F-35 Program - General Discussion

[swerve]

Used to be called Trivandrum in English. When I flew out of there the English signs all said Trivandrum. I think Thiruvananthapuram is more like the Malayalam original.

Everything new since then. I remember the airport opening for my flight. I'd arrived at what I thought was a reasonable time before departure & there was no sign of life. IIRC there was a stall outside selling tea, so I waited. It gradually woke up, & they let the people waiting outside in.

Then an Air Lanka plane arrived from Colombo, & after a while we boarded it & flew to Colombo. There was no sign of any other flights. December 1984.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

From which i understand, Spain has rejected the F-35, and will search for an European alternative.
Here the original article:
El Gobierno aparca la compra de cazas F-35 estadounidenses y busca alternativas europeas

Here an article in English.
Spain rejects Lockheed Martin F-35 in favour of Eurofighter and FCAS programme options.

 

[John Fedup]

From which i understand, Spain has rejected the F-35, and will search for an European alternative.
Here the original article:
El Gobierno aparca la compra de cazas F-35 estadounidenses y busca alternativas europeas

Here an article in English.
Spain rejects Lockheed Martin F-35 in favour of Eurofighter and FCAS programme options.

If Spain wants to limit defence spending to 2% then perhaps the Gripen is a better option than Eurofighters. As for FCAS......?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order (HALCON I & II) so this "instead the Eurofighter is an option" seems just BS coming from the non specialized medias.
FCAS is a long term program that will eventually replace the Eurofighter (not really actually, the FCAS is in such an early stage that it is not clear yet which role it will have) and again I don't understand what kind of option it is since it's got nothing to do with the Eurofighter or the F-35.

The american plane was (and probably still is) the best choice for the Armada to replace their fleet of Harrier IIs, but the spanish government was always reluctant (also being an Airbus shareholder) and the current geopolitical situation makes it quite an easy choice to say "we will not buy f-35" to gain some popularity.
Reality is that Spain never had the money nor the willingness to buy F-35 and that's just a good excuse.

 

[John Fedup]

Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order (HALCON I & II) so this "instead the Eurofighter is an option" seems just BS coming from the non specialized medias.
FCAS is a long term program that will eventually replace the Eurofighter (not really actually, the FCAS is in such an early stage that it is not clear yet which role it will have) and again I don't understand what kind of option it is since it's got nothing to do with the Eurofighter or the F-35.

The american plane was (and probably still is) the best choice for the Armada to replace their fleet of Harrier IIs, but the spanish government was always reluctant (also being an Airbus shareholder) and the current geopolitical situation makes it quite an easy choice to say "we will not buy f-35" to gain some popularity.
Reality is that Spain never had the money nor the willingness to buy F-35 and that's just a good excuse.

Interesting, if Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order, how many more are needed until FCAS or whatever arrives? Was there ever an intention to replace the Harriers with F-35Bs for naval use?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Interesting, if Spain already has 45 EF-2000s on order, how many more are needed until FCAS or whatever arrives? Was there ever an intention to replace the Harriers with F-35Bs for naval use?

Spain originally ordered 73 EFs, then ordered two additional tranches (20+25) in 2022 and 2024.
Some of them are meant to replace F-18s (Spain has about 60 of them, not quite sure how many in active service), but a full EF-2000 fleet would likely require another order of similar size (about 20 planes) to also make up for the earlier jets that at the end of decade will be close to 30 years old.

FCAS is facing serious troubles right now because of Dassault, which has always been a very difficult partner to work with and is basically asking Airbus to put the money and let them do the job.
This is of course unacceptable to Airbus, a considerably larger company than Dassault, and currently the partners are trying to figure out a way to make things work.

The other japanese-european fighter (the GCAP) seems to be going just fine (or at least much better than the FCAS), because the partners and the companies involved are used to work in large programs while Dassault always work alone.
The GCAP however is not really an option for Spain since the country hosts some of the largest Airbus facilities and plants.

The spanish navy wanted to replace their Harrier fleet with the F-35 and there were serious talks about it, also to better integrate with the italian (that is facing the exact same Harrier to F-35b transition) however the spanish government is really reluctant and frankly I dont see any spanish politician buying from Lockheed.

Not buying the F-35 could also mean the end of the spanish naval aviation, which is something that the spanish government at least considered (a naval aviation is extremely expensive).

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Spain originally ordered 73 EFs, then ordered two additional tranches (20+25) in 2022 and 2024.
Some of them are meant to replace F-18s (Spain has about 60 of them, not quite sure how many in active service), but a full EF-2000 fleet would likely require another order of similar size (about 20 planes) to also make up for the earlier jets that at the end of decade will be close to 30 years old.

FCAS is facing serious troubles right now because of Dassault, which has always been a very difficult partner to work with and is basically asking Airbus to put the money and let them do the job.
This is of course unacceptable to Airbus, a considerably larger company than Dassault, and currently the partners are trying to figure out a way to make things work.

The other japanese-european fighter (the GCAP) seems to be going just fine (or at least much better than the FCAS), because the partners and the companies involved are used to work in large programs while Dassault always work alone.
The GCAP however is not really an option for Spain since the country hosts some of the largest Airbus facilities and plants.

The spanish navy wanted to replace their Harrier fleet with the F-35 and there were serious talks about it, also to better integrate with the italian (that is facing the exact same Harrier to F-35b transition) however the spanish government is really reluctant and frankly I dont see any spanish politician buying from Lockheed.

Not buying the F-35 could also mean the end of the spanish naval aviation, which is something that the spanish government at least considered (a naval aviation is extremely expensive).

The only other option is to order a squadron of the version of the FCAS which is suitable for aircraft carriers, and then also order one PANG from France. But looking to the costs, this is highly unlikely.

More likely is the transition from AV-8Bs to UCAVs.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

FCAS and F-35 are by no means alternative to each other, one is the future the other is the present.

So when the media say that "other options instead of the F-35 are Eurofighter and FCAS" they literally talking about the only 2 planes that have nothing to do with the F-35...

I agree UCAVs are probably the most likely option.
I don't see Spain building another carrier, to be honest.

 

[Antipode]

Well, as a Spaniard, I believe the real issues are not money or politics, it is bang for buck. Money wise, Spain has been at the bottom of NATO investment for decades with around 1.28% per year, if memory serves. An increase to 2.1-2-2% will practically double the budget.

The same rationale that discouraged their acquisition for the RAN applies to the Armada, aggravated by our single platform situation VS the two of the RAN. The JC1 is about to undergo maintance and a change of pods, which underlines the point availability wise. If we would have at least two platforms, it could have been a done deal years ago.

Now, is this the end for the Armada's fixed wing? Apparently, not quite so. Besides what UAVs will operate from the JC1, there are announced plans for two new high capacity "LHX", and the very real possibility of a CATOBAR to come by 2040's for the FCAS. The greatest challenge will be crewing.

If (bear with me) those LHX are to be bigger than JC1 and have arresting cables to operate heavy drones and a potential naval Hürjet, the Armada may be actually heading to a great boost.

 

[MARKMILES77]

The U.S. Government Accounting Office has released a report on the F-35, focused on delivery delays and the problems with the upgrade programmes TR-3 and Block 4.
It makes sobering reading!

The Block 4 Upgrade is being downgraded by having capabilities, which were originally planned removed.

Despite removing capabilities Block 4 is getting further and further behind schedule:

And the current engine does not have adequate power and cooling power to allow all of Block 4 to function.

 

[MARKMILES77]

And the cost of the reduced Block 4 is unknown


Full report here:

https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-25-107632.pdf

 

[John Fedup]

Reading this summary explains why LM was not the choice for building the F-47, not that Boeing's performance is any better.

 

[jack412]

Was all bold and increased font size needed?

Of interest to me is, what will be the final cost of updating the RAAF fleet?
Is there a point where we draw the line and say some is cost prohibited. It is better to have a low/high fleet?

So, there were 66 items in block 4, that went to 80 items. They are now splitting what can be done in the time frame and what needs to be delayed. There may be further delays. It is a major, cutting-edge update. As to the responsibility for how the programme goes, there is enough to share around the stakeholders.

GAO: 'Action Needed' to Solve F-35 Block 4 Issues
"Block 4 will now consist of “a subset of the original 66 … capabilities and those added in later years,” the GAO said, but the JPO did not reveal what specific improvements will be included. Some that required an upgrade to the engine will be deferred until the Engine Core Upgrade comes along, circa 2033. Others have been removed because “they … no longer meet warfighter needs.” At one point, Block 4 was said to cover more than 80 discrete improvements

Block 4 now will “have fewer capabilities, will experience schedule delays, and will have unknown costs” until the F-35 Joint Program Office finishes separating Block 4 into a sub-program and completes a new cost estimate, GAO said. Those actions should be complete this fall. ".

 

[76mmGuns]

Choked By China, U.S. Relies On Abandoned French Factory Stockpile To Keep F-35s, Tomahawks Flying

The US is the world’s preeminent military power. At USD 900 billion, Washington spends more on defense than the following nine countries combined, including China, Russia, India, Germany, South Korea, the UK, France, Saudi Arabia, and Japan. The US is also the world’s largest arms exporter...

www.eurasiantimes.com

Sounds pretty serious. Affects a lot of countries. Any comments in this issue?

 

[Hoffy]

Just curious, who owns The Eurasian Times?

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Choked By China, U.S. Relies On Abandoned French Factory Stockpile To Keep F-35s, Tomahawks Flying

The US is the world’s preeminent military power. At USD 900 billion, Washington spends more on defense than the following nine countries combined, including China, Russia, India, Germany, South Korea, the UK, France, Saudi Arabia, and Japan. The US is also the world’s largest arms exporter...

www.eurasiantimes.com

Sounds pretty serious. Affects a lot of countries. Any comments in this issue?

A French factory is reported to produce Samarium, but is primarily mined in China and the US.
Financially, it makes little sense to produce domestically if China sells rare earth minerals for far cheaper. But if China chokes Samarium exports, it does make the case for local production.
Basic rules of economy ensure the Samarium supply disruptions are only temporary.

Also, when it comes to some material shortage in America, please refer to this rule:

 

[John Fedup]

It is unlikely the F-47 will be deployed before the mid-2030s. Thus the only stealth fighter that will be available in reasonable quantities to the US and allies is the F-35. For block 4 to be truly effective, more cooling and power requires a ECU for the F135 P&W engine. However this upgrade does nothing for range enhancement. Although the NGAP program is underway, it is not applicable to the F-35 AFAIK. This was what the cancelled AETP was for. This could have increased the the range specification up to 25-30% for the A version and perhaps the C as well. AETP engines for the B-21 could have been an option as it likely the B-21 uses two F-135 engines.

 

[Terran]

Well F35 serves as and will continue to be the backbone of US and “Global Western” air power for the rest of the century, It should be remembered that F22 is still in the inventory and currently slated for a SLEP overhaul to update it for service well into the next decade. This update is spiraling and testing technology from the F47 as well as adding to the F22 added range, reliability and sensors. Of interest the low drag low observable external tanks which might be made av[ailable on F35 and F47.]

Upgraded F-22 “Raptor 2.0” Details Seen In New Model

A scale model of the new-look F-22 Raptor reveals details of its new stealthy external fuel tanks and underwing infrared sensor pods. A scale model of the new-look F-22 Raptor reveals details of its new stealthy external fuel tanks and underwing infrared sensor pods.

www.twz.com

On the future of the F35 it’s likely to get a new engine down the line however I doubt commonality with B21.
Raider is a subsonic stealth bomber the F135 is optimized for a supersonic stealth fighter. Adaptive Engine Transition Program engines are a program again for Supersonic performance fighters trying to bridge the gap between a supersonic fighter performance and subsonic fuel efficiency. It’s like how some sports coupe have cylinder deactivation so your V8 hot rod can spit fire in a launch boost but can still sip fuel like a lady’s tea on the highway.
It’s more likely that under the hood of B21 are a variant of the Geared Turbofan perhaps the long rumored PW 9000. An Engine optimized for high subsonic speed and efficiency.
Adaptive Engine Transition Program will likely be part of F47 I suspect from early block production.

 

[John Fedup]

Well F35 serves as and will continue to be the backbone of US and “Global Western” air power for the rest of the century, It should be remembered that F22 is still in the inventory and currently slated for a SLEP overhaul to update it for service well into the next decade. This update is spiraling and testing technology from the F47 as well as adding to the F22 added range, reliability and sensors. Of interest the low drag low observable external tanks which might be made av

Upgraded F-22 “Raptor 2.0” Details Seen In New Model

A scale model of the new-look F-22 Raptor reveals details of its new stealthy external fuel tanks and underwing infrared sensor pods. A scale model of the new-look F-22 Raptor reveals details of its new stealthy external fuel tanks and underwing infrared sensor pods.

www.twz.com

On the future of the F35 it’s likely to get a new engine down the line however I doubt commonality with B21.
Raider is a subsonic stealth bomber the F135 is optimized for a supersonic stealth fighter. Adaptive Engine Transition Program engines are a program again for Supersonic performance fighters trying to bridge the gap between a supersonic fighter performance and subsonic fuel efficiency. It’s like how some sports coupe have cylinder deactivation so your V8 hot rod can spit fire in a launch boost but can still sip fuel like a lady’s tea on the highway.
It’s more likely that under the hood of B21 are a variant of the Geared Turbofan perhaps the long rumored PW 9000. An Engine optimized for high subsonic speed and efficiency.
Adaptive Engine Transition Program will likely be part of F47 I suspect from early block production.

I have seen articles articles suggesting some kind of F135 derivative for the B-21 but the points you raise wrt subsonic performance are valid so maybe there is something else under the hood. WRT a new engine for the F-35, why "down the line". GE's AETP for the F-35 seemed to offer much more to making the F-35 a better fighter than the F-135 with a new ECU despite no B version. As for the F-22, t is likely the NGAP will be a smaller engine that would be applicable to the twin-engine F-22 and F-47....and hopefully for a F/A XX.

 

[Terran]

Down the line as the latest tech refresh is being released as we speak it’s going to be a few years before the next major revision of the F35 program unless someone shows up with a deep bank account.