The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

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rnrp

New Member
RobWilliams said:
Sounds like the DLF-3B decoy system, that's what the Type 23 has exposed as the torpedo tubes are built into the structure. You've gotta look real hard for the circular hatch which pops open and the torpedo launches out.

They're ASW decoys, you see 'em around the VLS on more modern Type 26 models.

I'm glad some progress is being made on Harpoon, initial reports were that they'd be fitted by the end of last year. Still, hopefully the modification is made to all ships and they move the 4 sets of Harpoon around.
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Think you might find that dlf 3 is actually a soft kill decoy for asm, it's inflatable and has a very large RCS, nothing to do with ASW. The 23 have their torpedo tube fixed at the forward end of the hanger structure in fixed athwart ships tubes.
Happy to be proved wrong though.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Whoops, my bad! Still, at least my brain remembered the torp tubes were enclosed in the structure.
 
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S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
davealders said:
The queen elizabeth class aircraft carriers can supposedly only take up to 40 aircraft, this confuses me as the nimitz class which allthough being bigger is capable of taking 80+ aircraft.
My question: can the queen elizabeth take more than 40 aircraft and if so, why will they only carry 40.
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The QE's are designed to take around 40 aircraft and maintain a high sortie rate, with all aircraft parked below deck for maintenance. They can surge to around 50 I believe, and in a war emergency perhaps even more but the need is unlikely to be there.

If you look at airwings on US carriers, they're greatly reduced from the levels they operated at in the 70's and 80's - modern carrier aircraft are more reliable, have a lower attrition rate through accidents and maintenance issues, and many more roles are covered by less types - which means fewer aircraft can be carried.
 
t68

t68

Well-Known Member
StobieWan said:
The QE's are designed to take around 40 aircraft and maintain a high sortie rate, with all aircraft parked below deck for maintenance. They can surge to around 50 I believe, and in a war emergency perhaps even more but the need is unlikely to be there.

If you look at airwings on US carriers, they're greatly reduced from the levels they operated at in the 70's and 80's - modern carrier aircraft are more reliable, have a lower attrition rate through accidents and maintenance issues, and many more roles are covered by less types - which means fewer aircraft can be carried.
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From memory 36 JCA was the miniuim aircraft numbers in an medium to high intensity operation for Strike, CAP etc

While getting two operational will be moral boosting, I still believe 3 should have been your minimum numbers on a rotational basis and being able to surge two for 24 operation without crew burnout for a limited time
 
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StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
3 carriers of around CVS size was talked about as part of the options but three carriers of CVF size was never on the table. Too much to buy and no money to crew them.
 
StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
StobieWan said:
3 carriers of around CVS size was talked about as part of the options but three carriers of CVF size was never on the table. Too much to buy and no money to crew them.
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2 Full sized carriers still put the UK ahead of everyone except the US. Ideally a 3rd ship capable of fixed wing operations (JC1 or invincible style) but perhaps with an amphibious capability would round it out. You could still conduct 24 hr ops, just not at 100% tempo 24/7.

I would imagine anything requiring that commitment and allies would be able to provide something to assist.
 
S

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I'd like to see a replacement for Ocean but suspect she'll go as scheduled and we'll see two CVF with very occasional moments when both are crewed, but mainly, one up, one down, much as Ark and Eagle ran.

And yeah, two large, modern carriers with fifth gen jets is a very capable force to build from. There's not a lot of countries in the world could withstand one of those lurking off the coastline.

I suspect that if ops stretched beyond the endurance of a single carrier, land based assets could have been moved into position or an alternate allied asset swapped into place if need be. There's way and means.
 
R

Riga

New Member
StobieWan said:
3 carriers of around CVS size was talked about as part of the options but three carriers of CVF size was never on the table. Too much to buy and no money to crew them.
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Well I was talking to someone the other day who had been talking to somebody else and they said they had heard...

Sell the QEC, France and Brazil 1 each; buy 3 America class - which would then cover the loss of Ocean, and give far better flexibility and cover for the future loss of Albion and Bulwark - are we going to be fighting wars which need an entire commando deployed? SDSR2015, you read it here first.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
I really hope that was sarcasm ;)

I've lost count how many times our carriers "will" be sold to India/France/Brazil.
 
kev 99

kev 99

Member
Riga said:
Well I was talking to someone the other day who had been talking to somebody else and they said they had heard...

Sell the QEC, France and Brazil 1 each; buy 3 America class - which would then cover the loss of Ocean, and give far better flexibility and cover for the future loss of Albion and Bulwark - are we going to be fighting wars which need an entire commando deployed? SDSR2015, you read it here first.
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That doesn't even make sense; the option of selling a QEC to France and Brazil has been done to death on forums for years now, neither of those countries are buying F35b so buying a STOVL carrier is just pointless.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Riga said:
Well I was talking to someone the other day who had been talking to somebody else and they said they had heard...

Sell the QEC, France and Brazil 1 each; buy 3 America class - which would then cover the loss of Ocean, and give far better flexibility and cover for the future loss of Albion and Bulwark - are we going to be fighting wars which need an entire commando deployed? SDSR2015, you read it here first.
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Sell them to who? You need a customer, & there aren't any. The choices are keep them or scrap them.

And the America class? Even with a ski-jump, it'd have a fraction of the aviation capability. The flight deck is half the area, it's a fair bit slower, three of them would cost more than the two QE class you suggest we throw away, & it needs a big crew. It'd be much cheaper & give more capability just to replace Ocean. There are a couple of LHDs which might be going spare across the Channel - one of them'd do, Or a Juan Carlos class, which would also provide a spare deck for F-35s.

Albion & Bulwark, alternating in service, should be good for at least another 20 years, BTW.
 
R

Riga

New Member
kev 99 said:
That doesn't even make sense; the option of selling a QEC to France and Brazil has been done to death on forums for years now, neither of those countries are buying F35b so buying a STOVL carrier is just pointless.
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I do take your point.
Being serious.
How seriously did you take the cost of conversion of the carriers a few years back? I read, what I take to be informed comment, suggesting the cost was massively inflated because Big and Expensive would actually lose out on the deal and therefore bumped up the price.
 
RobWilliams

RobWilliams

Super Moderator
Staff member
Riga said:
Dear Mods
I promise to behave in future.

Did excite some comment though. However, my lesson is learned.
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Nah don't worry about it, it's just it's an argument which has actually been done more times than I can count and it just gets a bit frustrating when it keeps cropping up :)
 
S

swerve

Super Moderator
RobWilliams said:
Lockheed Martin have officially released their radar partner and actual sensor set they're using for the Crowsnest tender.

Lockheed Martin rolls out Crowsnest solution - IHS Jane's 360

IAI Elta has been confirmed as their radar supplier with their EL/M-2052 AESA radar.

Seems like a good system, here's the product page.

http://www.iai.co.il/sip_storage/files/4/36834.pdf
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What I find curious (as with the APG-81 based proposal) is the idea of X-band AEW using a fighter set designed for precise targeting, because of range, & the fact that RCS reduction in use on fighters seems to be concentrated on exactly that band. Surely, what AEW needs is detection & tracking range, rather than the ability to aim a missile. That's someone else's job.
 
N

Nick underscore

Member
swerve said:
What I find curious (as with the APG-81 based proposal) is the idea of X-band AEW using a fighter set designed for precise targeting, because of range, & the fact that RCS reduction in use on fighters seems to be concentrated on exactly that band. Surely, what AEW needs is detection & tracking range, rather than the ability to aim a missile. That's someone else's job.
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Maybe platform will become AEW&C such as fixed wing assets. Is this not adding to the AEW capabilty?

Would be handy capabilty, assuming development costs stack up and the future of UCAV/S maturity
 
ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
swerve said:
What I find curious (as with the APG-81 based proposal) is the idea of X-band AEW using a fighter set designed for precise targeting, because of range, & the fact that RCS reduction in use on fighters seems to be concentrated on exactly that band. Surely, what AEW needs is detection & tracking range, rather than the ability to aim a missile. That's someone else's job.
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Precise targeting is only one of the modes. This seems to be a multi function radar that is highly flexible in both search and TI. If/when the RN gets CEC it will extend the engagement envelope exponentially and give an RN TG a real advantage when operating independently.
 
V

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
X band is also the the band of choice for horizon search as seen with SPQ9B on upgraded Ticonderogas, the RANs AWDs and a number of large amphibs while the DDG-1000s are using it for volume search as well.
 
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