Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[hauritz]

Actually the conflict between the Boeing and Bombadier subsidies may have helped slow down the acquisition of F/A-18 E/F so that the true cost vis-a-vis the F-35A may not come out. I suspect that there was not a lot of difference. So acquiring used RAAF Classic Hornets will not be a bad idea politically. Could tide them over for a while at least

Australia's old Mirages are still operational with the Pakistan Airforce.

For Canada's sake I hope we won't be seeing the classic hornets still flying in 30 years time.

 

[John Fedup]

Actually the conflict between the Boeing and Bombadier subsidies may have helped slow down the acquisition of F/A-18 E/F so that the true cost vis-a-vis the F-35A may not come out. I suspect that there was not a lot of difference. So acquiring used RAAF Classic Hornets will not be a bad idea politically. Could tide them over for a while at least

Absolutely the Boeing/Bombardier issue derailed the interim SH purchase and cost difference between a SH versus F-35 would make the acquisition of SHs unjustified given all the advantages of a 5 th gen jet. Senior RCAF officers stated the interim purchase was never needed so buying usd SHs barely newer than RCAF jets makes no sense. This mess was junior's creation.

 

[John Fedup]

Australia's old Mirages are still operational with the Pakistan Airforce.

For Canada's sake I hope we won't be seeing the classic hornets still flying in 30 years time.

Won't happen, there will either be new jets or Canada will abandon fast jets. The latter option will end NORAD and pi$$ off our southern neighbour.

 

[Milne Bay]

Absolutely the Boeing/Bombardier issue derailed the interim SH purchase and cost difference between a SH versus F-35 would make the acquisition of SHs unjustified given all the advantages of a 5 th gen jet. Senior RCAF officers stated the interim purchase was never needed so buying usd SHs barely newer than RCAF jets makes no sense. This mess was junior's creation.

The speculation is that most will be bought for spares with only a few with lower hours (if there are any) pressed into service. They don't have to last long, do they - only until enough time passes to justify the " won't buy F-35s" statements.
On the other hand I can't understand how Canada can continue to keep workshare in the F-35 program

 

[John Fedup]

The speculation is that most will be bought for spares with only a few with lower hours (if there are any) pressed into service. They don't have to last long, do they - only until enough time passes to justify the " won't buy F-35s" statements.
On the other hand I can't understand how Canada can continue to keep workshare in the F-35 program

Unless junior is waiting for the second coming, there is no need to buy RAAF classic Hornets. If he is waiting for the second coming then grown-ups in the Liberal Party need to remove him. God knows he has done enough damage in other areas besides defence. As for Canadian workshare in the F-35, program, I can only assume cowardice on the part of LM management. A stop and diversion of workshare should have happened right after junior was elected!:mad2

 

[swerve]

Australia's old Mirages are still operational with the Pakistan Airforce. ....

I think Pakistan's Mirage fleet consists entirely of Frankenjets nowadays. So many IIIs & Vs from multiple sources have been cannibalised to keep it flying that airframe numbers are probably arbitrary.

Pakistan is the great Mirage III/V graveyard, where old Mirages go to die & be dismantled, to live again. It's rather impressive, really.

 

[John Fedup]

Bloody hell, thank God junior's old man bought Hornets. If he bought Mirages junior would be shopping there right now for parts along with immigration invites for all the Khaddar family relatives.:jump

 

[StingrayOZ]

Pakistan is the great Mirage III/V graveyard, where old Mirages go to die & be dismantled, to live again. It's rather impressive, really.

You may have described Canada's new air force, but with F-18's.

I was under the belief the RAAF fleet were pretty ragged. I don't see any transferred air frames lasting long.

 

[Milne Bay]

You may have described Canada's new air force, but with F-18's.

I was under the belief the RAAF fleet were pretty ragged. I don't see any transferred air frames lasting long.

About three quarters of the RAAF classics had their centre barrels re-done and all were upgraded with the ?-UP programme (can't remember the exact acronym). Still, they have been around for a long time now. Could still be a useful source of spares if Canada goes that way

 

[John Newman]

I'm sure that when it comes to defence procurement, Canadian Governments must have a motto that goes like this:

"Why do today, what you can put off until tomorrow"

And of course tomorrow never comes, decisions on a permanent replacement for the Classic fleet keeps getting buck passed to the next and then the next Government.

Anyway, happy to sell them retired RAAF Classic Hornets, but not until they have all been replaced by F-35A, and we also keep the best airframes available until the end, and that's going to be until late 2023.

 

[John Newman]

About three quarters of the RAAF classics had their centre barrels re-done and all were upgraded with the ?-UP programme (can't remember the exact acronym). Still, they have been around for a long time now. Could still be a useful source of spares if Canada goes that way

Actually no, my understanding was that the centre barrel replacements were only completed on approx. 10 or 12 airframes, not the larger number of airframes as originally planned.

 

[Milne Bay]

Actually no, my understanding was that the centre barrel replacements were only completed on approx. 10 or 12 airframes, not the larger number of airframes as originally planned.

I thought it was of the order of 40+
Was there a cheaper fix discovered rather than centre barrel replacement?

 

[t68]

The tenth and final F/A-18 Hornet to be modified as part of this program was handed to the Commonwealth this month during an official ceremony held at the BAE Systems facility in Williamtown, NSW.

F/A-18 Classic Hornet Centre Barrel Replacement Program Completion

 

[ASSAIL]

F/A-18 Classic Hornet Centre Barrel Replacement Program Completion

Then why bother with RAAF airframes? L3 MAS seem to be the experts, we ship 'em to Canada for the work so logically .......funny these Canucks.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Then why bother with RAAF airframes? L3 MAS seem to be the experts, we ship 'em to Canada for the work so logically .......funny these Canucks.

Yeh, I don't understand it either. You would think if anyone would have loads of spares and F-18 expertise and could manage to extend operation and air frames, it would be Canada.

Things must be getting pretty tight.

Those hornets would have had a pretty tough life, I heard when the CBR stopped we were flat out trying to manage air frame hours. I would imagine that we would keep anything common and useful for the super hornets. Can't imagine that leaves much. I would have thought Canada's air frames would be in better condition than Australia's, I think they upgraded the CBR of 40 of their 80 operational aircraft (out of the 138 air frames they originally ordered, with 8 crashes).

Maybe Canada might be interested in an old Caribou or two, we could remove the museum plates and everything.

 

[John Newman]

Yeh, I don't understand it either. You would think if anyone would have loads of spares and F-18 expertise and could manage to extend operation and air frames, it would be Canada.

Things must be getting pretty tight.

Those hornets would have had a pretty tough life, I heard when the CBR stopped we were flat out trying to manage air frame hours. I would imagine that we would keep anything common and useful for the super hornets. Can't imagine that leaves much. I would have thought Canada's air frames would be in better condition than Australia's, I think they upgraded the CBR of 40 of their 80 operational aircraft (out of the 138 air frames they originally ordered, with 8 crashes).

Maybe Canada might be interested in an old Caribou or two, we could remove the museum plates and everything.

If I remember correctly (can't find links), but when the RAAF's CBR program was suspended at 10 airframes it was because of two reasons.

Firstly, the CBR program for each airframe was far more complicated, invasive and extensive than originally planned.

And secondly, that it was discovered that the centre barrels were 'not' as fatigues as first thought, hence the program being cut short.


Move forward a few years from that time, and I remember a couple of years ago that the DSTO came up with a 'new fatigue monitoring algorithm' that actually showed that the RAAF's Classic fleet was not as fatigued as first thought.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australian-algorithm-extends-life-of-classic-horn-423803/

The relevant quote from the above article is:

"As a direct result of the upgrade of the Hornet monitoring program, the reprocessing of the entire fleet’s usage history indicates that fatigue is no longer the main driver to the planned withdrawal date,” says DSTO research leader Loris Molent."

Apart from the above from the Flight Global report above, I remember reading a more detailed report, maybe an ANAO report, that basically said that the airframes were a lot 'healthier' than first believed.

 

[Milne Bay]

If I remember correctly (can't find links), but when the RAAF's CBR program was suspended at 10 airframes it was because of two reasons.

Firstly, the CBR program for each airframe was far more complicated, invasive and extensive than originally planned.

And secondly, that it was discovered that the centre barrels were 'not' as fatigues as first thought, hence the program being cut short.


Move forward a few years from that time, and I remember a couple of years ago that the DSTO came up with a 'new fatigue monitoring algorithm' that actually showed that the RAAF's Classic fleet was not as fatigued as first thought.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/australian-algorithm-extends-life-of-classic-horn-423803/

The relevant quote from the above article is:

"As a direct result of the upgrade of the Hornet monitoring program, the reprocessing of the entire fleet’s usage history indicates that fatigue is no longer the main driver to the planned withdrawal date,” says DSTO research leader Loris Molent."

Apart from the above from the Flight Global report above, I remember reading a more detailed report, maybe an ANAO report, that basically said that the airframes were a lot 'healthier' than first believed.

Thank you for the background info here. It fills some blanks in my recollection.
It would be interesting to know how far into their expected life of type the RAAF hornets are. Clearly there must be some life left in them or the RCAF would not be interested

 

[SteveR]

Australia will rescue the RCAF.
Canada considering RAAF classic Hornets? | Australian Aviation
A Canadian delegation visited Australia in August to discuss transferring the Jets.

Janes says that it is RAAF Super Hornets that are under consideration by RCAF:

Canada considering second-hand Australian Super Hornets | Jane's 360

I think the RAAF Chief has said he wants an all 5th Gen fighter force by 2025 and I think this meant replacing the 15 year old SHornets with F-35s about that time.

 

[John Newman]

Janes says that it is RAAF Super Hornets that are under consideration by RCAF:

Canada considering second-hand Australian Super Hornets | Jane's 360

I think the RAAF Chief has said he wants an all 5th Gen fighter force by 2025 and I think this meant replacing the 15 year old SHornets with F-35s about that time.

RAAF Super Hornets for Canada? Well that is a bit of a stretch.

As best I know (unless there has been a shift), according to the DIIP, the proposal for the replacement of the Super Hornets with the fourth Sqn of F-35A's is not due to considered and have a budget allocation until at least 2025 and the replacement completed by end of the 2020's.

Somehow I think there is some confusion over Classic and Super Hornets.

Yes the RAAF will start to see the delivery of the first of the next 70 F-35A's next year, and the last in 2023 (meaning we will be finished with the Classic fleet sometime during 2023), but I can't see the Super's being available until the latter 2020's.

Anyway and regardless, just wish Canadian politicians would just pull the finger out and make a decision on the replacement of the whole RCAF Classic fleet instead of dicking around with 'interim' purchases.

The saga continues!!!!

 

[John Fedup]

If the interim purchase is so urgent I can't see why Canada would wait several more years until Australia is ready to ditch their relatively new SHs. Whether new builds or getting used, this whole process is BS.