Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Just done some googling this arvo on the Edda Fonn and sadly it in't NH90 capable. With the beam of the ship being 18m and the helipad only going slightly further I had already thought it would be unlikely but did come past some information on the Edda Fonn from prior to RNZN acquisition.

Edda Fonn - Østensjø

Her helipad is capable of 9.3 ton which would mean the AS332 Super Puma while through some guesstimation her helipad would only be around 19m though good news appears the big pole (light pole?) at the front does fold down. If a NH90 was loaded to full capacity then it could be done but wouldnt be advisable and would have to be a better then average pilot to do the job.

https://deepoceangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/5016b19e30cd8.pdf

Stumbled on this...if you search for 'Edda Fonn' you'll see her referred to on page 10. It shows 'D', which must surely be diameter, at 19.5 metres.

https://www.helidecks.org/download files/HLL - Part D - Mobiles.pdf
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
How does a mission where a helicopter is used ,but no hanger is onboard, would Manawanui be deployed? With one under cover ,lashed to a deck ,say to a Pacific island or further under those circumstances? Or would it only be landing on Manuwanui if from another ship,Vertrep, or returning to a RNZAF from local coastal operations?
No embarkation, end of story! It will only operate choppers brought to theatre by other means (sea or air) this could even include any suitable land based civvy choppers in cases of HADR ops, if pilots are considered certified to do so. The photos show she doesn't have any auto 'fastening' for choppers to engage with so she won't do underway flight ops, she'll be stationary. At a pinch she could store one on the work area on the stern if well wrapped and could be craned off onto a wharf...but I put money on RNZN not planning this strategy.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
No embarkation, end of story! It will only operate choppers brought to theatre by other means (sea or air) this could even include any suitable land based civvy choppers in cases of HADR ops, if pilots are considered certified to do so. The photos show she doesn't have any auto 'fastening' for choppers to engage with so she won't do underway flight ops, she'll be stationary. At a pinch she could store one on the work area on the stern if well wrapped and could be craned off onto a wharf...but I put money on RNZN not planning this strategy.
Thanks for the research too, look like it's up to the job then judging by those dimensions you gave earlier.
 

Novascotiaboy

Active Member
No where in the original LOSC specs or in the information provided in numerous open source web pages was this vessel to ever embark her own helicopter. It was to be capable of having a helicopter land and takeoff and provide vertrep. It was also to support an unspecified RPAS.

This is not a warship. This is a vessel to support military and government operations.

Hopefully decisions will be forthcoming on the type and numbers of RPAS to be made available for this platform and others within the RNZN before the ships are retired.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
No where in the original LOSC specs or in the information provided in numerous open source web pages was this vessel to ever embark her own helicopter. It was to be capable of having a helicopter land and takeoff and provide vertrep. It was also to support an unspecified RPAS.

This is not a warship. This is a vessel to support military and government operations.

Hopefully decisions will be forthcoming on the type and numbers of RPAS to be made available for this platform and others within the RNZN before the ships are retired.
Well if we were to class any navy ship with a hanger as a warship, I suppose that means the two Opv, Canterbury, and Aotearoa are warships too? I wouldn't really class a lightly armed patrol vessel or logistics support as a warship,as they have no chance of defending themselves in a war zone, by themselves.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Well if we were to class any navy ship with a hanger as a warship, I suppose that means the two Opv, Canterbury, and Aotearoa are warships too? I wouldn't really class a lightly armed patrol vessel or logistics support as a warship,as they have no chance of defending themselves in a war zone, by themselves.
Any vessel that sails under the white ensign (Commonwealth navies) are classified as a warship, regardless of it's capabilities, and in times of war are legitimate targets. The only exception are hospital ships which must be painted white, are to clearly exhibit and illuminate red cross and / or red crescent markings, are not legitimate targets, are not to be attacked, and are not to be utilised for any ruse d' guerre.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Any vessel that sails under the white ensign (Commonwealth navies) are classified as a warship, regardless of it's capabilities, and in times of war are legitimate targets. The only exception are hospital ships which must be painted white, are to clearly exhibit and illuminate red cross and / or red crescent markings, are not legitimate targets, are not to be attacked, and are not to be utilised for any ruse d' guerre.
I have an inkling that when RNZN vessels identify themselves to other parties they start the comms with 'This is New Zealand warship <ships name>'.. without the 'HMNZS' - is this the case? If so I guess it's a commonwealth practice, if not global!?!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have an inkling that when RNZN vessels identify themselves to other parties they start the comms with 'This is New Zealand warship <ships name>'.. without the 'HMNZS' - is this the case? If so I guess it's a commonwealth practice, if not global!?!
Yep if it's locally it's ""This is warship XXX ... "or in foreign climes, "This is New Zealand warship XXXX ... ".
 

Traveller

Member
Any vessel that sails under the white ensign (Commonwealth navies) are classified as a warship, regardless of it's capabilities, and in times of war are legitimate targets. The only exception are hospital ships which must be painted white, are to clearly exhibit and illuminate red cross and / or red crescent markings, are not legitimate targets, are not to be attacked, and are not to be utilised for any ruse d' guerre.
FYI:
http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/FinalReport/Report/images/COI.007.0029.pdf
 

40 deg south

Well-Known Member
No where in the original LOSC specs or in the information provided in numerous open source web pages was this vessel to ever embark her own helicopter. It was to be capable of having a helicopter land and takeoff and provide vertrep. It was also to support an unspecified RPAS.

This is not a warship. This is a vessel to support military and government operations.

Hopefully decisions will be forthcoming on the type and numbers of RPAS to be made available for this platform and others within the RNZN before the ships are retired.
That is correct - the LOSC was supposed to be capable of lily-padding anything up to NH90 -size. But embarking a helicopter was never on the cards.

Reading between the lines, one of the key drivers was the need to be able to rapidly evacuate injured personnel, including divers. That fits in with the rescue and recovery part of it's role.
 

Catalina

Member
NEW ZEALAND UNDER NAVAL ATTACK - KIA, POW, SUNK


Good morning all. Further to the research for the book New Zealand Under Naval Attack - past, present and future, any thoughts and further information regarding the following data of casualties inflicted by hostile navies in New Zealand waters would be most appreciated thank you.

Yours aye

--------------------------------------------
CASUALTIES: 69 killed and 408 taken prisoner

SUNK VESSELS: 11. Wairuna, Winslow, SS Port Kembla, Pearl, Moa, SS Wimmera, RMS Niagara, Turakina, Holmwood, RMS Rangitane, HMNZS Puriri.


--------------------------------------------​

World War One

170617 Wairuna a 3,950 ton steamer sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 17 June 1917. 42 taken prisoner.

170622 Winslow sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 22 June 1917. 15 crew taken prisoner.

170918 SS Port Kembla (1910) a 4,700 ton steamer carrying lead and frozen meat for England was sunk on 18 September 1917 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf off Farewell Spit. Crew of 50 evacuated on life boats picked up by the steamer Reglus later that day.

171213 Pearl, a motorboat, captured by Count Von Luckner at Motuihe Island on 13 December 2017.

171213 Moa, a 127 ton scow, captured by Count Von Luckner at Red Mecury Island on 13 December 2017. 6 crew and one child taken prisoner.

180626 SS Wimmera a 3,022 ton passenger steamer sunk on 26 June 1918 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf north of Cape Maria van Diemen. 16 killed.

190621 3 men killed pulling a mine ashore at the Port of Waikato on 21 June 1919.


--------------------------------------------​

World War Two

400619 RMS Niagara a 13,415 ton ocean liner sunk by Orion's mine on 19 June 1940. Carrying 590 ingots of gold. Five 12.4 kg ignots remaining. 336 passengers and crew escape in lifeboats.

400820 Turakina a 8,706 ton merchant ship sunk by Orion on 20 August 1940. 34 killed. 20 taken prison.

401125 Holmwood a 546 ton steamer captured and then sunk by Komet on 25th November 1940. 29 prisoners taken including 4 women and 2 children.

4011127 RMS Rangitane (1929) a 16,712 ton passenger liner captured and sunk by Orion on 27 November 1940. 11 killed, including 6 women (4 passengers and 2 stewardesses). 295 prisoners taken, including 29 women.

410514 HMNZS Puriri a 927 ton cargo boat converted as a minesweeper sunk by a mine laid by Orion on 14 May 1941. 5 killed and 3 injured.
 
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kiwipatriot69

Active Member
NEW ZEALAND UNDER NAVAL ATTACK - KIA, POW, SUNK


Good morning all. Further to the research for the book New Zealand Under Naval Attack - past, present and future, any thoughts and further information regarding the following data of casualties suffered in New Zealand waters would be most appreciated thank you.

Yours aye

--------------------------------------------
CASUALTIES: 69 killed and 408 taken prisoner

SUNK VESSELS: 11. Wairuna, Winslow, SS Port Kembla, Pearl, Moa, SS Wimmera, RMS Niagara, Turakina, Holmwood, RMS Rangitane, HMNZS Puriri.


--------------------------------------------​

World War One

170617 Wairuna a 3,950 ton steamer sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 17 June 1917. 42 taken prisoner.

170622 Winslow sunk by SMS Wolf off Sunday Island on 22 June 1917. 15 crew taken prisoner.

170918 SS Port Kembla (1910) a 4,700 ton steamer carrying lead and frozen meat for England was sunk on 18 September 1917 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf off Farewell Spit. Crew of 50 evacuated on life boats picked up by the steamer Reglus later that day.

171213 Pearl, a motorboat, captured by Count Von Luckner at Motuihe Island on 13 December 2017.

171213 Moa, a 127 ton scow, captured by Count Von Luckner at Red Mecury Island on 13 December 2017. 6 crew and one child taken prisoner.

180626 SS Wimmera a 3,022 ton passenger steamer sunk on 26 June 1918 by a mine laid by SMS Wolf north of Cape Maria van Diemen. 16 killed.

190621 3 men killed pulling a mine ashore at the Port of Waikato on 21 June 1919.


--------------------------------------------​

World War Two

400619 RMS Niagara a 13,415 ton ocean liner sunk by Orion's mine on 19 June 1940. Carrying 590 ingots of gold. Five 12.4 kg ignots remaining. 336 passengers and crew escape in lifeboats.

400820 Turakina a 8,706 ton merchant ship sunk by Orion on 20 August 1940. 34 killed. 20 taken prison.

401125 Holmwood a 546 ton steamer captured and then sunk by Komet on 25th November 1940. 29 prisoners taken including 4 women and 2 children.

4011127 RMS Rangitane (1929) a 16,712 ton passenger liner captured and sunk by Orion on 27 November 1940. 11 killed, including 6 women (4 passengers and 2 stewardesses). 295 prisoners taken, including 29 women.

410514 HMNZS Puriri a 927 ton cargo boat converted as a minesweeper sunk by a mine laid by Orion on 14 May 1941. 5 killed and 3 injured.
RMS Niagara ,I'm surprised it still has 5 ingots onboard, if they are standard 12.5 kilo ones that's about 5 million dollars worth! I wonder if there are other gold bullion ships around our coastline that were sunk during WW2, might be just the job for Hmnzs Manawanui eh? Within Nz territorial waters, would we have claim on such ships, or would the country it was destined for still have claim to the cargo?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
RMS Niagara ,I'm surprised it still has 5 ingots onboard, if they are standard 12.5 kilo ones that's about 5 million dollars worth! I wonder if there are other gold bullion ships around our coastline that were sunk during WW2, might be just the job for Hmnzs Manawanui eh? Within Nz territorial waters, would we have claim on such ships, or would the country it was destined for still have claim to the cargo?
The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew :D Pity it wasn't prize money. I'm not sure but I would think that it would be either the consignor, the shipping company, or the insurer if it was insured.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew :D Pity it wasn't prize money. I'm not sure but I would think that it would be either the consignor, the shipping company, or the insurer if it was insured.

I would not think you could get insurance in war time, wouldn’t the government have to indemnify?
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The NZG wouldn't want the RNZN to be involved because they might have to pay salvage money to the crew :D Pity it wasn't prize money. I'm not sure but I would think that it would be either the consignor, the shipping company, or the insurer if it was insured.
But all rights go to the salvor.
I would assume that the ship and cargo have been declared total losses although I’m not familiar with NZ policy on access to historic/significant wrecks?

In addition to the above re insurance; it’s my understanding that most policies are negated by “Acts of War”
Are there any Brokers out there or others with a professional POV?
 
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Catalina

Member
Here she lies in some 131 meters. . . previously plump full of over 8 tonnes of gold on its way from the Bank of England to San Fransisco to pay for war munitions. Salvation operations in 1940 recovered 555 gold bars, and 30 more gold bars were raised in 1953.

5 gold bars lay still unaccounted for just over the horizon . . .

Screen Shot 2019-04-23 at 11.09.48 pm.png
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Five bars based on the weight of 590 being about 8 tons means the value is just over $2.6 million US. I wonder if the cost in resources and time needed for recovery would exceed this value? I guess if no further salvage attempts have been made since 1953 then the answer is likely yes.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Great that's within my iwi's rohe (tribal area). I'll talk to my younger bro who dives a lot and we should chuck in a Treaty claim to the Treaty Of Waitangi Tribunal. We have a couple of cuzzies who are very experienced with Treaty Of Waitangi claims and I am sure that they could be bribed with a goodly supply of kaimoana (sea food) :D Just gotta keep them other Maoris away especially from the kaimoana. LOL
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Is the young bro experienced on helox? He's going to need to be.....

Seriously, 400 feet is a manageable depth these days for mixed gas diving, so I am surprised that somebody hasn't at least investigated the wreck by now. After all, there are a bunch of treasure hunters out there chasing willow-the-wisps of various sorts such as lost pirate ships in the Caribbean; at least in Niagara's case it is in a known position with a known value still onboard, or in the vicinity.
 

kiwipatriot69

Active Member
Five bars based on the weight of 590 being about 8 tons means the value is just over $2.6 million US. I wonder if the cost in resources and time needed for recovery would exceed this value? I guess if no further salvage attempts have been made since 1953 then the answer is likely yes.
Yes, John ,as AI said, roughly five million Kiwi dollars, being Whangarei born myself I'm ashamed I wasn't aware of this before.Given its location being near to the poor knights marine reserve I'd be concerned about the environmental impact of leaking oil too, especially given its size . Could be another reason for our divers to take a look. Used to love digging for pipis and toheroa in Whangarei as a kid. Tikipunga falls was just down the road from my house! Smoked eel too went down a treat ,caught from there, whitebait too.
 
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