Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Stampede]

Not sure what to make of this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351045078073147393

Haven’t came across anything in the main stream side of things yet


Edit

I haven’t got a sub can’t read the whole article

Shot across the bows on submarine contract

The Defence Department might revisit an upgraded Collins class design for the future submarine amid tensions with the French.

www.afr.com

Noticed Australian New Zealand Defender also have this subject under their latest content section.
Not a subscriber to this mag or the Fin.

May be a slow news day,
A beat up story.
or
??????????


Regards S

 

[buffy9]

Noticed Australian New Zealand Defender also have this subject under their latest content section.
Not a subscriber to this mag or the Fin.

May be a slow news day,
A beat up story.
or
??????????


Regards S

The Defender article is fairly critical and only refers to the AFR, though it does go over a few other details of the project such as workforce so far (400 Naval Group technical staff in Cherboug, allegedly 10% Australian). Nothing substantial. It does refer to the project being a political catastrophe, which doesn't appear to be the case when compared to the fallout of potentially cancelling it and changing direction.

Changing the program would be a massive shift - not just in terms of SEA1000 (delays would be certain) but also politically and geopolitically. Avoiding the issue of which party has been most responsible so far, public reaction to sunken costs and delays would be high. Relations with France will also likely take a hit - Naval Group is effectively state-owned and stands to lose a great deal in terms of project participation (if the Government claimed 60% figure is to be relied upon).

The apparent cost increases and concerns shouldn't be ignored - but cancelling the contract with NG in favour of another design is a big decision and one that does not come without cost. I'd argue a slow news day or a beat up before anything truly serious - AFR seems to have released three pieces in relation to the project in the past few days (no subscription on my part unfortunately):

Would you spend $90b on this submarine?

A deal that took a decade to conclude is at risk over concerns about Australia's new submarines.

www.afr.com

Shot across the bows on submarine contract

The Defence Department might revisit an upgraded Collins class design for the future submarine amid tensions with the French.

www.afr.com

Call to review submarine program over tensions

Taxpayers have already spent $1.7 billion on the future submarine project despite a rocky relationship with the French designer.

www.afr.com

I will say, personally, I would have preferred a Kockums or Sōryū/Taigei based design to have been chosen. If lessons learned during the Collins-class project were applied to an enlarged A26 design, then many of the issues that faced the Collins could have been avoided (If the 'The Collins Class Submarine Story'* is to be well regarded). Alternatively an enlarged Sōryū/Taigei would have increased cooperation with Japan and could have contributed to greater bilateral and multilateral relations, especially if other exports happened to evolve.

But that is in the past. Unless contract cancellation is seriously considered, the best Plan B is to make Plan A work.

EDIT: "The Collins Class Submarine Story: Steel, Spies and Spin" was a good read in terms of the project history and is apparently accurate in terms of its conclusions. If anyone interested ISBN is 9781107469686.

 

[oldsig127]

[/QUOTE]

Not sure what to make of this

I'm happy to interpret

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1351045078073147393

The Financial Review is a Rupert Murdoch masthead. Uncle Rupert and his sock puppet, Tony Abbot, are still offended that the RAN didn't follow instructions and please Murdoch's political and business associates in Japan. This program of half truths and outright bollocks has been going on ever since Abbot was unseated and will no doubt continue until we have new submarines....and then change to denigrating their performance

Yes, that's cynical, and political, but consider this quote

Alas it's unlikely that Japan's superior Soryu class will be looked at again. A missed opportunity for both Canberra and Tokyo.

It's from Dr Ian J Storey, an academic whose speciality is SE Asia, not Defence or Naval technology. I wonder where he gets the expertise to determine that the Soryu is "superior" to a submarine design not yet completed. I can only imagine that his contacts in East and SE Asia told hims so. They'd have no ulterior motive, would they?

Haven’t came across anything in the main stream side of things yet

Fin Review is part of News Ltd, so about as mainstream as you can get. The article is placed there for the benefit of people who know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. Sundry attempts to blow it up by selectively publishing negative stories and never publishing positive stories are a stock in trade - watch what Fox News does once Biden becomes President

No doubt there are problems with the early stages of the project. I'd be suspicious if there were none. But it's inevitable with a project as massive and complex as this. Patience.

oldsig

 

[John Newman]

The Fin Review is not part of News Ltd.

It’s part of Fairfax, which are just as bad.

Any defence article that is published by the ABC, Fairfax and News is usually crap!

 

[Anthony_B_78]

The Fin Review is not part of News Ltd.

It’s part of Fairfax, which are just as bad.

Any defence article that is published by the ABC, Fairfax and News is usually crap!

Fairfax doesn't really exist anymore. It's part of Nine. I agree with the last sentence, but it comes down to a lack of understanding by many journalists.

 

[John Fedup]

@oldsig127 One superior feature of the Soryu is that there are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Attack class hopefully will have.

 

[oldsig127]

The Fin Review is not part of News Ltd.

It’s part of Fairfax, which are just as bad.

Any defence article that is published by the ABC, Fairfax and News is usually crap!

I certainly shot myself in the foot there, about ownership anyway. I still contend that the quality of Defence journalism is pathetic, and that the major media groups will always choose the most negative slant on Defence consistent with the real world observation of the public - it doesn't pay to stage off the forces when they're saving lives on TV news ( but there's still room for insinuation if they didn't get there before being asked)

oldsig

 

[ASSAIL]

@oldsig127 One superior feature of the Soryu is that there are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Attack class hopefully will have.

On that basis....one superior feature of the Halifax class is that they are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Type 26 hopefully will have....?

 

[John Fedup]

On that basis....one superior feature of the Halifax class is that they are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Type 26 hopefully will have....?

IIRC the Soryu class is a constantly evolving design and has now actually become a new class of subs. The Halifax class was a late 1970s- 1980s design that was completed in the 1990s. The Halifaxes have been upgraded of course but there are merits in the Japanese approach. Taking a nuclear design and converting it to a conventional sub together with additional capability required by the RAN...huge undertaking with considerable risk. Hopefully it all works out according to plan but other larger navies have programs that have gone off the rails.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Not sure buying a submarine with transit speeds 1/3rd slower than Collins solves any of our problems. Japan is very close geographically to China. Australia, is, very very very far away.

If we are talking about the new type zero proposed submarined based of Soryu, then it suffers the same problems as short fin Barracuda/Attack, it needs to be designed and built.

The Japanese are willing to help us, and we should use them and benchmark them, against the French continuously, to get what we need. But even the Japanese were completely sure about soryu based subs solving our problems.

Not all problems can be solved by walking in off the street and buying MOTS. Sufferen is in the water doing trials right now, so at the moment, the barracuda based design is the lowest risk out of the new designs. Collins II is basically going to happen, just with the existing hulls.

Kicking submarines is constant past time of Australia. They are a big, complex and expensive project. Possibly the biggest, most complex, most expensive project this country has ever done. Bigger than snowy, bigger than the harbor bridge, bigger than NBN, bigger than the AFL grand final.
They sit at the heart of the ADF high end capability. They are a magnet for critics. It drives clicks and sells papers.

The biggest issue at the moment appears to be local content. Which of course isn't an issue if you get a submarine wholly built overseas, but for many reasons, that is a more expensive and less favorable, less capable outcome.

Submarines aren't like normal items, like a car or a plane. We learned this with Oberon's, where mid life maintenance was ~75% cost of a new submarine. We also spent a lot of money developing a logistical support chain so we could actually fix them and make them operational. So it becomes cheaper/better to operate them if you build them here. It is extremely hard to operate a sub away from facilities and workers that can build and maintain them. Its like a lot of journalists seem to have never had any understanding of the last 60 years of submarines and Australia.

 

[oldsig127]

@oldsig127 One superior feature of the Soryu is that there are fully functional vessels currently in operation albeit lacking important features the Attack class hopefully will have.

Yes, well that's all very fine, but like a farmer buying a Toyota SUV to replace his failng tractor because it can do some of the same work, will be cheaper and his friend, the local car dealer will also be pleased by the sale. The old tractor will last a bit longer. Then all the tractor only stuff can be handled by contracting the large farm enterprise across the river because they have lots of tractors.

Except that when the good season comes and he can't get help from the farming superpower who is busy elsewhere, he'll end up buying his retired neighbour's 80 year old hand cranked Lanz Bulldog (that he had since it was a pup) to make do - but not make money. ( Canadian Option)

The Soryus are fine boats. But ours need much longer legs. They are not what we want.

oldsig

 

[ASSAIL]

Yes, well that's all very fine, but like a farmer buying a Toyota SUV to replace his failng tractor because it can do some of the same work, will be cheaper and his friend, the local car dealer will also be pleased by the sale. The old tractor will last a bit longer. Then all the tractor only stuff can be handled by contracting the large farm enterprise across the river because they have lots of tractors.

Except that when the good season comes and he can't get help from the farming superpower who is busy elsewhere, he'll end up buying his retired neighbour's 80 year old hand cranked Lanz Bulldog (that he had since it was a pup) to make do - but not make money. ( Canadian Option)

The Soryus are fine boats. But ours need much longer legs. They are not what we want.

oldsig

OT
Don’t knock Lanz Bulldogs. I drove one on a farm at Narrandera in 1958 as a young fella. Heat with a blow torch before start, start with kerosene then switch to diesel once up and running and all the while blowing perfect smoke rings during the start process.

lanz bulldog tractors - Google Search

 

[Joe Black]

Agree, I don’t think there enough Phalanx to go around the entire fleet.

I remember reading an article on the ADM website last year (can’t access it now, last time I looked it had been upgraded to ‘premium’, subscriber only).

But it did talk about all the systems being upgraded to the current ‘block’ standard and which ships got what:

1 x 3 DDG
3 x 2 LHD
1 x 1 LSD (Choules, has mounts for two)
1 x 2 AOR (Second mount available)
1 x 1 Training
1 x 1 Spare

That totals 14 Phalanx systems.

To give Choules and the two AORs a second Phalanx (and keep two for training and spare), the RAN needs three more.

Three more wouldn’t break the bank either.

And of course there is no decision yet as to what will be fitted to the 9 x Hunter FFGs).

Cheers,

Instead of adding an additional Phalanx on the AOR, why not give it a Leonardo Marlin 40 main gun (the same one on the OPV), The Marlin 40 has an anti-air and anti-surface capability.

I would also think that it is reasonable to provide the LHD with the same Marlin 40, to replace each of the Typhoons and a single Mk15 Phalanx mounted at the end of the island or a new structure at front of the deck on starboard side akin to the Turkish Navy's LHD.

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

 

[Stampede]

Instead of adding an additional Phalanx on the AOR, why not give it a Leonardo Marlin 40 main gun (the same one on the OPV), The Marlin 40 has an anti-air and anti-surface capability.

I would also think that it is reasonable to provide the LHD with the same Marlin 40, to replace each of the Typhoons and a single Mk15 Phalanx mounted at the end of the island or a new structure at front of the deck on starboard side akin to the Turkish Navy's LHD.

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

There is a lot to like about this weapon system.
Will be interesting to see how it evolves with the Arafura Class and whether it crosses over to other platforms.
Not sure which configuration the OTO Marlin 40 the RAN are getting.
Does anyone know. Is it A , B or C

Regards S

 

[ngatimozart]

OT
Don’t knock Lanz Bulldogs. I drove one on a farm at Narrandera in 1958 as a young fella. Heat with a blow torch before start, start with kerosene then switch to diesel once up and running and all the while blowing perfect smoke rings during the start process.

lanz bulldog tractors - Google Search

The old John Deere's and Massey Fergusions were pretty good to. Fordsons as well.

 

[oldsig127]

OT
Don’t knock Lanz Bulldogs. I drove one on a farm at Narrandera in 1958 as a young fella. Heat with a blow torch before start, start with kerosene then switch to diesel once up and running and all the while blowing perfect smoke rings during the start process.

lanz bulldog tractors - Google Search

Certainly not knocking them. My late grandfather had one i rode on balanced on his knee about when you were driving yours. My uncle - younger than I but nevertheless retired - still owns it and cranks it up for *his* grandchildren. My adult kids still call it "the dub dub tractor" because of sound it makes at the slow slow revs it runs at.

Proper tractor. I still love it.

oldsig

 

[old faithful]

The Kiwi’s have a history of turning tractors into tanks, maybe they could do something with the dub dub....

 

[spoz]

There is a lot to like about this weapon system.
Will be interesting to see how it evolves with the Arafura Class and whether it crosses over to other platforms.
Not sure which configuration the OTO Marlin 40 the RAN are getting.
Does anyone know. Is it A , B or C

Regards S

Type A I believe

 

[DDG38]

Short article on the Phoenix drones being used in recent AEGIS AWD training. Good to see them painted in similar colours to the Jindiviks !
Air Affairs's Phoenix jet drone deployed in Navy exercises | Australian Manufacturing Forum

 

[76mmGuns]

Instead of adding an additional Phalanx on the AOR, why not give it a Leonardo Marlin 40 main gun (the same one on the OPV), The Marlin 40 has an anti-air and anti-surface capability.

I would also think that it is reasonable to provide the LHD with the same Marlin 40, to replace each of the Typhoons and a single Mk15 Phalanx mounted at the end of the island or a new structure at front of the deck on starboard side akin to the Turkish Navy's LHD.

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

My understanding is that Oto Melara/ Leonardo has focused on the 76mm gun for anti air, with land attack as a secondary function, not the 40mm. I've googled a while and can't find any reference to the Strales system being used for anything other than the 76mm gun.

The 40mm is much more generic, even though their site says missiles

"the high operative flexibility covers most typical modern naval scenarios including generic surface threats, fast crafts, antiship helicopters and fast attacking aircraft as well as various missiles. "

OTO Marlin 40

www.leonardocompany.com

Can the 40mm gun be in its current guise be linked with any AA system?

On a seperate issue, The Australian has their own article on the PM getting into the sub issue

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au