Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Mikeymike]

The RAN seems to be suddenly coming out heavy in favour of Unmanned systems with another one I hadn't heard of before.

TAS and RAN reveal 'underwater Loyal Wingman' project - Australian Defence Magazine

Interestingly the article says its is one of three programs underway for an Australian AUV capability. Glad they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

As far as I know there is this one, the one with Anduril. Does anyone know what the third one is?

Edit: Have now watched the video from Indo-Pacific 2022 and believe the third one could be the Speartooth mentioned in the video above

 

[swerve]

Fair question.
Depends on the time frame for the JSS project.
The time and cost to construct a hanger
Plus need.

My personal opinion is the more aviation you can get to sea the better.
Navy will have 36 Seahawks later this decade

I would speculate that HMAS Choules has potential space for a hanger to accommodate 2 to 3 aircraft and that such a structure would not be to problematic, expensive or time consuming to add.
The Brits intend to do the same on one of their Bay Class so I'd guess the engineering is feasible.

The JSS Project looks a very promising concept; but at this stage I cannot realistically see a commissioned JSS ship till the late 30's.

If anything I'd like the Brits to sell us another Bay Class to add to the fleet.

Cheers S

I'm sure that Damen would happily build you something very similar. It's basically their design.

 

[Redlands18]

I'm sure that Damen would happily build you something very similar. It's basically their design.

We have had JSS designs from Navantia and now BMT, I'm sure Damen would be working on something based on the Karel Doorman, we just haven't seen anything yet.

 

[alexsa]

Just finished watching, a few interesting things in there:

Firstly that the LOTE program for the Collins Class boats will be done in the timeframe of an FCD, so 2 years for each boat ! Would be interesting to see what we are actually doing for the LOTE ?

I know a lot of that would be what we would normally do and replace during a normal FCD, but 2 years (planned) is pretty good going !

Secondly, where the hell did Speartooth come from did I miss something or did they keep that one nice and quiet or what !! impressive they are at prototype stage !!

Home - C2 Robotics Pty Ltd

C2 Robotics specialises in the rapid development of cutting edge robotics and autonomous systems for Defence applications across the maritime, land and air

c2robotics.com.au

And finally the OCIUS USV's look like some potential as well, sounds like some good backing there to, the fact that Thales has miniaturised their towed sonar arrays speaks volumes for them to go through that development path. Other potential uses as well, they said they have 4 operating out of Broome on Border Force "Applications"

OCIUS - Satellites of the Sea | OCIUS

OCIUS Technology's Uncrewed Surface Vessels (USVs) provide innovative autonomous solutions for persistent maritime surveillance

ocius.com.au

Not bad for day one

In my previous job I was introduced to a USV concept fitted with a towed array. A couple would fit in a standard 20’ Container. The intent was that this would be deployed by a mother ship (read the Hunter …. Or an OPV for uncontested waters) to increase the sensor footprint.

If these can be integrated into the Multistatic system then a couple of Hunters, embarked helps and USV’s launched from the Multi-mission bay could sanitised a lot of area.

The large UUV would be exceptional for intelligence gathering where the scope and nature of the mission is known.

A good place to be investing money.

 

[Going Boeing]

The RAN seems to be suddenly coming out heavy in favour of Unmanned systems with another one I hadn't heard of before.

TAS and RAN reveal 'underwater Loyal Wingman' project - Australian Defence Magazine

Interestingly the article says its is one of three programs underway for an Australian AUV capability. Glad they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

As far as I know there is this one, the one with Anduril. Does anyone know what the third one is?

It would be interesting to see if the third one is of the dimensions to permit being stowed in a Virginia Payload Tube - that would give an indication of which SSN the RAN will select.

 

[hauritz]

The RAN seems to be suddenly coming out heavy in favour of Unmanned systems with another one I hadn't heard of before.

TAS and RAN reveal 'underwater Loyal Wingman' project - Australian Defence Magazine

Interestingly the article says its is one of three programs underway for an Australian AUV capability. Glad they are not putting all eggs in one basket.

As far as I know there is this one, the one with Anduril. Does anyone know what the third one is?

Edit: Have now watched the video from Indo-Pacific 2022 and believe the third one could be the Speartooth mentioned in the video above

The most complex part of the Loyal Wingman project will be the AI and I expect that it is a transferable technology. AUVs could be the next step but it will eventually end up in a wide variety of platforms. I expect we will eventually see AI controlled missiles, torpedoes, sea mines, bombs and other weapons.

Land vehicles will be the biggest challenge but they would be on the list as well.

Perhaps one of the first lessons learned from the Ukraine/Russian conflict is just how disruptive even comparatively simple automated drones can be. The prospect of dealing with drones that have full situational awareness could be a game changer.

 

[hauritz]

Australia considering next-generation US and UK designs for nuclear submarines | The Strategist

Australia is involved in complex negotiations to ensure that its plan to acquire eight nuclear-powered submarines doesn’t weaken the international non-proliferation regime. The chief of the Royal Australian Navy’s nuclear-powered submarine taskforce, Vice Admiral Jonathan ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

There is a suggestion that has not been denied by the chief of the Royal Australian Navy’s nuclear-powered submarine taskforce, Vice Admiral Jonathan Mead, that Australia might consider the next generation offerings from the US and UK. It also seems unlikely that Australia will be getting secondhand nukes but would rather just train on US or British Nukes instead.

Personally I have never really seen secondhand SSNs as being a particularly attractive option anyway. I think that training directly with the USN or RN does mean that we will almost definitely have a capability gap between when the Collins class starts to retire and the new SSNs come on line. For starters the crew availability for Australian boats could be almost non-existent with a large proportion of Australia's submariners being deployed on US or UK submarines.

It would take several years to bring a submarine crew up to speed on the new nukes. If Australia is to have a crew ready to go for the first of the new submarines they would need to either increase the number of crews available for submarines or start retiring the Collins class years ahead of when the first of the new nukes will be delivered.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Based on your article there's probably been 10,000+ undergrad and postgrad physics majors in the time frame you first described.

Colour me sceptical. I see evidence the pipeline is broken and or non existent.

If we were so prolific we wouldn't be seeing the shortages we are currently seeing for graduates in various areas (of which teaching is a clear and obvious one, recognised globally, . We would have a problem of unemployed nuclear physicists filling up centrelink. They would be piled up chest height. Either we are underestimating the demand, or over estimating the output (say by grouping or by skill set).

I guess I am confused.

I just figured that Australia would be looking at setting up its own Nuclear power school (US) or Nuclear department (UK) for enlisted and officers. Then we would be priming that with people involved in the sub program and polinating universities with a lot existing people getting into nuclear courses. Putting some of our vast spare submarine crews through US and UK training, then having some of those seconded to US and UK submarines. We also need to be putting many south Australians through the same training as they will be building and maintaining them. I don't see that seemingly happening.

I also read that the batteries will be replaced/upgraded and, as part of package B, they are looking at replacing the periscopes with optronic masts.

I wonder what is left of the original sub with package b.

 

[Volkodav]

Colour me sceptical. I see evidence the pipeline is broken and or non existent.

If we were so prolific we wouldn't be seeing the shortages we are currently seeing for graduates in various areas (of which teaching is a clear and obvious one, recognised globally, . We would have a problem of unemployed nuclear physicists filling up centrelink. They would be piled up chest height. Either we are underestimating the demand, or over estimating the output (say by grouping or by skill set).

I guess I am confused.

I just figured that Australia would be looking at setting up its own Nuclear power school (US) or Nuclear department (UK) for enlisted and officers. Then we would be priming that with people involved in the sub program and polinating universities with a lot existing people getting into nuclear courses. Putting some of our vast spare submarine crews through US and UK training, then having some of those seconded to US and UK submarines. We also need to be putting many south Australians through the same training as they will be building and maintaining them. I don't see that seemingly happening.



I wonder what is left of the original sub with package b.

Part of the problem is we keep moving the goal posts. It goes from no qualification required, just on the job experience, to a non related degree with no experience, to a degree that didn't exist when the existing workforce learnt the job.

No RPL but lots of jumping through hoops and paying money to private organisations to say you know what you know.

 

[vonnoobie]

With how much work apperantly will be going into the Collins class LOTE and the increased chance that we may run into a capability gap if decision is made to go with the newest gen British or US boats would it be worthwhile after or towards tail end of the LOTE tacking on a few new builds to reduce capability gap risk?

I know it is very likely a no no to even bring it up but if it's new gen boats and not existing types then the time frame may bugger up even more so if for whatever reason those programs are delayed. May be more feasible to order extra units of what ever equipment we will be installing not to mention maintain and even expand the workforce that will be built up during the LOTE then flow them across to the SSN project once we know that is all good to go.

 

[Going Boeing]

The most complex part of the Loyal Wingman project will be the AI and I expect that it is a transferable technology. AUVs could be the next step but it will eventually end up in a wide variety of platforms. I expect we will eventually see AI controlled missiles, torpedoes, sea mines, bombs and other weapons.

Land vehicles will be the biggest challenge but they would be on the list as well.

Perhaps one of the first lessons learned from the Ukraine/Russian conflict is just how disruptive even comparatively simple automated drones can be. The prospect of dealing with drones that have full situational awareness could be a game changer.

The AI software for Ghost Bat/Loyal Wingman is being developed on an instrumented range at Cloncurry airport in Queensland, I’m sure that much of the computer code can be translated into land and marine environments.

Boeing Autonomous Artificial Intelligence development

The Australian Artificial Intelligence development

 

[aussienscale]

The following has been published in a few articles:
Collins boats upgraded under the planned Life-of-Type Extension (LOTE) program will be fitted with German MTU 4000-series diesel engines, Jeumont and Schneider combined systems with a permanent magnet AC motor, and Wartsila Euroatlas power conversion and distribution systems. The MTU diesels will replace the original Swedish Hedemora diesel engines. These components were planned to be installed on the Attack class.

I also read that the batteries will be replaced/upgraded and, as part of package B, they are looking at replacing the periscopes with optronic masts.

Australian Defence Collins Class LOTE

Australian Defence Penske MTU4000

Yep know that, let me clarify, I mean the dive cycles the pressure hulls have been through, what they can do to mitigate that and cycling it left over the perceived extension of the boats. The above is not far off what you could expect during FCD's depending on the boat, age and intended life.

Cheers

 

[Takao]

The RAN seems to be suddenly coming out heavy in favour of Unmanned systems with another one I hadn't heard of before.

Not a dig at you @Mikeymike , but using your comment for a broader point (and a sly dig at some of the "strategic experts").

It's not sudden. There is significant interest, investment and work in uncrewed platforms across the ADO. It's just that it doesn't need to be all released to the public right now. ASPI and some people on here tend to forget - the FSP being read here is the unclassified edition. It can be frustrating, as there are points where we are literally world leaders in specific capabilities. But...it's the nature of the business. And underwater warfare is super more sensitive and secretive than anything else.

 

[Mikeymike]

Not a dig at you @Mikeymike , but using your comment for a broader point (and a sly dig at some of the "strategic experts").

No worries, not taken as a dig.

My comment was mainly around how previously I always saw the RAN as being interested but more standoffish around Underwater unmanned systems, at least compared to their programs and experiments with unmanned surface and UAV systems. I seemed to have the impression they would rather wait and follow allies around underwater systems than invest in their own developmental versions. Their use in mine warfare is probably the one exception to this as that seems to be a focus of many of the underwater systems I have seen them looking at historically.

That view has changed with all three programs mentioned above being publicly announced in the last 2 weeks, with some of them already being developed and under contract for months showing that this is not the case.

In an entirely unrelated topic, are any surface vessels likely to be modified to be able to lay Mines, thinking maybe the Mine warfare variants of Arafura that are planned to replace the Huons?

I know there are plans for "Smart Mines" to be developed under Sea 2000 and my understanding is currently the only capability with minelaying is the Collins. Are there any plans to expand the use of minelaying across the surface fleet, or potentially deployed by aircraft?

 

[Ananda]

Video from Xavier on day two of Indo Pacific 2022. I do like the Navantia futuristic Destroyer concept.

 

[Stampede]

Video from Xavier on day two of Indo Pacific 2022. I do like the Navantia futuristic Destroyer concept.

The Arafura Class gets a mention as does a slightly larger offering from NVL Group ( Lurssen ) for the Belgian navy.
Called a Multipurpose Modular Patrol Vessel (MMPV) it appears to be a variation of NVL's OPV 90.

NVL Group launches construction of first new Bulgarian MMPV

German shipbuilder NVL Group (formerly Lürssen Werft) held a steel cutting ceremony for the first of two Multipurpose Modular Patrol Vessels (MMPVs) on order for the...

www.janes.com

.

From Janes Defence Dec 2021


Nice looking vessel


Cheers S

 

[spoz]

Yep, it’s a variation of the OPV 90; and it’s Bulgarian not the Belgian Navy. Autocorrect I suspect!

But let’s not start the “up gun the Arafuras” again; this ship is half as big again (the displacement of a Type 12) and with a very different internal arrangement.

 

[ddxx]

From my perspective, the big downside of the OPV-90 (and derivatives) is the design appears to require a core crew of 86.

At that number, I think it's fair to say you're better off looking at a modern mid-sized frigate design with similar core crew levels.

With a crew of 40, Arafura/OPV-80 strikes a good sweet spot for a flexible OPV/Corvette sized ship.

 

[DDG38]

Part 1 of Peter Hartcher's (SMH) piece on the AUKUS deal, some interesting background on how the SSN deal came about :
Radioactive: Inside the top-secret AUKUS subs deal

 

[Stampede]

Yep, it’s a variation of the OPV 90; and it’s Bulgarian not the Belgian Navy. Autocorrect I suspect!

But let’s not start the “up gun the Arafuras” again; this ship is half as big again (the displacement of a Type 12) and with a very different internal arrangement.

Yes Bulgarian - late night post and not checking.......More auto idiot than rather than Autocorrect - but thanks for the out!

Interestingly the Brits went up in size 10 m with their second batch of OPV's to 90m in length.
Not up armed by any significance, the extra size afforded increased endurance, accommodation spaces and speed.
This I assume is in recognition that 80 m was not adequate for the intended tasks at hand


An additional appeal of the OPV 90's size is it's ability to have a dedicated flight deck and hanger.
The Bulgarian OPV is obviously of a proven design from the same Lurrsen family of Vessels the Arafura Class is based.
There should not be to much rework to make it work for the RAN
As to crewing, the larger vessel without the weapons fit out,would I suggest have a crew size not dissimilar similar to our planned OPV 80.
The big difference is accommodation flexibility.
Increased hotel services for an embarked flight crew when needed or other specialised personnel over and above the core crew compliment.
I can see Army utilizing these spaces.
The Hanger would probably be utilised for UAV's most of the time meaning the hanger could also be utilized as a multi mission bay.

All in all a lot to like and suggest would not be too problematic upgrading to this size for the last 6 to 8 of the current build schedule of 20.
Steel is cheep and air is free and all that.


Cheers S