Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[Underway]

In many ways, CAMM fits into a scaled-up CIWS role where LoS is not an issue. More importantly, it has a small active seeker with likely limited ECCM capability over mid-course (command guidance) and semi from a descent radar and C2 system I would have assumed that RNZN would have known about the ESSM II development before the update, which could evolve further into IR seeker as well. Furthermore, I have no assessment on how NZ settled for 20 shots of a small missile v the 32 shot of ESSM, other than cost was driving everthing including rational national defence.

CAMM does fit into a scaled up CIWS role and Canada is using it as such for their CSC program. Its the Close In Air Defence System. But that doesn't negate that CAMM has quite a good max range as well as excellent min range so it can be used as a self defense missile system.

CAMM is also a smaller missile than ESSM II and has less of an impact on ship design.

Funding I am going to assume, bearing in mind this was still a substantial upgrade for RNZN, going from 8x Sea-Sparrow missiles to 20x CAMM might seem to be a worthwhile investment to a funding limited force, particularly 20x active radar guided missiles that can be fired singularly against missiles or aircraft, rather than the more common practice of 2x missiles fired in the case of ESSM.

I was going to write this but couldn't find a source that stated that. Nevertheless, I agree that ESSM usually uses two missiles per engagement. We'll have to see how ESSM 2 is utilized going forward, as that may be a single shot missile as well due to its active seeker head.

Frankly, I think the RNZN has an excellent ship and a well-thought-out upgrade. A perfectly capable patrol frigate and good ASW asset, that can look after itself and plug into an allied task group, and give a good contribution.

 

[Gooey]

Underway, I do not know what a Patrol Frigate is so I accept your assessment.

However, if these 2 bespoke, over-budget, oldish, RNZN war canoes are meant to be our only war-fighting ships until 2045 then the RAN ANZAC upgrade program would have given them more capability and bang.

 

[ngatimozart]

Underway, I do not know what a Patrol Frigate is so I accept your assessment.

However, if these 2 bespoke, over-budget, oldish, RNZN war canoes are meant to be our only war-fighting ships until 2045 then the RAN ANZAC upgrade program would have given them more capability and bang.

A patrol frigate is another name for a GP or general purpose frigate. Who said that the current Anzac class frigates would be in service until 2045? Even the current idiot 120 pollies in Wellington don't make such a claim, so for gawds sake don't go putting ideas into their heads. Our current to war waka are capable but there is room for improvement. Not all of the delays are of the NZG fault as previously stated and there was also the dispute between the two Canadian contractors that we got caught in the middle of. It was lawyers at 20 paces material and is still ongoing. The other item of note, and I posted of it on here a few years back when Te Kaha was due to go over. A NZ company had all the electrical and wiring diagrams stored digitally so that they could just be pulled up in an engineering AutoCAD or similar program. The Kiwi company had gone away from using paper diagrams a few year earlier. So they contacted the Canadian contractors and asked what format they wanted the electrical diagrams in. They were somewhat astounded by the reply; "we do everything in paper, no electronic stuff at all". You gotta wonder.

 

[John Newman]

Of course ESSM Blk II negates that advantage, but ESSM Blk II wasn’t available when this choice had to be made.

Interestingly the RAN recently received it’s first batch of ESSM Blk 2 for integration and testing for the ANZAC class FFH:

Australia Procures ESSM Block 2 Surface to Air Missile - Naval News

The Australian Government announced it is procuring the ESSM Block 2 surface to air missile from Raytheon for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN).

www.navalnews.com

My question is, has the RNZN started and/or completed integration of CAMM to their upgraded frigates? Or is that yet to happen?

Could the Kiwis have selected ESSM Blk 2 if they wanted to?

 

[Stampede]

Interestingly the RAN recently received it’s first batch of ESSM Blk 2 for integration and testing for the ANZAC class FFH:

Australia Procures ESSM Block 2 Surface to Air Missile - Naval News

The Australian Government announced it is procuring the ESSM Block 2 surface to air missile from Raytheon for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN).

www.navalnews.com

My question is, has the RNZN started and/or completed integration of CAMM to their upgraded frigates? Or is that yet to happen?

Could the Kiwis have selected ESSM Blk 2 if they wanted to?

Interested if the upgraded NZ ships still have the Mk 41 VLS, or did they swap that out for the Sea Ceptor System.
Cannot find information to support the later, yet puzzled as to having only 20 missiles in quantity.

Any assistance would be appreciated


Cheers S

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Interested if the upgraded NZ ships still have the Mk 41 VLS, or did they swap that out for the Sea Ceptor System.
Cannot find information to support the later, yet puzzled as to having only 20 missiles in quantity.
Any assistance would be appreciated
Cheers S

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520775212102569985

You can see here that they have the CAMM Mushroom farm where the Mk-1VLS was... the mushroom farm takes up more space but is easier for maintenance and lighter ... the 20 missiles is that is what would fit in in the space left of the VLS ...

 

[ngatimozart]

Interestingly the RAN recently received it’s first batch of ESSM Blk 2 for integration and testing for the ANZAC class FFH:

Australia Procures ESSM Block 2 Surface to Air Missile - Naval News

The Australian Government announced it is procuring the ESSM Block 2 surface to air missile from Raytheon for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN).

www.navalnews.com

My question is, has the RNZN started and/or completed integration of CAMM to their upgraded frigates? Or is that yet to happen?

Could the Kiwis have selected ESSM Blk 2 if they wanted to?

John the FSU upgrade has finished with the Te Mana on her way back from Canada now. Sea Ceptor is fully integrated into the RNZN. She was in San Francisco the other day. The upgrade specifications were locked down in 2014, from memory so ESSM Blk II wouldn't have met the criteria anyway; the criteria being that the capability had to be available and in service or about to be in service with a FVEY partner navy. It was still a paper missile at that stage. Sea Ceptor was in its final trials stage then. The LM ExLS was still under early development so the capsules weren't available for the existing Mk-41 VLS and that's why the they were replaced by the mushroom farm. Now if we desired so, we could add ExLS VLS modules to the frigates because they literally can be bolted on anywhere. Each ExLS has three cells so can take 12 quad packed Sea Ceptors or decoys etc.

 

[Underway]

Each ExLS has three cells so can take 12 quad packed Sea Ceptors or decoys etc.

Great! I assume confirmation of the quad pack showed up eventually. I know that there was some scuttlebutt on this board about them only being able to jam three in the ExLS, but I stopped looking for it after a while.

 

[Stampede]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1520775212102569985

You can see here that they have the CAMM Mushroom farm where the Mk-1VLS was... the mushroom farm takes up more space but is easier for maintenance and lighter ... the 20 missiles is that is what would fit in in the space left of the VLS ...

Great pic. It was what I was looking for - Thanks

There is a lot to like about Sea Ceptor and its light weight launcher.
I must say always thought it was an unusual for the Kiwi's to go down a different path to us by not go with ESSM.
The end result however looks very good.


Cheers S

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

There is a lot to like about Sea Ceptor and its light weight launcher.
I must say always thought it was an unusual for the Kiwi's to go down a different path to us by not go with ESSM.

This has been discussed in depth in this thread.
MoD chose CAMM back in October 2013 so there would have been a mix of timing, cost, and maturity of the programs as well as the less weight. There was also a possibility that high maintenance of the the MK41 VLS compared to the GWS 35 VLS cells (The mushroom farm) hot launch vs cold launch argument. And while I agree 20 missiles in todays world is not many (if any ... there is a song in that somewhere) but it is a step up from only having 8 Sea Sparrows.

 

[Gooey]

Gents my frustrations may have blinded me to the realities of this 2013 decision. They are certainly handsome and useful ships, for which we must be grateful! I apologies if my attempt at critique is boarding into be objectionable.

That being said, I spent the last 4 years of my RAAF service better understanding the Australian CEA Tech systems and it was a real disappointment seeing NZ not take that option. AESA is a radar revolution-possibly, I overstate that, but to this guy it is. The lack of other weapons, also!

The 2045 out of service date I’ll attempt to find, but I understood was part of the delay in $20b investments announced by MIA last year.

However, I thank Nga for War Waka as this is both culturally cool and still digging at all things senior service.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

2035 not 2045 maybe I have never seen any suggestions otherwise from either party?

 

[recce.k1]

DCP19 is probably the best current authoritative source (ignoring the current Administrations wishy-washy statements on the Minister of Finance reassessing timetables of which nothing has been stated publicly).

Extending the life of the ANZAC Frigates (page 15)

92. To realise the full value of these upgrades, the frigates’ expected service life will be extended past 2030. This decision has been supported by independent analysis of the vessels, which has demonstrated that they are supportable for a greater period of time than previously anticipated.

ANZAC Frigate life extension (page 32)

190. The major upgrades currently being undertaken on the ANZAC frigates combat systems will not be fully completed until 2023. In order to maximise the value of these upgrades, the service lives of the ANZAC frigates will be extended until after 2030. To support this life extension additional work will be completed on the vessels, including an enhanced maintenance and repair package to ensure appropriate upkeep until the end of the ships’ service lives.

191. Delaying the replacement of the frigates improves the affordability of the Defence Capability Plan 2019 by de-conflicting the replacement of the most significant Defence capabilities

Investment decisions after 2030 (page 34)

Future Surface combatant

204. The ANZAC Frigates are scheduled to be replaced with modern surface combatants relevant to New Zealand’s prevailing strategic environment in the mid-2030s. Introduction of the new ships will be phased with the withdrawal from service of the existing ANZAC frigates.

Also in relation to the Frigates:

207.2 Upgrade to the Phalanx Close-In Weapons system on board the ANZAC frigates in the early 2020s;

207.3 Replacement of the ship-launched torpedo on board the ANZAC frigates;

207.4 Upgrades to the current fleet of SH-2G(I) Seasprite helicopters, addressing hardware and software obsolescence of aircraft components, to ensure they are fit for purpose for the remainder of their service lives;

So talking about the Seasprites:

Maritime Helicopter Replacement (page 33)

199. The eight existing Seasprite SH-2G(I), the last of their type, will reach the end of their service lives in the late 2020s. A new fleet of maritime helicopters will be acquired in order to support the naval patrol, sealift and combat capabilities.

200. Maritime helicopters offer surveillance, air transport and combat capabilities. Initial thinking on the replacement helicopters will need to determine the primary role of the aircraft, to ensure they are appropriately suited to complement planned replacements for the patrol, sealift and combat capabilities.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2020
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost:
More than $1b

Isn't the 2045 date in relation to the last of the RAN's ANZAC's (covered in the RAN thread) as HMAS Perth was laid down in 2003 and commissioned in 2006? NZ's were commissioned in 1997 and 1999.

 

[RetirementIsGood]

Future Surface combatant

204. The ANZAC Frigates are scheduled to be replaced with modern surface combatants relevant to New Zealand’s prevailing strategic environment in the mid-2030s. Introduction of the new ships will be phased with the withdrawal from service of the existing ANZAC frigates.

Suppose we assume that "replaced ... in the mid-2030s" means that the In Service Date of the first of the replacements is 2035, and that the replacement is pretty much an off-the-shelf design, what lead times does that suggest?
I.E when would the Industry engagement phase officially start, and when would the Request for Tenders be likely to go out?

My uninformed WAG is that ISD 2035 implies an order in 2029, and an RFP in 2028, so formal Industry Engagement from 2025.
I suspect that politicians (of whichever party) would rather push the decision out past the election after next, so late in 2026 or in 2027, which would fit my WAG timetable.

What do those with more direct knowledge think?

 

[ASSAIL]

My concern for the RNZN Anzac upgrades is missile resupply.
The majority of NZ operations will be based in the Indo Pacific where the only other SeaCeptor user is Canada and then only the Pacific half of her fleet.
Resupply is no easy feat as the RAN discovered when operation a Daring as part of the US SeventhFleet duringbVietnam and a total inconvenience when compared with the ease experienced by the CFAs
The logistic planning and effort was enormous.
Let’s just hope that the war stocks are plentiful and every time the war wakas brawl Aotearoa is close by.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

where the only other SeaCeptor user is Canada

Depends what side Chile decides to be on... and same will go with Brazil when they finish building their frigates which probably be completed before Canada's type 26's... just saying Canada is not the only other navy using camm

 

[ngatimozart]

Depends what side Chile decides to be on... and same will go with Brazil when they finish building their frigates which probably be completed before Canada's type 26's... just saying Canada is not the only other navy using camm

Chile has gone with Sea Ceptor Work continues on Chilean Type 23 frigate upgrade programme (janes.com) as has Brazil MBDA’s Received New Sea Ceptor Order For The Brazilian Navy - Naval News. Didn't know that Chile has gone with the LMC CMS330 so that's three navies using it now, RCN, RNZN & Chilean Navy.

My concern for the RNZN Anzac upgrades is missile resupply.
The majority of NZ operations will be based in the Indo Pacific where the only other SeaCeptor user is Canada and then only the Pacific half of her fleet.
Resupply is no easy feat as the RAN discovered when operation a Daring as part of the US SeventhFleet duringbVietnam and a total inconvenience when compared with the ease experienced by the CFAs
The logistic planning and effort was enormous.
Let’s just hope that the war stocks are plentiful and every time the war wakas brawl Aotearoa is close by.

There is that, but the Chileans are using it now. Also the LMC CMS 330 already has ESSM integrated into and can't do it on the RNZN Anzacs at the moment but on their replacements should be able to use the ESSM Blk II if needs be.

 

[Underway]

Chile has gone with Sea Ceptor Work continues on Chilean Type 23 frigate upgrade programme (janes.com) as has Brazil MBDA’s Received New Sea Ceptor Order For The Brazilian Navy - Naval News. Didn't know that Chile has gone with the LMC CMS330 so that's three navies using it now, RCN, RNZN & Chilean Navy.

CMS 300 baseline was the Halifax Class, the Type 23 and ANZAC versions are both separate branches of the baseline that have particularization to what RNZN and Chilie wanted. The latest branch is the JSS which, as it has no true effectors, has a stripped-down version of the current Halifax Class.

They are all evolving/upgrading away from the baseline HFX version because the weapons/sensors etc... are all different. But in the process it keeps adding to LMC's library of solutions. Probably one of the reasons the Sea Ceptor was a viable option for the CIADS on CSC. LMC could point to it as a low-risk already integrated into CMS 330 solution.

 

[Todjaeger]

Depends what side Chile decides to be on... and same will go with Brazil when they finish building their frigates which probably be completed before Canada's type 26's... just saying Canada is not the only other navy using camm

Whether Brazil selects Sea Ceptor or not does not really matter much, or even Chile's selection, unless/until those navies begin to routinely deploy their respective vessels to areas that the RNZN will deploy alongside. Even with the RCN having a presence in the N. Pacific, that still can be a very long and potentially tenuous supply line. In some respects, the RNZN might find resupply from the RN a more available option.

 

[Gooey]

And combined training systems, common TTPs, industrial support, economy of scale of 10 common class war wakas, ability to cross deck peps, and common communications.

It’s a q, why RAN & RNZN didn’t work together more closely?