Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[ngatimozart]

The Ministry of Defence have, via GETS, released the respondents to the 2015 LOSC RFI:

• BMT Defence Services Limited (BMT)
• Damen
• Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI)
• Istanbul Shipyard
• Navantia
• STX France
• Vard

I think that most, if not all of these, will respond to the RFT.

 

[40 deg south]

The Ministry of Defence have, via GETS, released the respondents to the 2015 LOSC RFI:

• BMT Defence Services Limited (BMT)
• Damen
• Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI)
• Istanbul Shipyard
• Navantia
• STX France
• Vard

I think that most, if not all of these, will respond to the RFT.

For comparison, here are the respondees to (presumably) the original RFI.

Damen
BMT
BAE
Hyundai
Fincantieri
Lockheed Martin
Navantia

BAE and LockMart are out, STX France and Instanbul Shipyard are in. Vard is owned by Fincantieri, so that is a continuation.

One or two links that might be of interest.

STX France - Paquebots - Research and seismic vessels

STX France appear to have built some fairly handy survey vessels in the past.

VARD | Naval Architects and Marine Engineering

VARD was previously the Norwegian-based arm of the STX empire before being bought out by Italy's Fincanteiri. They have a strong background in offshore suport-type vessels, and build Ocean Protector for Australia. Click on the POrtfolio link at the site for a glance at their range.

UT 789 CD multi purpose – Rolls-Royce

Rolls Royce didn't respond, which makes me wonder if they are involved with Hyundai (as they appear to be with the Endeavour replacement). They appear to have vessels for all purposes - the UT789 looks to me a fair bit like the 'indicative' illustration in Navy Today.

Anyone else have ideas on designs likely to be submitted to the tender?

 

[Novascotiaboy]

I like the RR UT 789 design as it has the advantage of being a very proven hull form. A RR design built by HHI would allow great value for money. I hope that once this vessel is in service a second RR design be chosen as the southern ocean OPV using the Icelandic Cosst Guard ship Thor as a design but with an organic helicopter capability such as the SH2Gi added.

A continuous build of three vessels from HHI would then hopefully allow the way for an HHI frigate replacement program.

In time I would hope that the LOSC vessel would be recognized as a very versatile platform and that a second be purchased with a more general purpose in mind. Let's just hope that the process proceeds and the Navy gets their hulls that have been identified already.

I remember the run up to Project Protector and my limited access to information as the process stumbled along and hulls hit the water. Good times ahead for RNZN.

 

[CJohn]

As many speculated with the recent MSC contract it has been confirmed the extent of Rolls Royce Marines involvement in the process.

"Rolls-Royce has secured its first contract from the naval sector for a concept design based on its Environship Leadge Bow wave-piercing hull form"

More information here :Rolls-Royce wins first naval order for Enviroship design - Marine Log

 

[Rob c]

As many speculated with the recent MSC contract it has been confirmed the extent of Rolls Royce Marines involvement in the process.

"Rolls-Royce has secured its first contract from the naval sector for a concept design based on its Environship Leadge Bow wave-piercing hull form"

More information here :Rolls-Royce wins first naval order for Enviroship design - Marine Log

The interesting part of the article for me is the view of the model and the new bow shape, including the underwater shape which looks remarkably like the bow shape of a WW1 Queen Elizabeth class battleship. Has technology gone around in a full circle?

 

[alexsa]

The interesting part of the article for me is the view of the model and the new bow shape, including the underwater shape which looks remarkably like the bow shape of a WW1 Queen Elizabeth class battleship. Has technology gone around in a full circle?

It would be a mistake to suggest the straight stem of the Queen Elizabeth Class is the same as the Leadge bow form. For a stat the straight stem of the QE does not have the same design of the underwater body.

The Leadge is a development of the Axe design where the bulbous bow is incorporated into the straight stem but remains. It is not obvious from the side profile but is apparent when looked at form ahead. The difference is with the axe and Leadge is the bulbous bow is a sharp leading edge to improve resistance in ballast conditions.

IN short not the same by any measure.

The Leadge bow is used for large slow ships (is supposed) to reduces resistance in ahead seas.

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:566082/FULLTEXT01.pdf

http://mararchief.tudelft.nl/file/2993/

 

[40 deg south]

As many speculated with the recent MSC contract it has been confirmed the extent of Rolls Royce Marines involvement in the process.

"Rolls-Royce has secured its first contract from the naval sector for a concept design based on its Environship Leadge Bow wave-piercing hull form"

More information here :Rolls-Royce wins first naval order for Enviroship design - Marine Log

CJohn
Thanks for that update. I think I was the first on this forum to speculate on a RR-HHI tie-up for the MSC bid, so nice to have it confirmed.

A couple of other points caught my eye.

In addition to the Environship concept design, the Rolls-Royce scope of supply is extensive and includes a Combined Diesel Electric and Diesel (CODLAD) propulsion plant based on twin Bergen main engines. These will each drive, via reduction gears, a controllable pitch propeller. Rolls-Royce will also supply the propeller shafts.

Electrical power will be supplied by Rolls-Royce in the form of four MTU gensets from Rolls-Royce Power Systems, which will also provide power to the Rolls-Royce supplied switchboards, motors, drives, bow thruster and the electric RAS/FAS system, which allows for simpler and quieter replenishment/fueling-at-sea operations.

I wondered if the engines would be Bergen or MTU, as both are owned by RR. Lots of other RR gear included, which should hopefully endure a degree of inter-compatability.

"We have worked with HHI on a number of vessels, but this the first project in which we will collaborate on the conceptual design requirement. We look forward to working with HHI in delivering the MSC Support Ship and providing through-life support to the New Zealand Navy."

This reinforces my belief that the (very high) up-front price quoted by the government includes a hefty sustainment package. That would certainly be consistent with the contracts NZ signed for training aircraft and the Seasprite helicopters.

 

[kiwipatriot69]

I was thinking similar thoughts looking at USN Zumwalt Class destroyer, shape of hull reminds me a bit of the old American civil war ironclads!

 

[alexsa]

I was thinking similar thoughts looking at USN Zumwalt Class destroyer, shape of hull reminds me a bit of the old American civil war ironclads!

Sorry ...... Really that really is a stretch. They were essentially low freeboard riverine gun platforms. Sorry I do not see the similarity. One is a straight stem high freeboard ocean going vessel and the others are essentially very low freeboard barges (to avoid hull damage) with an armoured shed or turret fixed on top.

If the straight stem is the issue then Titanic and any 1900 to 1920 steam ship is more representative ...... But not in the same technological league.

 

[Rob c]

It would be a mistake to suggest the straight stem of the Queen Elizabeth Class is the same as the Leadge bow form. For a stat the straight stem of the QE does not have the same design of the underwater body.

The Leadge is a development of the Axe design where the bulbous bow is incorporated into the straight stem but remains. It is not obvious from the side profile but is apparent when looked at form ahead. The difference is with the axe and Leadge is the bulbous bow is a sharp leading edge to improve resistance in ballast conditions.

IN short not the same by any measure.

The Leadge bow is used for large slow ships (is supposed) to reduces resistance in ahead seas.

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:566082/FULLTEXT01.pdf

http://mararchief.tudelft.nl/file/2993/

You need to look at a dry dock Photo of a WW1 british battle ship bow and you will see that they where not just a straight stem but were bulged somewhat under water. While the profile is not exactly the same the similarities are significant.

 

[alexsa]

You need to look at a dry dock Photo of a WW1 british battle ship bow and you will see that they where not just a straight stem but were bulged somewhat under water. While the profile is not exactly the same the similarities are significant.

It may appear so but they are not. Look at figure 5 in

http://mararchief.tudelft.nl/file/2993/

The leadge bow has a straight stem but with full form bulbous bow (but with a sharp edge to the bulge) for the full depth of the submerged hull form at the normal loaded draft. The QE class had a straight stem with a rounded proud submerged area of the stem below water, It is not a bulb as such (in other words it bulged to the sides). This form was common with world war one battle ships from the Dreadnought to the Repulse.

I lines diagram would show very considerable difference between the two. In addition a Leadge bow would have been a poor choice for a fast battleship (as the Warspite was considered at the time having a speed of 25 knots) noting the Leadge bow is optimized for large slow ships.

 

[40 deg south]

Rolls-Royce secures milestone contract with Hyundai Heavy Industries for first naval Environship – Rolls-Royce

If you look at the RR press release behind the current stories, there are three new CGI pictures oft he ship. Two give an indication of how she will look below the waterline.
I still can't figure out why he container stowage area is only single-stacked.

Another thought: Given RR's strong position in designing offshore support vessels, this can't hurt their chances with the LOSC tender. They could probably manage to have some compatible parts with the Endeavour. RNZN will still have a fleet of orphans, but orphans that are related night be slight improvement!

 

[ngatimozart]

The LOSC RFT closing date has been extended to 25th November 2016. This is in response to feedback received during the Industry Day held 20th September 2016.

 

[Rob c]

It may appear so but they are not. Look at figure 5 in

http://mararchief.tudelft.nl/file/2993/

The leadge bow has a straight stem but with full form bulbous bow (but with a sharp edge to the bulge) for the full depth of the submerged hull form at the normal loaded draft. The QE class had a straight stem with a rounded proud submerged area of the stem below water, It is not a bulb as such (in other words it bulged to the sides). This form was common with world war one battle ships from the Dreadnought to the Repulse.

I lines diagram would show very considerable difference between the two. In addition a Leadge bow would have been a poor choice for a fast battleship (as the Warspite was considered at the time having a speed of 25 knots) noting the Leadge bow is optimized for large slow ships.

Totally agree they are not exactly the same and never intended that they should be considered as such, just that they had similarities. The Queen Elizabeth was probably a bad example as they just inherited the bow shape from the later pre-dreadnought's and early dreadnoughts which had a speed range of !8 to 20 knots. Which once the ram was dropped these had a straight stem and a bulbous underwater shape. as a minor point ,no Q.E. ever achieved 25 knots in original condition so should be rated as barely 24 knot ships until rebuilds in the thirties corrected this on some of the class.

 

[KiwiRob]

Sorry ...... Really that really is a stretch. They were essentially low freeboard riverine gun platforms. Sorry I do not see the similarity. One is a straight stem high freeboard ocean going vessel and the others are essentially very low freeboard barges (to avoid hull damage) with an armoured shed or turret fixed on top.

If the straight stem is the issue then Titanic and any 1900 to 1920 steam ship is more representative ...... But not in the same technological league.

The largest ship today with similar bow construction is the AIDAPrima.

A while back removing bulbous bows from container ships was all the rage when slow steaming became the norm.

 

[alexsa]

The largest ship today with similar bow construction is the AIDAPrima.

A while back removing bulbous bows from container ships was all the rage when slow steaming became the norm.

Not removed but reprofiled for slow speed steaming

"Nose Jobs" For Ships - Reason Behind Retrofitting Bulbous Bow

 

[Novascotiaboy]

In the LOSC RFI there is reference to the ability to operate RPAS from the ship with hangar capacity for two units similar to the Schiebel rotary type.

Although possibly better phrased in the Air Force thread I would like to discuss options for not only the LOSC but also other naval tasks and other vessels.

During long open ocean patrols and given the current limitations of the sensor fit to the current OPV's would not both fixed wing and rotary wing RPAS's not offer significant capabilities to NZ? The Boeing Scaneagle was designed as a commercial UAV to seek out schools of tuna. It is in use with many nations armed forces including NZ's main allies. With its long endurance of 20 hours it could provide a low cost over the horizon ISR capability for maritime forces. I read that four Scaneagle RPAS, launch and recovery systems and a ground station can be had for @NZ$4 million. The recent White Paper identifies the need for a joint unmanned aerial vehicle capability for battlefield, EEZ and HADR support.

The rotary type RPAS's that are available also offer capabilities and small size to allow military taskings. The Schiebel S100 has a 6 hour endurance but offers vertical takeoff and landing compared to the pneumstic launch system for Scaneagle.

What is the opinion of others concerning a possible purchase of either or both fixed and rotary wing RPAS offerings? Is there a NZ based drone company that could offer an indigenous capability?

Besides REMUS what other AUV's is NZ interested in or currently in possession of? What capabilities would the Littoral warfare unit desire over current capabilities?

Will additional AUV's be acquired with the LOSC?

 

[Gibbo]

September's Navy Today is now available for download as of earlier today and pages 10-11 show a representation "of one potential solution to the littoral Operations support Capability user requirements and does not indicate the arrangement of a specific solution or necessarily reflect the design of the final negotiated LOSC ship".

From the article (and interesting that delivery is scheduled for 2020, but assuming a 2-3 year build presumably the final design will be signed off within a year or so from now)?

What I find interesting is given that a core function of the LOSC is that it will support diving operations, there is no mention of a decompression chamber listed amongst the fairly detailed list of 'features' in the Navy Today article. One assumes a new one would be preferred over trying to save a few $$$ by re-using that from Manawanui!?!

 

[ngatimozart]

The USN is planning to send an Arleigh Burke DDG for the RNZN 75th Anniversary Naval Review in November. RNZN CN, Rear Adm. John Martin has said the he hopes that this visit is the beginning of regular USN ship visits to NZ, signalling the end of the anti-nuclear stand off. However the minority diehard left wing anti US protestors are already planning protests. They don't protest against Chinese warships when they are in port.

 

[MrConservative]

The USN is planning to send an Arleigh Burke DDG for the RNZN 75th Anniversary Naval Review in November. RNZN CN, Rear Adm. John Martin has saidthe he hopes that this visit is the beginning of regular USN ship visits to NZ, signalling the end of the anti-nuclear stand off. However the minority diehard left wing anti US protestors are already planning protests. They don't protest against Chinese warships when they are in port.

Excellent choice.

The crowds will turnout in their thousands and give the crew a warm welcome ..... and give Joe Public the opportunity to colourfully share his opinions towards the protesters.