Submarine news

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rockitten

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ngatimozart said:
You are making some serious accusations here regarding the Germans. How about some reputable sources to back said claims up please. I really am quite interested.
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The story about German selling submarine diesel to china is well covered in open source materials.

For other stuff I mentioned, if my memory serve me correctly, there was an article from ASPI talking about them. The conclusion is that Japan is a more secure supplier than the other 2.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
Not long ago most on this forum for tipping the Japanese to win the contract, but now that seems to have flipped to the Germans. Why the sudden change?

ngatimozart said:
You are making some serious accusations here regarding the Germans. How about some reputable sources to back said claims up please. I really am quite interested.
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There are often claims on this forum that the French do much worse without references given.
 
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rjtjrt

Member
ngatimozart said:
You are making some serious accusations here regarding the Germans. How about some reputable sources to back said claims up please. I really am quite interested.
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It is very reasonable to ask which submarine supplying nation would be willing to stand up to Chinese pressure to stop supplying Australian customer with spares or weapons in event of China becoming upset with Australia in future.
Never forget the European decisions to stop weapons sales/support to Australia during Vietnam war.
China is an enrmous trading nation with Europe (and Japan), and much more important in that respect than Australia. Japan would be by far the most likely to stand up to Chinese pressure, if it came to that.
 
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White Water

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Google is my (or your) friend...

ngatimozart said:
You are making some serious accusations here regarding the Germans. How about some reputable sources to back said claims up please. I really am quite interested.
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If you 'google' with 'German submarine diesel engine china' then results are:

CORRECTED-SPECIAL REPORT-Chinese military's secret ...
reuters /.../breakout-submarines-special-report-p...

2013/12/20 - Most of China's advanced surface warships are powered by German and French-designed diesel engines. Chinese destroyers have French sonar, anti-submarine-warfare helicopters and surface-to-air missiles. Above the ...


Exclusive: China trying to undercut Germany on submarine ...

reuters /.../us-china-egypt-submarines-exclus...

2015/09/15 - China is trying to sell two submarines to Egypt that are cheaper than vessels on offer from Germany, industry ... long had friendly ties, and China supplied Egypt with four Ming-class diesel-electric submarines in the 1980s.


Why China's Submarine Force Still Lags Behind | The ...

thediplomat /.../why-chinas-submarine-force-still-l...

2015/05/28 - The bulk of China's conventional sub armada consists of 13 Song-class (Type 039) diesel-attack subs and 13 ... the Song- and Yuan-class attack submarines are equipped with German-made state-of-the-art diesel engines ...


European Companies Are Supplying China With Billions In ...

businessinsider /european-companies-are-su...

2014/04/30 - Military experts believe the ship relies on diesel engines produced by German firm MTU. ... German-designed engines chosen for their quietness power virtually all non-nuclear Chinese submarines and several classes of ...


China to build 15 more Yuan-class submarines with German ...

chinadailymail /.../china-to-build-15-more-[/url]...

2013/04/11 - In comparison, “China may plan to construct 15 additional Yuan-class attack submarines, based on German diesel engine purchases. “It is said the Yuan-class submarines could be equipped with air-independent propulsion ...

The first result shows French involvement in addition to Germans. They are using interesting excuses to sell their hardware. Sonar? No, it's a fish detector!
Or these diesel engines are for commercial surface ships with unique requirements......... :rolleyes:

Sorry can' post url's, yet
 
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t68

t68

Well-Known Member
phreeky said:
Not long ago most on this forum for tipping the Japanese to win the contract, but now that seems to have flipped to the Germans. Why the sudden change?
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I'm firmily in the option J deptment, but just see the smoke and mirrors campaign of the slick German PR machine will ultimately sway the minds who have the final say. Australian politics has a track record of not listening to those in defence, most notebly was the desicion of NH-90 over Blackhawk the AWD hull of F100 over the preferred Baby Burke and so on.
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

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Verified Defense Pro
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #106
phreeky said:
Not long ago most on this forum for tipping the Japanese to win the contract, but now that seems to have flipped to the Germans. Why the sudden change?
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no, read the responses carefully - there is no shift in the view that the japanese option is better - the politics around winning the contract has been explained a number of times


phreeky said:
There are often claims on this forum that the French do much worse without references given.
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actually we've all been pretty specific on the success of all french platforms selected for the ADF - every French platform has been an integration nightmare

Every project that blows out on costs blows out invariably due to integration and then the resultant support and sustainment costs

go back through any ADF service thread and you'll see specific examples given

I'm happy to add even more detail from my contracting days when I was working offshore - but its a career suicide process to talk about current projects as an employee of the govt.

none of us are that stupid
 
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rossfrb_1

Member
ABC TV news running with the fact that Malcom T has apparently flown to Adelaide and is expected to make an announcement about SEA1000 later this morning.
ABC also suggest the French option is currently the preferred one. Later the line is that the Japanese option has been rejected leaving just the French and Germans.

Wonder how much of this is disinformation from government sources?
Would have been a good opportunity for government to to set in place a mechanism to check for leaks amongst its ranks.
rb
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
rossfrb_1 said:
Wonder how much of this is disinformation from government sources?
Would have been a good opportunity for government to to set in place a mechanism to check for leaks amongst its ranks.
rb
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most likely are using the canary trap
 
D

DaveS124

Active Member
Here's the article from The Australian.


Malcolm Turnbull’s surprise Adelaide visit for subs announcement

The Australian
April 26, 2016 12:00AM


Malcolm Turnbull will make a surprise visit to Adelaide today to announce the winning bid to build the navy’s new submarines.

Cabinet is expected to hold a phone hook-up this morning to approve the decision by the *National Security Committee *before it is announced by the Prime *Minister. Most or all of the boats will be built in South Australia. The Australian understands that the French bid was regarded as stronger than those from Japan and Germany.

At $50 billion, this will be Australia’s biggest-ever defence project and it is considered huge even by international standards. Once the decision is announced the successful company will plan a major extension to the construction *facilities at the ASC shipbuilding site in Adelaide.

Construction of the sub*marines will involve jobs for *between 1200 and 2000 workers in roles ranging from submarine design to high-level welding.

Australian workers may be trained overseas while construction of the Adelaide plant is completed.

French company DCNS is *offering a 4500-tonne conventionally powered version of its 4700-tonne nuclear-powered Barracuda, to be called the Shortfin Barracuda.

DCNS believes its design is the most advanced, with a pump-jet propulsion system it says is much quieter than a propeller, making the submarine harder to detect.

German company TKMS is *offering Australia a 4000-tonne sub of a new design using technology tested in its 2000-tonne boats. With that comes a promise of a digital manufacturing model for the nation to be introduced on the back of the submarine project.

Japan’s government, in partnership with a consortium headed by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, is offering an evolved version of its 4000-tonne Soryu-class submarine, which would be lengthened by six to eight metres, mostly to provide the space for additional fuel and batteries to increase its range and for roomier crew *accommodation.
 
King Wally

King Wally

Active Member
I'd be happy with either German or Japanese bids..... but please don't let the French get this one!

My gut feel is the Germans are about to win it. I have this quiet inclination that Team Turnbull really put a lot of energy into analysing the "captains call" J option to such an extent he nearly wished for Abbott to be found lacking. The Germans ticked a lot of boxes and for a guy like Turnbull I think he may have liked what he saw. Guess we will all find out soon.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
rockitten said:
The story about German selling submarine diesel to china is well covered in open source materials.

For other stuff I mentioned, if my memory serve me correctly, there was an article from ASPI talking about them. The conclusion is that Japan is a more secure supplier than the other 2.
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I'm cool about the diesel's because they are stock standard world wide. However when you mention AIP technology that piqued my interest. What ASPI article then? Yes I am asking specifics because generalisations on specifics like this are sometimes misleading.

This topic is highly important to Australia and there is enough misinformation in the public arena put out by the media and other pundits who have vested interests in the outcome of this competition. Hence my wanting some actual sources posted This is not directed at anyone specifically but generally.
 
Boagrius

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
The Australian is reporting that France has won the RAN sub bid. Would be very interested to hear from those "in the know" on the forum - is this legit or another "33% chance I'm right anyway" guess?
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
Boagrius said:
The Australian is reporting that France has won the RAN sub bid. Would be very interested to hear from those "in the know" on the forum - is this legit or another "33% chance I'm right anyway" guess?
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we should find out today as the PM is supposedly on his way to ADL this morning, hope its only speculation but print media don't like to have egg on their faces.
 
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Beam

Member
Flew to Brisbane on the weekend - At brisbane Airport there was an ad on the big screens for Mitsubishi spruiking their defence projects, both submarines and destroyers....
 
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