F-35 Program - General Discussion

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It will be interesting to see what Trump will do if India offers to buy the F-16 along with a factory for local production given his stance on companies moving manufacturing offshore. I would think offshore manufacture for the SH would even harder for Boeing.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Gen Bogdans replacement:

The former head of the Office of Naval Research and the former head of the Navy unmanned aviation development has been selected to lead the Defense Department’s F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter program office, the Pentagon announced on Tuesday. Rear Adm. Mat Winter is now set to replace Air Force Lt. Gen. Christopher Bogdan […]

https://news.usni.org/2017/03/28/re...230391997&mc_cid=5811878a25&mc_eid=802226e4dd

and the Breaking Defence op-ed on same

http://breakingdefense.com/2017/03/...yzJMFE2D3WfDMVZKlKD5UKCV8mWwWQ&_hsmi=49434628
 

pussertas

Active Member
Ox problems with F18 Fighters

As President Donald Trump pushes for the Pentagon to buy more of Boeing Co.’s F-18 aircraft, the U.S. Navy is grappling with an escalating problem: Pilots suffering potentially dangerous oxygen deprivation or a loss of cabin pressure in the fighter jets.

All F-18 models, including the Super Hornet that Trump has championed, have shown steady annual increases in what the Navy calls “physiological episodes,” according to service testimony obtained by Bloomberg News. What’s more, the data show that incidents of oxygen deprivation and cabin decompression have escalated in the last year, while service officials work to determine the root cause of the in-flight problems.

SEE: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-03-28/pilots-short-of-oxygen-keep-vexing
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
As President Donald Trump pushes for the Pentagon to buy more of Boeing Co.’s F-18 aircraft, the U.S. Navy is grappling with an escalating problem: Pilots suffering potentially dangerous oxygen deprivation or a loss of cabin pressure in the fighter jets.

All F-18 models, including the Super Hornet that Trump has championed, have shown steady annual increases in what the Navy calls “physiological episodes,” according to service testimony obtained by Bloomberg News. What’s more, the data show that incidents of oxygen deprivation and cabin decompression have escalated in the last year, while service officials work to determine the root cause of the in-flight problems.

SEE: https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-03-28/pilots-short-of-oxygen-keep-vexing
The bigger issue is whether the OBOGS is across other types.

Hornet and Shornet are fundamentally different aircraft - so its not a platform problem - its a component problem

and I seem to recall that OBOGS cropped up with the F-22

so if OBOGS is common to various types, then thats a whole pile of hurt coming.
if OBOGS on other types are not causing problems then the fault analysis starts to get tighter
 

Vanshilar

New Member
This is just one of several stories about Boeing's attempting to divert F-35Cs to SH /(ASH)s. The F-35C needs to get ramped up quickly to prevent an access of new SHs reducing the size of the F-35C fleet.
Does anyone have a link to the actual white paper? It might be interesting to see what claims Boeing is making about possible Super Hornet upgrades.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I used to have some references for this but can't find them. From memory the big items include the enhance glass cockpit with bigger displays, conformal fuel tanks, a centreline enclosed weapons pod for better RCS, some minor geometry changes for a small RCS reduction, IRST, and enhanced engines. I can't recall if there is a planned radar upgrade above and beyond what the SH already has. All together, these enhancements defined the ASH (advanced super hornet). Most of these items already exist (some available now for existing SHs) with the exception of the new engines. One plan was running the existing F414s at full military power for better performance but less durability. Needless to say the USN was not impressed. Not sure about other enhance engine options.

The bottom line is all this stuff improves the SH but it still is far shy of being a 5th fighter ( no sensor fusion, no advanced networking, etc.) and the overall cost will start to rival the FA-35's cost. Canada has already been sucked into this short term solution and we will pay big time for this mistake (likely won't even include some of the above new features.). Hopefully the USN won't follow this path.
 

Vanshilar

New Member
Yeah I've read some of the proposed upgrades about the ASH. Not sure if there was anything new that the white paper is hawking though, or if it has any firm numbers on anything. That's what I was curious about.
 

Blue Jay

Member
It's quite unfortunate because the ASH upgrades seem very shiny, new and exciting. To the typical person they sound like an easy, cheap way to upgrade an already capable platform that compares with the F-35.

LO? Covered by center-line weapons bay + RCS reductions

kinematics? new engines

Avionics? New displays etc.

Ridiculous but it makes sense to most people.

Then you have the love the rhino gets contrasting with the bad rep the F-35 has in the eye of the public combined with the fact that most people unfamiliar with defense issues have absolutely no idea of the importance of SA, networking, sensor fusion etc. capabilities that the F-35 brings–things that the ASH won't ever be able to have without essentially becoming an "Ultra Hornet" that is to the Rhino what the Rhino was to the hornet. Even then, not even.

It's quite a task to bring people up to speed on this subject. It requires not only a motivated and knowledgable teacher but a willing and patient audience...

At this point I think the only thing that's left is for the F-35 to speak for itself in combat.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's quite unfortunate because the ASH upgrades seem very shiny, new and exciting. To the typical person they sound like an easy, cheap way to upgrade an already capable platform that compares with the F-35.

LO? Covered by center-line weapons bay + RCS reductions

kinematics? new engines

Avionics? New displays etc.

Ridiculous but it makes sense to most people.

Then you have the love the rhino gets contrasting with the bad rep the F-35 has in the eye of the public combined with the fact that most people unfamiliar with defense issues have absolutely no idea of the importance of SA, networking, sensor fusion etc. capabilities that the F-35 brings–things that the ASH won't ever be able to have without essentially becoming an "Ultra Hornet" that is to the Rhino what the Rhino was to the hornet. Even then, not even.

It's quite a task to bring people up to speed on this subject. It requires not only a motivated and knowledgable teacher but a willing and patient audience...

At this point I think the only thing that's left is for the F-35 to speak for itself in combat.
Just pick up a modified car magazine or talk to the average bloke about what makes a good performance car. There is an entire culture out there around starting off with a ten, twenty, thirty year old car or 4x4 and spending more than the thing is worth on modifications and upgrades that result in something more expensive to own and operate, but still inferior to a new equivalent. Don't get me wrong, it can be fun but as far as practicality, economy and reliability new is nearly always better.
 

CB90

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just pick up a modified car magazine or talk to the average bloke about what makes a good performance car. There is an entire culture out there around starting off with a ten, twenty, thirty year old car or 4x4 and spending more than the thing is worth on modifications and upgrades that result in something more expensive to own and operate, but still inferior to a new equivalent. Don't get me wrong, it can be fun but as far as practicality, economy and reliability new is nearly always better.
Not to mention, most of JSF one time R&D is now in the rear view mirror.

ASH would be repeating another full R&D cycle...and likely will not be much if any cheaper by unit cost once that's all done.

In other words, too late for it to be a viable alternative.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It's quite a task to bring people up to speed on this subject. It requires not only a motivated and knowledgable teacher but a willing and patient audience...
spend 5 minutes reading the comments on F35 on any given aviation week article and you realise just how dumb some people are

no idea about SA, no idea about the rapid shift to a common operating picture, no idea about a common combat operating picture across the 3 principle services, no idea about co-operative engagement, no idea about NCW and sensor fusion, no realisation and appreciation of the fact that these things are no longer aspirational buzz words and have varying degrees of reality today

the cost to bring a Growler/Shornet hybrid up to F35 capability is a cost of diminishing returns.

the problem is that the majority of people re this subject have 30 second attention spans and start from a baseline where its easier to be convinced by the loudest voice in the room rather than listen to people who might actually have a clue about future warfare constraints
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Not to mention, most of JSF one time R&D is now in the rear view mirror.

ASH would be repeating another full R&D cycle...and likely will not be much if any cheaper by unit cost once that's all done.

In other words, too late for it to be a viable alternative.
An example that comes to mind is the cancellation of the RAH-66 Comanche, it replacement with the ARH-70 Apraho (an evolved legacy Kiowa) and the cancellation of that program when its unit price ended up higher than that of the Comanche, even though it was significantly less capable. Now the larger, more expensive Apache is being used in the mission as the is nothing else available that can actually do the job.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
the problem is that the majority of people re this subject have 30 second attention spans and start from a baseline where its easier to be convinced by the loudest voice in the room rather than listen to people who might actually have a clue about future warfare constraints
Change the 30 second attention span to 15 seconds and you have the perfect description for the Canadian electorate. It can be elevated slightly by promising unaffordable social handouts during election time. This is the biggest obstacle for the F-35 here and the same may be true for many other pending defence requirements.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Have heard that new build F35s are set to get a new coating/livery, with existing airframes to receive it later. Can't attest to the quality of the source 100% though so would be interested to know if others can confirm? I don't mind the lighter tone to be honest.
 
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