Royal Air Force [RAF] discussions and updates

[swerve]

Spain and Greece operate original P-3B, most Spanish models upgraded with EADS CASA FITS.

IIRC the Spanish put theirs (ex-Norwegian) through a major upgrade & renovation: structural overhaul, new cockpit, FITS plus new sensors - the works. Sold the same upgrade to Brazil.

 

[RobWilliams]

The UK will begin mods to our Sentinel R1 aircraft to have an over-sea capability, contract signing to happen mid-2015.

UK to upgrade Sentinel R.1s for maritime operations - IHS Jane's 360

Bit ominous really considering it's less than 7 months until the next general election and the following SDSR. Doesn't bode well - IMO - for an MPA purchase if you're upgrading other assets to do the job.

But there's an interesting caveat in the analysis which suggests using a Sentinel MR1 for every day maritime patrol/current capability which would free up a limited number of higher end MPA like the P-8 for expeditionary ops or the likes of escorting our SSBNs in and out of port.

 

[RobWilliams]

Bit of an update on Paveway IV enhancements which will result in a bunker busting warhead by next year. The goal is that Paveway IV will be the backbone of the UK's guided bomb inventory and this variant would replace Paveway III although i'm not convinced that a 500lb warhead can have a comparable perpetrator capability as a 2000lb warhead.

RAF To Be Equipped With Bunker Busting Version of Paveway IV | Defense News | defensenews.com

Also, tomorrow is supposedly going to be the day when EF nations finally sign a development contract for Selex-ES to develop Captor-E.

Interesting point of Captor-E is that it's an AESA mounted on a movable fixture which itself can be steered.

Action Pending on AESA Radar for Typhoon | Defense News | defensenews.com

 

[swerve]

The Typhoon radar has long been meant to be put on a repositioner to give it a wide field of view. The Gripen E radar also has one, though not, I think, the same. The RAF is said to like the off-axis view that mechanical scanning gives. Perhaps some other air forces agree.

 

[StobieWan]

The UK will begin mods to our Sentinel R1 aircraft to have an over-sea capability, contract signing to happen mid-2015.

UK to upgrade Sentinel R.1s for maritime operations - IHS Jane's 360

Bit ominous really considering it's less than 7 months until the next general election and the following SDSR. Doesn't bode well - IMO - for an MPA purchase if you're upgrading other assets to do the job.

But there's an interesting caveat in the analysis which suggests using a Sentinel MR1 for every day maritime patrol/current capability which would free up a limited number of higher end MPA like the P-8 for expeditionary ops or the likes of escorting our SSBNs in and out of port.

That might plug in very nicely with the proposed suggestion of a mix of kit however - it's already been suggested that a patrol capability might not be exclusively made up of MPA. Maybe they're just laying in the tools now?

 

[swerve]

Could be.

The Sentinel upgrade should be relatively cheap, the cost of operating the aircraft shouldn't be as much as a P-8 or equivalent - & the aircraft & infrastructure are in place & paid for. It seems a sensible move. It restores some of the lost capability earlier than buying new aircraft would, & could enable us to get by with slightly fewer MPAs later.

 

[KiwiRob]

A case of poor planning, the chickens are coming home to roost and all that, I'd call this an embarassing situation for the UK.

NATO allies sent patrol planes to help Britain scour the waters off its western Scottish coast after a submarine's periscope was spotted, in a search reminiscent of the Cold War, media reported.


Britain's Ministry of Defence (MoD) said it had received help from NATO allies in an operation, but declined to go into further details.


Reports that searches took place in late November and early December, which first appeared in Aviation Week, come amid growing tensions between Western powers and Russia over its role in the Ukraine crisis.


A squadron of Russian warships entered the English Channel last month and Sweden said it had proof a foreign submarine was operating illegally in its waters in October.


A periscope was spotted in waters where Royal Navy submarines normally surface as they head in or out of a base at Faslane, home to Britain's nuclear deterrent, Aviation Week reported.


It said planes from France, the United States and Canada were involved in the search.


"NATO partners have provided assistance for the operation of maritime patrol aircraft from RAF Lossiemouth for a limited period with the Royal Navy. We do not discuss the detail of maritime operations," the MoD said in a statement late on Tuesday.


Britain has not had its own specialist maritime patrol aircraft since scrapping its Nimrod program as part of a defense review in 2010.

http://www.maritime-executive.com/a...n-Allies-to-Help-in-Submarine-Hunt-2014-12-10

 

[A4kscooter]

At least it proves the alliance works but how long after the first report of a sub did it take this aircraft to get on scene?
In hindsight could the Nimrod MR2 still be operational if Labour hadn't withdrawn the fleet or possibly we could have leased USN Orions or French Atlantiques supported by the Germans or French etc
What a strange country we live in when we have nuclear subs leaving and entering port with limited air support in the form of ASW, we are building 2 × aircraft carriers which we will struggle to equip with sufficient fast jets

 

[RobWilliams]

News like this is good for defence, a resurgent Russia is good for UK defence spending.

Whether these will be needed or not is another matter, it's another thing to chalk down to SDSR 2015.

Interesting thing was one of our Sentinels was involved, presumably to have a crack at spotting a periscope.

 

[RobWilliams]

First Storm Shadow released from a Typhoon has occurred, it happened in November and was tracked from the point of weapons release to impact by radar.

Eurofighter Typhoon | FIRST STORM SHADOW MISSILE RELEASE FROM A EUROFIGHTER TYPHOON IS A SUCCESS

It's part of the P2E package.

Thing is with Typhoon and Storm Shadow, you can carry a pair but you have to sacrifice a pair of external fuel tanks. The ultimate goal is if Typhoon wants to be able to conduct long range strikes, that's going to require conformal fuel tanks to make up for the reduction.

In the long term, that's a role which should be left to whatever comes out of the Anglo/French FCAS collaboration. Cruise missile strikes are the opening shots.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/meteor-firing-trials-go-active-with-typhoon-406948/

Fresh batch of a Meteor test firings with the ultimate goal of full integration on the UK fleet by 2018. The integration path for Meteor on F35 is up in the air so may have dual stocks of Meteor and AMRAAM for a period.

 

[RobWilliams]

This happened a while ago now, but the first fittings of Typhoon with Brimstone have been conducted. Two sets of triplet launchers under each wing with a Paveway IV on each too. Add in 2 1000ltr fuel tanks, a Litening III LDP, 2 ASRAAM and 4 AMRAAM/Meteor and you've got quite a nice bomb load.

Typhoon tries Brimstone 2 missiles for size - 12/16/2014 - Flight Global

One thing I'd like to be seen developed would be the same setup as the French have on their Rafales with AASM, they've got a fixture which allows 2 AASM to be mounted in each hard point.

I'd like to see it, but we need to get Typhoon set up with Brimstone 2/Storm Shadow/Meteor/AESA radar ASAP. Typhoon currently has an OSD of 2030, well, the older ones perhaps, but the T3 and the later T2 will reach their full capability in 2018-2020 roughly.

Money also needs to be out aside for weapon integration in the F35 too . . .

 

[Nick underscore]

In a recent interview, a Japanese Defence Ministry official suggested that the UK could buy the P-1 for our MPA requirement

Japan’s Defense Ministry Broadens Arms-Export Ambitions - Japan Real Time - WSJ

This has cropped up again. Not sure on the platform numbers representing the quoted upper figure of £600mio (Maybe 6-8).

Could be a promising unsolicited offer or at the very least, leverage on a future P-8 deal

Japan offers Britain submarine-hunting planes - Telegraph

Japan UK Arms Exclusive - Reuters

Note; P-1 for JMSDF is priced approx $170mio USD.. Not sure if that is costed at full-life..

 

[KiwiRob]

Since it's a purpose built maritime patrol aircraft there is probably a decent chance it could be a better aircraft for the job than a modified 737, a design which is decades old.

 

[ASSAIL]

Since it's a purpose built maritime patrol aircraft there is probably a decent chance it could be a better aircraft for the job than a modified 737, a design which is decades old.

Illogical, the P3 was a modified Lockeed Electra which was decades old, the Nimrod was a Comet which was decades old, the KC 30 is a B 767 which is decades old.
The P8 is a 737 airframe which is an evolved design which has been continually upgraded/modified/improved. Shouldn't have too many unknowns by now, therefor, ideal.

 

[swerve]

KC-30 is not Boeing 767.
KC-46 is a 767, a 1970s design in service since 1981.

P-3 is based on a 1950s design, Lockheed Electra.
Nimrod was a 1960s reworking of a 1950s major redesign (Comet 4) of a late 1940s design (Comet 1). MRA4 was a 1990s aircraft incorporating parts from the 1960s aircraft.

P-8 is based on a 1990s major reworking of the Boeing 737, an originally 1960s design.

 

[ASSAIL]

KC-30 is not Boeing 767.
KC-46 is a 767, a 1970s design in service since 1981.

P-3 is based on a 1950s design, Lockheed Electra.
Nimrod was a 1960s reworking of a 1950s major redesign (Comet 4) of a late 1940s design (Comet 1). MRA4 was a 1990s aircraft incorporating parts from the 1960s aircraft.

P-8 is based on a 1990s major reworking of the Boeing 737, an originally 1960s design.

Thanks Swerve, brain fade on my part but I'm sure the point has been made.

 

[KiwiRob]

P-8 is based on a 1990s major reworking of the Boeing 737, an originally 1960s design.

The 737 can trace it roots back to the 707 and 727, it was developed as a shorter, lower-cost twin-engined airliner derived from Boeing's 707 and 727.

Considering that the 737 is made for high altitude cruise at close to Mach 0.8 and the P1 and its engines are purpose build for maritime patrol it would be a major screw-up if it doesn't have some significant advantage somewhere.

 

[John Fedup]

Since it's a purpose built maritime patrol aircraft there is probably a decent chance it could be a better aircraft for the job than a modified 737, a design which is decades old.

As others have already noted, the 737 is an evolved design with over 6000 built and many more to come. It will be a good MPA. The P1 is a 4 engine jet. The twin engine P-8 (737) makes more sense as the current low fuel costs won't last long.

 

[KiwiRob]

As others have already noted, the 737 is an evolved design with over 6000 built and many more to come. It will be a good MPA. The P1 is a 4 engine jet. The twin engine P-8 (737) makes more sense as the current low fuel costs won't last long.

The basic airframe is still essentially the same one that Boeing used for the 707. Hang new engines off it, redesign the wings, upgrade the avionics but old is old. I still believe an airframe built specifically for maritime patrol is going to be a better airframe for maritime patrol than a converted 737 (or A320).

BTW the 737 has had 4 generations, Original, Classic, Next Generation and now MAX

 

[RobWilliams]

Bear in mind that the ASW philosophy for the P-8, it's not a bird which needs to cruise at lower altitudes to deploy torpedos or sonobuoys.

The torp wing kits for the Mk54 allow drops from 30,000ft. There are studies dating back to the '80s about deploying sonobuoys from 30,000ft and the measures/recommendations for getting reasonable drop accuracy from those heights.