Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Volkodav]

There are quite a few misconceptions here about shipbuilding.

It takes a long time to build, or even upgrade facilities, even longer to train workforces.

The more work, i.e. outfit, activation and testing you do during construction, the more efficient the building process, the more work you leave until after consolidation, the less efficient the build.

IMO Cockatoo should have been upgraded instead Williamstown, but that didn't happen. Williamstown should have been given sufficient work instead of moving it to Adelaide, but that didn't happen. Whether people like it or not the premier yard is now in Adelaide, as is the best workforce, moving shipbuilding anywhere else is just repeating the mistakes of the past.

The government deliberately slipped construction of the AWD for short term economic reasons. This allowed them to move the various teams from one ship to the next instead of having the multiple teams initially planned working on multiple ships concurrently. i.e. fewer team were formed, fewer workers were hired and trained, and then many were made redundant. Once the baseline was set (a navantia issue) five ships could probably have been constructed in the time it took to build three, had the original workforce plan been followed.

 

[ddxx]

Defence partners with Anduril on large Australian AUVs - Australian Defence Magazine

Pretty rapid schedule too, three production ready prototypes will be designed and built in Australia over three years to lay the foundation for a XLAUV fleet.

I do wonder how long it’ll be before Navy’s simply classify such submarines as SSKs or ‘SSAs’. Phantom or Vampire class would be rather fitting

 

[alexsa]

Defence partners with Anduril on large Australian AUVs - Australian Defence Magazine

Pretty rapid schedule too, three production ready prototypes will be designed and built in Australia over three years to lay the foundation for a XLAUV fleet.

I do wonder how long it’ll be before Navy’s simply classify such submarines as SSKs or ‘SSAs’. Phantom or Vampire class would be rather fitting

While the exact length of the the Anduril is not provided (their current product is 4.5m in length) it may be similar to the Orca ELUUV is just 16m in length with a capacity of around 8 tonnes. This is a large AUV but these are not submarines. I expect they will continue to use the AUV or UUV acronym. I doubt the navy will be giving them names.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The easiest to regenerate would be Williamstown but even that will be a long term effort and the yard is too small for the current generation of ships

I dunno, last time I snuck through there its pretty broken up. How many ship building jobs are there in Melb these days, AFAIK the work force has moved out.

Forgacs Newcastle/Tomago facilities are still there and owned by Civmec and AFAIK still does the odd job. I reckon if you gave them a plan of work, they could fire it up fairly easily. There is still ship work being done around Newcastle (some commercial and lots of recreational) and Civmec has their WA yard to pollinate expertise. There are a lot of sub contractors up there around that industry, cablers, radar, sonar, mechanic, mec serv, all those contractors you need for an ecosystem. Mostly focused on smaller stuff, but they are there. Its close enough to sydney, that it can branch off any suppliers down there.

Forgacs did build ships up to 8,000t in Aurora Australis.

I guess with Civmec it would be internal, if they wanted to shift some work to the east coast to free up the west coast for some work. You wouldn't have to break contracts and reneg the entire deal. I would imagine Tomago would be more about block work than final assembly, but I guess is one of those questions about latency.

NSW gov is getting birdon in Port Maq to build new ferries apparently.

Minister wants to build new ferries in NSW

The NSW Government will buck a recent trend of overseas shipbuilding with two new $10 million firefighting vessels to be produced in the state.

www.smh.com.au

 

[Volkodav]

I dunno, last time I snuck through there its pretty broken up. How many ship building jobs are there in Melb these days, AFAIK the work force has moved out.

Forgacs Newcastle/Tomago facilities are still there and owned by Civmec and AFAIK still does the odd job. I reckon if you gave them a plan of work, they could fire it up fairly easily. There is still ship work being done around Newcastle (some commercial and lots of recreational) and Civmec has their WA yard to pollinate expertise. There are a lot of sub contractors up there around that industry, cablers, radar, sonar, mechanic, mec serv, all those contractors you need for an ecosystem. Mostly focused on smaller stuff, but they are there. Its close enough to sydney, that it can branch off any suppliers down there.

Forgacs did build ships up to 8,000t in Aurora Australis.

I guess with Civmec it would be internal, if they wanted to shift some work to the east coast to free up the west coast for some work. You wouldn't have to break contracts and reneg the entire deal. I would imagine Tomago would be more about block work than final assembly, but I guess is one of those questions about latency.

NSW gov is getting birdon in Port Maq to build new ferries apparently.

Minister wants to build new ferries in NSW

The NSW Government will buck a recent trend of overseas shipbuilding with two new $10 million firefighting vessels to be produced in the state.

www.smh.com.au

My understanding is CIVMEC at Henderson can build up to frigate size quite easily, i.e. ANZAC or Type31. With a couple of OPVs under their belts they will be competent at installing the 9LV interfaces as well.

There is no need for extra yards, what we have, when up to speed, will be well and truely capable of building more than we can crew.

If it's deemed necessary to arm the Arafuras rather than speed up the Hunters or build additional Hobart's, maybe someone should do a cost benefit analysis on switching to building a modified K130 with RAN systems instead of the later tranches of OPVs. I suggest this only due to the Lurssen involvement in the OPVs and K130s, the demonstrated flexibility of the K130 to be modified as it was for the Israelis making it the best quick option for an actual balanced warship as opposed to a sexed up patrol vessel.

That said, current policy is not to arm the Arafuras, not to build an interim frigate or submarine, and nor to accelerate the Hunter.

 

[hauritz]

Defence partners with Anduril on large Australian AUVs - Australian Defence Magazine

Pretty rapid schedule too, three production ready prototypes will be designed and built in Australia over three years to lay the foundation for a XLAUV fleet.

I do wonder how long it’ll be before Navy’s simply classify such submarines as SSKs or ‘SSAs’. Phantom or Vampire class would be rather fitting

I always assumed that Australia would eventually look at XL-AUVs but I assumed that they might go with ORCA. Perhaps defence wanted something over which they could have the proprietary rights. XL-AUVs might take at least some of the load off the Collins fleet.

 

[cdxbow]

Defence partners with Anduril on large Australian AUVs - Australian Defence Magazine

Great news. The founder of the company is Palmer Luckey, which doesn't take much to see this as a lucky hand. He is the developer of Oculus Rift, one of the first VR sets. This decision by the ADF really mirrors the Loyal Wingman program. Smaller agile groups doing advanced developments rapidly. Anduril are also responsible for the USAF Advanced Battle Management Systems. Pretty impressive company to partner with.

 

[Going Boeing]

While the exact length of the the Anduril is not provided (their current product is 4.5m in length) it may be similar to the Orca ELUUV is just 16m in length with a capacity of around 8 tonnes. This is a large AUV but these are not submarines. I expect they will continue to use the AUV or UUV acronym. I doubt the navy will be giving them names.

It has been stated that It is planned to have flexibility in the type of payloads carried in the new Virginia Payload Tubes, including UUV’s - I suspect that Australian AUV will be too large to fit in the VPT’s diameter of 2.2m (87”).

USNI Virginia Payload Tubes

 

[StingrayOZ]

My understanding is CIVMEC at Henderson can build up to frigate size quite easily, i.e. ANZAC or Type31. With a couple of OPVs under their belts they will be competent at installing the 9LV interfaces as well.

There is no need for extra yards, what we have, when up to speed, will be well and truely capable of building more than we can crew.

If it's deemed necessary to arm the Arafuras rather than speed up the Hunters or build additional Hobart's, maybe someone should do a cost benefit analysis on switching to building a modified K130 with RAN systems instead of the later tranches of OPVs. I suggest this only due to the Lurssen involvement in the OPVs and K130s, the demonstrated flexibility of the K130 to be modified as it was for the Israelis making it the best quick option for an actual balanced warship as opposed to a sexed up patrol vessel.

That said, current policy is not to arm the Arafuras, not to build an interim frigate or submarine, and nor to accelerate the Hunter.

Just wartime speculation of available resources. There is a bit of latent capability available.

There was some concern about Henderson completely fitting out a destroyer or frigate, they are currently more biased and focused on shaping and welding steel. I suspect they will be pretty setup in that space after the first few OPV go through.

 

[Volkodav]

Just wartime speculation of available resources. There is a bit of latent capability available.

There was some concern about Henderson completely fitting out a destroyer or frigate, they are currently more biased and focused on shaping and welding steel. I suspect they will be pretty setup in that space after the first few OPV go through.

BAE are in Henderson and that's where they have done, and continue to do the ANZAC upgrades.

Just like Raytheon were at Osborne working on AWD BAE and SAAB could easily work with CIVMEC.

 

[ddxx]

I think Civmec investing in their own four lane main hall says that they're pretty interested in future growth in the shipbuilding realm.

Two large surface combatant lanes in the centre, and two small surface combatant lanes either side.

 

[ADMk2]

Latest @DTR Magazine is reporting RAN has selected the Rafael Typhoon Mk.30C remote weapon station utilising a 30mm Mk.44 Bushmaster gun as it’s secondary gun system for the Hunter Class frigates. Rafael is also confirmed to be pitching this weapon for RAN’s upcoming Arafura main gun replacement RFI, due to be released soon (ish, perhaps…)

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Typhoon-Mk-30c-1.pdf

Rafael is pitching this weapon for Arafura and proposing a side-mounted gun / missile configuration with a pair of Spike ER missiles, in order to push out the engagement zone for incoming fast attack craft out to 10k. Such a configuration, particularly if air-bursting munitions were chosen for the 30mm gun, would likely also provide some defensive capability against helicopters, perhaps MPA’s and UAS if they were silly, or careless enough to come within range… I know it is Rafael pitching this, but I wonder if a Mk.30C / Hellfire option, might not be more attractive to RAN?

(@dtr is behind a paywall these days, but the proposed gun / missile Mk.30C configuration is viewable on the front of the magazine).

Home - Defence Technology Review

IN THIS ISSUE ACCESS CURRENT ISSUE SIGN UP FOR YOUR FREE SUBSCRIPTION TO DTR NEWS Redback prototypes Hanwha is building Redback IFV prototypes for testing ahead of the Land 400 Phase 3 production vehicles. Read the full article NEWS SSN-AUKUS progress The design, build and sustainment partners...

dtrmagazine.com

 

[aussienscale]

Latest @DTR Magazine is reporting RAN has selected the Rafael Typhoon Mk.30C remote weapon station utilising a 30mm Mk.44 Bushmaster gun as it’s secondary gun system for the Hunter Class frigates. Rafael is also confirmed to be pitching this weapon for RAN’s upcoming Arafura main gun replacement RFI, due to be released soon (ish, perhaps…)

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Typhoon-Mk-30c-1.pdf

Rafael is pitching this weapon for Arafura and proposing a side-mounted gun / missile configuration with a pair of Spike ER missiles, in order to push out the engagement zone for incoming fast attack craft out to 10k. Such a configuration, particularly if air-bursting munitions were chosen for the 30mm gun, would likely also provide some defensive capability against helicopters, perhaps MPA’s and UAS if they were silly, or careless enough to come within range… I know it is Rafael pitching this, but I wonder if a Mk.30C / Hellfire option, might not be more attractive to RAN?

(@dtr is behind a paywall these days, but the proposed gun / missile Mk.30C configuration is viewable on the front of the magazine).

Home - Defence Technology Review

IN THIS ISSUE ACCESS CURRENT ISSUE SIGN UP FOR YOUR FREE SUBSCRIPTION TO DTR NEWS Redback prototypes Hanwha is building Redback IFV prototypes for testing ahead of the Land 400 Phase 3 production vehicles. Read the full article NEWS SSN-AUKUS progress The design, build and sustainment partners...

dtrmagazine.com

Good choice IMO, but a good solution for the Arafura's too, found a few links below:

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Typhoon-Mk-30c-1.pdf

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TYPHOON_Mk30c.pdf

https://www.rafael.co.il/worlds/naval/spike-eo-naval-tactical-missiles/

https://www.rafael.co.il/worlds/naval/naval-eo/

Cheers

 

[Going Boeing]

Latest @DTR Magazine is reporting RAN has selected the Rafael Typhoon Mk.30C remote weapon station utilising a 30mm Mk.44 Bushmaster gun as it’s secondary gun system for the Hunter Class frigates. Rafael is also confirmed to be pitching this weapon for RAN’s upcoming Arafura main gun replacement RFI, due to be released soon (ish, perhaps…)

https://www.rafael.co.il/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Typhoon-Mk-30c-1.pdf

Rafael is pitching this weapon for Arafura and proposing a side-mounted gun / missile configuration with a pair of Spike ER missiles, in order to push out the engagement zone for incoming fast attack craft out to 10k. Such a configuration, particularly if air-bursting munitions were chosen for the 30mm gun, would likely also provide some defensive capability against helicopters, perhaps MPA’s and UAS if they were silly, or careless enough to come within range… I know it is Rafael pitching this, but I wonder if a Mk.30C / Hellfire option, might not be more attractive to RAN?

(@dtr is behind a paywall these days, but the proposed gun / missile Mk.30C configuration is viewable on the front of the magazine).

Home - Defence Technology Review

IN THIS ISSUE ACCESS CURRENT ISSUE SIGN UP FOR YOUR FREE SUBSCRIPTION TO DTR NEWS Redback prototypes Hanwha is building Redback IFV prototypes for testing ahead of the Land 400 Phase 3 production vehicles. Read the full article NEWS SSN-AUKUS progress The design, build and sustainment partners...

dtrmagazine.com

The combination of the Typhoon 30mm gun with Spike ER missiles would give some teeth to the layered defence of the Hunters. There may be some commonality between the RAN’s Spike ER and the Spike LR2 missiles being fitted to the Army’s Boxer vehicle so there would be synergies for the ADF support of the missiles.

Spike selected for Army Boxer vehicles

Spike ER2

Spike LR2

Pics of a Hunter model courtesy of turbosquid.com

 

[76mmGuns]

Good question.

@76mmGuns

You have been around a while and know better than this. So a good question .... and?

alexsa

Apologies. You're right.

I thought it was a good point to ask- what can we build right now, if a conflict broke out.
Currently it's just Arafura's and Cape Classes, I think

But it's tricky. When people suggest/demand upgunning the OPV Ararfura Class, they essentially are demanding a corvette, like the German K130 launched recently. It's obviously very different in equipment, and meant for different duties. So afaik, Aust can't quickly build more serious warships? Please correct me if I'm wrong

Germany christens the first K130 Batch-II Corvette "Köln" - Naval News

On April 21, the first of five K130 Batch II corvettes built for the German Navy, Köln, was christened at the Blohm+Voss shipyard in Hamburg.

www.navalnews.com

 

[hauritz]

If a war broke out tomorrow we would fight it with whatever was already in service. Given recent events I think Australia would mostly be building missiles and drones.

 

[Morgo]

I doubt the navy will be giving them names.

HMAS Droney McDroneface?

 

[ADMk2]

Apparently this was decided before the Government went into caretaker mode, but only just announced, for some reason…

MEDIA RELEASE – CUTTING EDGE SELF-DEFENCE MISSILES FOR NAVY’S SHIPS

The Morrison Government is investing more than $2 billion to deliver a more advanced self-defence capability for our Royal Australian Navy (RAN), which will provide our Australian Defence Force (ADF) with the most advanced technology to protect against anti-ship missile threats.
The purchase of the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) Block 2 capability for our ADF, is a key pillar in shaping, deterring and if necessary, responding to protect Australia’s interests in a strategically complex environment.
The ESSM Block 2 is a highly advanced surface to air missile, capable of defeating modern advanced air and missile threats. The ESSM Block 2 incorporates an advanced active radar missile seeker and has a range in excess of 50km.
The first tranche of these weapons have already arrived in Australia for initial integration and testing purposes. The ESSM Block 2 will be embarked in the RAN’s Surface Combatant Force, including the Anzac Class frigates and Hobart Class destroyers.
This investment will directly support Australian jobs through Defence industry supplying components for ESSM Block 2 production internationally.
Suppliers to ESSM Block 2 production include BAE Systems Australia, L3 Harris, and G H Varley, with production and supporting roles based in Adelaide, Melbourne, Brisbane, and Newcastle.
Australian industry will continue to support increasing rates of missile production, and further opportunities for Australian industry involvement are being pursued in missile component manufacture and integration.
Delivery of the ESSM Block 2 is facilitated by Australia’s participation in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) Sea Sparrow Consortium.
Australia’s participation in the Consortium provides Navy with access to important technical information, strengthens the relationship with NATO and shares the cost associated with developing a very effective capability for defeating anti-ship missiles.
As Consortium partners, Defence and Australian industry have completed a significant amount of work to develop the ESSM Block 2 to date.

MEDIA RELEASE – CUTTING EDGE SELF-DEFENCE MISSILES FOR NAVY’S SHIPS

The Morrison Government is investing more than $2 billion to deliver a more advanced self-defence capability for our Royal Australian Navy (RAN), which will provide our Australian Defence Force (ADF)…

www.peterdutton.com.au

 

[DDG38]

Fleet departures : "Royal Australian Navy personnel from HMAS Maitland line the upper decks to start the decommissioning ceremony at Larraykeyah Defence Precinct in Darwin on Thursday, 28 April 2022." Image Source : ADF Image Library

 

[jack412]

Apparently this was decided before the Government went into caretaker mode, but only just announced, for some reason…

MEDIA RELEASE – CUTTING EDGE SELF-DEFENCE MISSILES FOR NAVY’S SHIPS

The Morrison Government is investing more than $2 billion to deliver a more advanced self-defence capability for our Royal Australian Navy (RAN), which will provide our Australian Defence Force (ADF) with the most advanced technology to protect against anti-ship missile threats.
The purchase of the Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile (ESSM) Block 2 capability for our ADF, is a key pillar in shaping, deterring and if necessary, responding to protect Australia’s interests in a strategically complex environment.
The ESSM Block 2 is a highly advanced surface to air missile, capable of defeating modern advanced air and missile threats. The ESSM Block 2 incorporates an advanced active radar missile seeker and has a range in excess of 50km.
The first tranche of these weapons have already arrived in Australia for initial integration and testing purposes. The ESSM Block 2 will be embarked in the RAN’s Surface Combatant Force, including the Anzac Class frigates and Hobart Class destroyers.
This investment will directly support Australian jobs through Defence industry supplying components for ESSM Block 2 production internationally.
Suppliers to ESSM Block 2 production include BAE Systems Australia, L3 Harris, and G H Varley, with production and supporting roles based in Adelaide, Melbourne, Brisbane, and Newcastle.
Australian industry will continue to support increasing rates of missile production, and further opportunities for Australian industry involvement are being pursued in missile component manufacture and integration.
Delivery of the ESSM Block 2 is facilitated by Australia’s participation in the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) Sea Sparrow Consortium.
Australia’s participation in the Consortium provides Navy with access to important technical information, strengthens the relationship with NATO and shares the cost associated with developing a very effective capability for defeating anti-ship missiles.
As Consortium partners, Defence and Australian industry have completed a significant amount of work to develop the ESSM Block 2 to date.

MEDIA RELEASE – CUTTING EDGE SELF-DEFENCE MISSILES FOR NAVY’S SHIPS

The Morrison Government is investing more than $2 billion to deliver a more advanced self-defence capability for our Royal Australian Navy (RAN), which will provide our Australian Defence Force (ADF)…

www.peterdutton.com.au

Further to this story, there is also going to be 3 unmanned submarines with Anduril. Which is a new player to me.

Australia to build drone submarines in $2 billion deal

www.9news.com.au

The Defence Department and military technology company Anduril Australia will co-fund a project to develop three Extra Large Autonomous Undersea Vehicles (XLAUVs) over the next three years.

Palmer Luckey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In June 2017, Luckey founded the autonomy-focused defense technology company Anduril Industries, along with former Palantir Technologies executives Matt Grimm, Trae Stephens, and Brian Schimpf, and early Oculus VR Hardware Lead Joe Chen.[36] In March 2018, Anduril began a pilot program for the U.S. government to detect human trafficking and drug smuggling in remote areas of the southern border of the United States; the program led to 55 attempted entrants being caught in its first 12 days in operation.[36] Anduril later won the Autonomous Surveillance Tower program of record, resulting in the deployment of hundreds of Anduril Sentry Towers at a cost of "hundreds of millions of dollars".[37][38]