General Naval News

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
They could just as well continue to run their Elli class, they're probably in better shape...
Just as a stop-gap solution to operate besides the Elli-class.
Are the F122 Bremen class ships really in such a bad condition, compared to the Ellis? The Ellis are commissioned between 1978-1983 in the Dutch and Hellenic Navy, the Lübeck in 1990. On the other hand there was a mid life modernization programme for six of the ten Hellenic ships which started in 2004 and was completed in 2009, i dont know if the Bremens ever got a MLU or modernisation.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Can’t think of other major Western navies off hand that run their ships to $hit with zero resale prospects like the RCN (not their choice of course). A properly maintained CSC after 25 years service might be an opportunity assuming a future Canadian government sees merit in keeping a regular drum beat of new naval vessels. Not optimistic on this and I will be greenhouse gas by then so no worries for me.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
They could just as well continue to run their Elli class, they're probably in better shape...
The Ellis are all older (the youngest was commissioned seven years earlier), so I'd expect Lübeck to be in better shape unless worked harder or worse maintained.

Has Augsburg been scrapped?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On the other hand there was a mid life modernization programme for six of the ten Hellenic ships which started in 2004 and was completed in 2009, i dont know if the Bremens ever got a MLU or modernisation.
The last MLU of the F122 class ran between 1992 and 1998 and installed RAM launchers, enlarged the flight deck and installed new radars. During that MLU they also switched the original AN/UYK-7 central computer for the SATIR FCS for a AN/UYK-43 (i.e. they replaced a 1970 UNIVAC with a 1984 UNIVAC...).

There were plans for a MLU beginning in 2003 (similar timeframe to the Ellis) which was cancelled for cost reason. For this one it was planned to mostly replace the SATIR FCS with its outdated AEGIS computer infrastructure with a new TACTICOS-based distributed FCS called SABRINA21 (which was also to be installed on F123 at the same time - was realized there).

The only upgrade the F122 had after the 90s was replacing the old Rh202 guns on S20 mounts for BK27 guns on MLG27 around 2008 since the Navy was removing 20mm from its supply chain pretty much. I'm also not quite sure when the MSP-500 EO system for the 76mm was installed, but it should have been around the same time.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
An interesting article.

The incorrect usage of terms and classification is not only from this time. But giving a degrading classification to combat warships has almost become standard in some parts of the world.
And yes, it annoys me that many netizens (specially the young ones) do not want to accept that warships with a length below the 110 meters can be frigates too, and that 'frigates' of 150 meter are actually destroyers.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
An interesting article.

The incorrect usage of terms and classification is not only from this time. But giving a degrading classification to combat warships has almost become standard in some parts of the world.
And yes, it annoys me that many netizens (specially the young ones) do not want to accept that warships with a length below the 110 meters can be frigates too, and that 'frigates' of 150 meter are actually destroyers.
A pet peeve of mine, but as has been pointed out to me, there is no international standardisation of warship classification. Yes, carriers, subs etc., are obvious however corvettes, frigates, destroyers, and cruisers far less so. So how do you define what is a corvette / FF / DD / CC? Is it by tonnage / length / weapons systems / capability / or mission? Each navy appears to have a different definition for each of those classes. H I Sutton is writing from an American perspective so he would use the USN classification system, which some of us here use because of its shorthand simplicity.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
H I Sutton is writing from an American perspective so he would use the USN classification system, which some of us here use because of its shorthand simplicity.
Although he's also falling into the pitfalls that that system has - the internal mismatch on destroyers vs cruisers for example (of course stemming from the whole Spruance/Kidd/Ticonderoga hull mess).
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
A bit of a problem wrt the Sues canal. A large container ship has grounded blocking passage in both directions. Should be resolved shortly. I wonder what the ramifications would if a ship this large actually sank with significant structural damage? How long would it take to clear? Long term effect on cost of trade would be huge.
Egypt's Suez Canal blocked by huge container ship Egypt's Suez Canal blocked by huge container ship
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It's happened before. This one seems to have been caught by strong winds. The last one was pulled free pretty quickly, but this one's bigger.

The Egyptians have quite a few tugs, & I think they're experienced at using them, & diggers are working on the bank.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It's happened before. This one seems to have been caught by strong winds. The last one was pulled free pretty quickly, but this one's bigger.

The Egyptians have quite a few tugs, & I think they're experienced at using them, & diggers are working on the bank.
Yes, I understand that. I was wondering more about a severely damaged vessel of this size that was actually flooded out. Sort of thinking about sabotage. Also, what if this vessel had been a mega tanker that suffered a huge loss of crude in the canal. Surely that could delay a return to operations for quite some time?
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
She looks like she is wedged in pretty hard. They had earth moving equipment trying to dig her out. She ran aground after a steering incident during high winds in a sand storm. In the wider shots you can see her bow is wedged up, proper stuck.

1616621412494.png

Hopefully they will get her free in a few days, but it does look like a few days to do it.

Yes, I understand that. I was wondering more about a severely damaged vessel of this size that was actually flooded out. Sort of thinking about sabotage. Also, what if this vessel had been a mega tanker that suffered a huge loss of crude in the canal. Surely that could delay a return to operations for quite some time?
RPG attacks aren't unheard of in egypt, but you would really need multiple hits to make a decent hole. Security around the Canal is pretty tight. Ships are very large and unless a state actor is involved, attacks are symbolic.

.

As for an oil spill, I don't think that would stop anyone, any disabled ship would easily be pumped out, and its not very deep and theres no rocks to hit.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
She looks like she is wedged in pretty hard. They had earth moving equipment trying to dig her out. She ran aground after a steering incident during high winds in a sand storm. In the wider shots you can see her bow is wedged up, proper stuck.

View attachment 48111

Hopefully they will get her free in a few days, but it does look like a few days to do it.


RPG attacks aren't unheard of in egypt, but you would really need multiple hits to make a decent hole. Security around the Canal is pretty tight. Ships are very large and unless a state actor is involved, attacks are symbolic.

.

As for an oil spill, I don't think that would stop anyone, any disabled ship would easily be pumped out, and its not very deep and theres no rocks to hit.
More than 100 other ships are already waiting near the channel, hopefully the insurance will pay for this.
Specially incidents like this make you realize the importance of the Panama and Suez Canal.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Specially incidents like this make you realize the importance of the Panama and Suez Canal.
Suez incident like this already happen before. However not in this size of ships. This's one of the largest container ship. At 400 meter it can dwarf even Ford Class CVN.

The problem of increasing size of commercial ships has been talk for some time. Suez and Panama canals size increasingly being out grown to be able navigate easily with some of the latest World's commercial ships. Thus margin of error getting smaller each time.

However closing the canals for enlargement work will not be easy. This has been discussed by Insurance Industry for some time, and we at the Banking already being informed by Insurance that the risk in those two canals will increase more in future.

There's talk on building larger parallel canal both in Suez and Panama. Perhaps situation like this will shown the Investment costs on doing that can be viable. Still it all depends with the economics projection of increase in future traffics.

Just Add:
The new Suez Canal project seems got more traction then the New Panama Canal project. Not surprising since the technical challenge on Panama is higher then Suez. This incident hopefully will provide more incentives and Financing availability for the project.

Also the talk on New Panama Canal that I meant in here is not the same with the expansion on 2016 project that build new locks to double the capacity of Panama Canal. But more on another set of water way in the area. So far the 2016 expansion considered enough, but some talk on another water ways still also being considered in the future.

 
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swerve

Super Moderator
There's talk on building larger parallel canal both in Suez and Panama.

The last enlargement, in your link, added a second canal for 72 km, with links to the original channel. Extending that might be the quickest & cheapest solution to both capacity limits & the risk of blockages.

Unfortunately the current blockage is in one of the single channel sections.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Extending that might be the quickest & cheapest solution to both capacity limits & the risk of blockages.
Yes, seems many Analysts still hope to create complete pararel canal so ships from each direction can have their own separate water ways. What the canal authorities have done so far, only partially create separate canal on certain segment.

As you have point out, the incident happened on the single section part. This's what the Insurance assessment afraid off. That all the upgrade being done so far in Suez and Panama, still not enough for future traffics. This's due that the upgrade still not solve the problem of complete separate water ways throughout the canal lengths.

After all they're (Insurance Industry) the one who has to cover the cost not only to the Suez, but also all the shipping time delays. They will try to cover it some how, and this can means potential increase in shipping costs between Europe to Asia in near future. This's on top the increasing costs on getting Containers in some ports due to lower traffic (caused by COVID).

Not a good condition for recuperating Global Trade
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This article describes the difficulty in operating ULCV and UULCV ships. Interesting note on the wind area for the ship stuck in the canal, 20,000 sq m. The largest clipper ship was about 5,000 sq m. You have to be impressed with the Mariners who operate these beasts.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
They may need to change the operating rules, so that large ships do not transit during high winds. In such a narrow and shallow passage, that is very exposed, it really is just a matter of time before a ship gets stuck. Wind can change direction very quickly, and instead of steering into the wind your steering with it, with only meters to spare, rudders only move so quickly.

The sheer size of the ship and the fact that it didn't just slowly brush into the side, but was probably wind assisted and rammed right into it at quite an great angle, is causing problems.

Reports from people on the ground say it could take weeks, many weeks.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This article describes the difficulty in operating ULCV and UULCV ships. Interesting note on the wind area for the ship stuck in the canal, 20,000 sq m. The largest clipper ship was about 5,000 sq m. You have to be impressed with the Mariners who operate these beasts.
ULCV/UULCV’s are designed for optimum performance/control at around 20kts.
Rudders perform best at speed and begin to be less effective as speed decreases.
When in shallow water speed must be further reduced as the gap between the ships hull and the bottom reduces the flow of water particularly past the propellor and rudder and if speed is too high directional stability can be lost.
If extra power is used to correct wind sheer this will only exacerbate the situation and she may fail to answer her rudder al all and the only way to regain any control is to drastically reduce speed.
My gut feel is that a combination of wind sheer and over reaction to correct it possibly caused this accident.
 
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