the things that will inform how people react when threatened, or inspired. Do not ignore these things. The people must see what happens when uncertainty is removed.

No one is here to resurrect a dead corpse. No one is here to facilitate the importation of illegal immigrants. No one is here to engineer another one billion abortions in the next thirty years as has happened in the last thirty years. And no one is here to facilitate the transition of men into woman. No one is here to build machines that rely on terror to function. That lie has cost dearly that fear is the only language the people understand.

What we have been presented with is an opportunity to re-engineer a machine where trade flows and streets are safe and a future that does not collapse with every passing rumour or gunfire. The Great British Empire thought that the machine was a massive fleet. China thinks it's a massive population and America is trying to figure out which is which.

Do not be insulted with promises of paradise. Stories of paradise are told by leaders who cannot build reality. Reality is built with structure and competence and with consequences that are consistent regardless of title or proximity to power. There will be no untouchable men or wars of pride and no private kingdoms disguised as governance. There will be standards and accountability. But most of all there will be order not because of fear but because it works.

Chaos cannot be fought. It must be denied oxygen. Not with spectacle but with inevitability. History does not belong to the loudest voice. History belongs to the most prepared. New Zealand has been the heart of the south pacific and has survived generations of discipline and rhythm where once again that rhythm must return. New Zealand must be rebuilt stronger and smarter not because it is feared but because it is inevitable and inevitability is the only power that matters because it offers something that is permanent.

It is for these reasons why I believe that the Treaty of Waitangi be rebuilt and reimagined into An Indo Pacific collective security and interoperability agreement with Australia, Indonesia and south pacific nations that would see NZDFs budget pushed closer to 3% a year rather than the aspirational 2%, sustained by a sovereign wealth fund that derives wealth from Antarctica and south pacific resource protection taking NZDF from a coast guard to a regional force of AI, drones, loitering munitions. Satellites, patrol platforms, disaster relief, integration, interoperability, kinetics, command and control censors etc and sustainable deployments. AUKAS Pilar2 will be crucial in providing technology accelerators.

There's been a lot of bitching about the AUKAS deal and a lot of fear. It must be said that the charity of the current and previous Australian government will be crucial to the future of the U.S. U.K. and Australian Navy's. $400 billion cannot be understated. The lack of ambition and ruthless desire for skilled craftsmen definitely is.

Depending on one's definition of infrastructure all the civil engineering projects, food and education is a public health initiative and safe drinkable water is a national security issue. All of which is in a state of dysfunction. I was just a boy when New Zealands population was 3 million. Life was good. It took my parents less than 20 minutes to get to work. You'll be lucky to get to the next bus stop in twenty minutes some days. In other words the tax system and public and private funding models that got us here won't be capable of re-engineering the machine.

It'll take a Scandinavian style Sovereign wealth fund that takes advantage resource protection and extraction and New Zealand’s super fund managers offering 10% returns.

There are also licencing fees for scott base and access into the Ross dependency

If kiwis are to continue paying premium prices for primary products such as fisheries and dairy there better be a good reason for it. Jam some of that ill gotten price gouging into a sovereign wealth fund earning 10% per year.

Appropriate partners would be able to negotiate investment alongside government investment into technology accelerators and slap levies on the lot too but first of all a study into doubling bass load energy and all the technology needed to make good on a new Te Tiriti. There’s AI, satellites and drones, big farma, primary and secondary and tertiary infrastructure. Perhaps doubling bass load energy is understated. A survey would have to be conducted. But The Treaty of Waitangi grants The New Zealand Government the right to build a Navy and Airforce. You'll need it to do that again.

And there’s going to have to be a lot of subsidies to prevent the brain drain with purpose built universities, Polytechs, hospitals and AI data centres. Those AI data centres are going to need a heck of a lot of power. So much so that nations like America and France are bringing nuclear power plants out of mothball and constructing new ones.

New Zealand needs operational independence from the all the promises of the future by raiding funds for short term political projects. Appropriate board members and/or Iwi Chairs just as an example would gain Five Eyes/AUKAS security clearance so that investment aligns with Treaty principles or some kind of operational independence.

The fund would act as a fiscal shock absorber. If global tensions drop and the 3% NZDF funding floor is no longer sufficient to sustain the governments obligations, the fund’s accumulated capital would cover the shortfall, ensuring that the combat-capable status of NZDF never regresses to underfunded levels again.

New Zealand has proven itself on the battlefield yet the most dangerous adversary lays behind the eyes. This message is for everyone in case we begin to lie to ourselves. An all of nation approach to national defence is patience disguised as restraint. A nation that shouts is already afraid. People who shout mistake silence for obedience and loyalty for peace. The British Empire proved it was neither. The future of New Zealands holistic approach to national defence expands along arteries of Commerce and defends logistics not symbols, and studies victory and defeat instead of celebrating or mourning. We cannot afford those mistakes. Every culture leaves fingerprints in its music and architecture and grief, learn those and their formations become as predictable as weather.

War is not politics by other means it is language spoken badly by inpatient men. New Zealanders often speak as if we are different. Or perhaps kiwis wear arrogance more casually.

How many lives are acceptable in the name of a principled stance, no one really knows. That unknowing is the dangerous part. That we can rest on our morals and congratulate each other for reserving world peace only for for our echo bunkers.

The older sister of the enlightened American Empire; "Empirailism", leaves much to be desired and a strangely perfect amazement at an empire that could exist. A place where strength protects the fragile instead of humiliating them. Militaries world wild build monuments to be feared and are shocked when people hate us. The future of New Zealand's all of nation approach to defence should be quite. It should listen before it strikes.

No more Pharaohs pretending to be gods. No more celebration or commiserating victories so loudly that it wakens extremists. The future will belong to those who can wait without sleeping and if I am wrong we will be just another confident generation of architects engineering ruin.

If the historians are fortunate enough to argue over who was the saviour and who was the villain I'm sure either title will suffice.

If anything i think the last year has shown the 'empire' model at its worst. Due to the the global impact of unjustified tarrifs, economic terrorism in its own right, the illegal wars which has led to the most unstable environment we've seen in decades.

Frankly i see AUKUS as doomed as a result of Trumps erractic behavior. He says he doesnt need us and we're cowards until he sees Iran war is failing.Then all of a sudden its help us, then waives a stick and says, serious repercussions by us if you dont?

Allegedly has a 'peace deal' while preparing a ground invasion.which many former promenient defence chiefs now qouted on youtube have said this would be a catastrophe for any invading navy or ground force there in the long term.

They struggle to even replace their own warships and subs yet somehow are going to build up to 9 nuclear powered ones for Austraila, before the deadline

Im generation X myself.Grew up in Whangerei. We had WECO Engineering, Marsden Point and the meat works providing thousands of jobs. For the life of me I cant figure why the govt didnt value such businesses and find a way to keep them running.

Now we have to import refined oil for how much more? And the govt is making several million dollars a day in taxes on that.

The intelligent thing to do in my opinion would be investing that into green energy tech on a massive scale. So we arent beholden to or affected by gulf states and the wars there .
 
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