Juan Carlos / Canberra Class LHD

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StingrayOZ

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Left field question..

What modifications would need to be made to the JC1 design to allow it to perform amphibious functions and carrier functions (3-6 aircraft). Could you extend her by ~25 metres and be able to fit both functions into a ship ~32,000t.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Left field question..

What modifications would need to be made to the JC1 design to allow it to perform amphibious functions and carrier functions (3-6 aircraft). Could you extend her by ~25 metres and be able to fit both functions into a ship ~32,000t.
Could it even be pluged, the lower half of the hull seemed to have vertical modules but the top half seemed to be laid like bricks to create moe strength, be interesting to hear from alexisa on that one
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Left field question..

What modifications would need to be made to the JC1 design to allow it to perform amphibious functions and carrier functions (3-6 aircraft). Could you extend her by ~25 metres and be able to fit both functions into a ship ~32,000t.
It would probably be less risky to buy a modified America class with a dock and manpower saving features. In fact an America including hybrid electric drive, electric rather than pneumatic and also a reduction in hydraulic systems, automated watch stations etc. Could have a substantial reduction in crewing requirements as well as being cheaper to own and operate while starting off with the extra size and capability desired.
 

StingrayOZ

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Could it even be pluged, the lower half of the hull seemed to have vertical modules but the top half seemed to be laid like bricks to create moe strength, be interesting to hear from alexisa on that one
I've heard it being done to cruise ships. But looking at the cut away I think your right in that it looks more like overlapping parts. So maybe not possible for existing ships, but possible for new builds?

Volk said:
It would probably be less risky to buy a modified America class with a dock and manpower saving features. In fact an America including hybrid electric drive, electric rather than pneumatic and also a reduction in hydraulic systems, automated watch stations etc. Could have a substantial reduction in crewing requirements as well as being cheaper to own and operate while starting off with the extra size and capability desired.
Definitely less risky. But would it save manpower? JC1 is has fairly low crewing requirements. The idea is that you could add the capability, with just aircrew additional. America is based off a ship designed to operate with 2000+ marines, so many areas it would be more than double what we require (possibly?). American ships are pretty crew heavy at the best of times.

Would a ~33,000t ship with significant risk be attractive over a much more capable ship with less risk at 45,000t. At ~$3.4 b each, I would imagine a modified JC1 would be much cheaper for a new build.

Could you even fit the additional aviation in a 25m plug? Or would you also need to look at lifts and what not? I would suppose its possible to have another lift in that plug?
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Is it easier to enlarge a design or shrink one?
A modified smaller Queen Elizabeth down to say 260m
 

aussienscale

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Have not officially seen anything, but I would guarantee Navantia have plans ready to go for numerous variations, remember the original intent was that Pda was going to be replaced by a new build SCS design, and there were rumours that it was going to be based off a modified JC1 hull design :)

GFC put an end to that

Cheers
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Is it easier to enlarge a design or shrink one?
A modified smaller Queen Elizabeth down to say 260m
I would imagine making it bigger is a lot easier. We will already be operating the same equipment and machinery as jc1. There would be no reduction in amphibous capability and training and spares would be the same.
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Have not officially seen anything, but I would guarantee Navantia have plans ready to go for numerous variations, remember the original intent was that Pda was going to be replaced by a new build SCS design, and there were rumours that it was going to be based off a modified JC1 hull design :)

GFC put an end to that

Cheers

That's correct I remember see an art concept it looked like the existing design minus the well dock and a couple of decks from memory
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Have not officially seen anything, but I would guarantee Navantia have plans ready to go for numerous variations, remember the original intent was that Pda was going to be replaced by a new build SCS design, and there were rumours that it was going to be based off a modified JC1 hull design :)

GFC put an end to that

Cheers

That's correct I remember seeing an art concept it looked like the existing design minus the well dock and a couple of decks from memory
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
That's correct I remember seeing an art concept it looked like the existing design minus the well dock and a couple of decks from memory
I don't know how official that one was (looked like an artists impression, in pencil?).

The idea would be for minimal changes from the current JC1/Canberra design, just a 20 m lengthening (and Perhaps an enlargement of the front elevator to take 2 aircraft). Lengthening the hanger by ~20m, the vehicle deck by 20m, accommodation etc as well (additional crew space). Food and weapon bunkerage could also be enlarged and there could be additional JP-5 storage.

However, I would imagine there would be issues with a longer build, I don't imagine it would sit on Blue Marlin. Slower top speed etc. The idea would be JC1 operating costs/crewing, but closer to US LHD levels of capability (Well either greater amphibious capability or amphibious and Fix air wing, or superior pure carrier capability.
 

Volkodav

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I don't know how official that one was (looked like an artists impression, in pencil?).

The idea would be for minimal changes from the current JC1/Canberra design, just a 20 m lengthening (and Perhaps an enlargement of the front elevator to take 2 aircraft). Lengthening the hanger by ~20m, the vehicle deck by 20m, accommodation etc as well (additional crew space). Food and weapon bunkerage could also be enlarged and there could be additional JP-5 storage.

However, I would imagine there would be issues with a longer build, I don't imagine it would sit on Blue Marlin. Slower top speed etc. The idea would be JC1 operating costs/crewing, but closer to US LHD levels of capability (Well either greater amphibious capability or amphibious and Fix air wing, or superior pure carrier capability.
Lengthening a hull can actually increase speed without requiring an increase in power, Batch III Type 42s are a good example of this.
 

StingrayOZ

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Lengthening a hull can actually increase speed without requiring an increase in power, Batch III Type 42s are a good example of this.
How much of a boost did they get? I wonder if they would use less fuel to travel at the same speed? I would assume the speed benefit would only hold if you didn't load them up too much (ie would probably be true if loaded as a carrier). I would imagine speed wouldn't be too much different either way (ie not a deal breaker).

Other benefits:
Another Helo spot (7 with ski jump)
Possibly another spot for M22 operations
Possibly another spot for Chinook operations
Possible a Larger lift
Additional JP5/Food/Water/munitions bunkerage
Additional troop/crew accommodation

The idea would be that as a LHD plus, it could basically perform some of what Choules does (in addition to the regular LHD amphibious) if Choules is not available. If Choules is available (or that level of amphibious capability is not required) then it would be able to support fixed wing operations (limited) and amphibious capability(approximately equal to a regular LHD). It won't replace choules, it would just provide bare minimum additional capacity.

Otherwise it could provide basic aviation capability at most times.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Rather than substantially modifying an existing LHD design to become a compromised carrier, that is no longer an LHD either, it may actually be cheaper, or at least better value for money, and less of a compromise, to acquire a purpose built carrier with savings made through the ships systems specified and selected.

A purpose designed hull would offer better performance and lower fuel consumption for a given speed than a modified LHD, it would be better tailored for efficient aviation operations, reducing the crew required to achieve a given capability and its combat system could be tailored on the assumption it would always be escorted by an AWD or air defence enhanced ANZAC replacement. Ships systems would be tailored for the crew an air group, with no need to provide excess capacity for a large number of embarked troops.

A despeced Cavour or QEC could well work out to be more affordable and better value for money than a stretched and modified JCI. For that matter it may even be easier to modify the base Hyuga or Izummo to fit the bill than to rework a LHD. Purpose designed ships such as PdA, Garibaldi, even the tiny Chakri Naruebet, appear to offer much greater aviation capability for their size than larger, aviation capable, amphibious ships.

By all means buy a third LHD to increase overall capability but once you start modifying it to become something else you are probably better off going for a different existing design or starting with a clean sheet.
 

alexsa

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I don't know how official that one was (looked like an artists impression, in pencil?).

The idea would be for minimal changes from the current JC1/Canberra design, just a 20 m lengthening (and Perhaps an enlargement of the front elevator to take 2 aircraft). Lengthening the hanger by ~20m, the vehicle deck by 20m, accommodation etc as well (additional crew space). Food and weapon bunkerage could also be enlarged and there could be additional JP-5 storage.

However, I would imagine there would be issues with a longer build, I don't imagine it would sit on Blue Marlin. Slower top speed etc. The idea would be JC1 operating costs/crewing, but closer to US LHD levels of capability (Well either greater amphibious capability or amphibious and Fix air wing, or superior pure carrier capability.
There are a number of issues in the pervious post that deserve comment:

Jumboising the LHD - possible and best done in the centre transverse section at its widest point on very fine hull forms. If the centre body of a ship is a 'regular' shape then it can be plugged anywhere along this length. The LHD design has a arc running along the curve of the bilge (look at the image on the Blue Marlin) that appears to suggests there is only one point to cut

The issue with plugging ships is the carry throught structure and catering for the additional hull stress of the added length. If you look at the three FFG7 that were extended aft this resulted in additional strengtherning along the hull.

All wasy best to build new where practical.

Revised design - Even if you build new and revise the design it is not as simple as you may think. This will have implications for the longtitudinal strength of the ship and, as noted, may impact performance. Not always in a bad way, I was associated with a company that plugged some small box boats that were short and stout and increased their speed for the same installed power as longtitudinal stablity was improved as was water flow through the prop and over the rudder.

However, in the case of the LHD this may necesitate a significant redesign as adding 20m to a 32m beam may cause some flexing. Just speculation at this stage. Noting the vessel is 230.82m long but the flight deck is only 202m then a simpler option may be to extend the flight and elvator further aft (not that the latter may be able to go too far further aft) to provide additional length without changing the hydronamic perforamce of the hull. It is worth noting that removal of the dock and associated pumps, gate and structure will free up weight, space (including hanger space if you use the lower vehicle deck) and tankage and would allow a continous structure across the stern (same strength for less weight).

Speed - I do not know what the limiting hull speed of the LHD is but given the hull form the block cooefficient is not high compared to some containerships. Moderate additional speed (not talking 30 knots but 22 to 24 may be acheivable) with more powerful gensets and higher rated pods may be an option. As an air capaable ship additional generator capcity may be required but the removal of the well structure may allow some fiddling with spaces to allow some auxillary machinery to be move to provide more space in the main machiery spaces (mucking about with exhaust routes and air intakes can really complicate your life) for bigger units. Again just speculation.

Bigger lifts - When you cur holes in strength decks this gets really interesting. Doubling the size of the fwd lift would reduce hanger area, intrude into the launch landing area and would result in a weight penalty for the structure required to reinforce the deck. You would ahve to wonder if was worth it.

Adding a ski jump to an existing ship - Doable as has been proven by the RN but not as simple as it seems. Adding quite a few hundred tonnes on the bow will impact:
  • Bending mements
  • Longitudinal stability (heavier by the bow, do you need to compensate with weight aft)
  • Torsion forces (as it is offset)
  • Transverse stability (increase in CoG and off set)
  • Uplift capacity unless you increase the allow a deeper draft ......... which may impact performance
As I said all doable but not simple
 

ASSAIL

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ASPI has just published a PDF (200Kb) 9 page report on 'NO F-35Bs on LHDs' so go here for it: [I'll read it soon :) ]

Jump jets for the ADF? | Australian Policy Online
It wasn't a seminal document and said as much in the paper. I also believe the paper was written with a pre-supposed "don't buy" POV.
I have previously supported the concept of flexibility that F35B's would give to Australian Strategic endeavours and I still believe that some time in the future some should be purchased for use on the LHD's in various scenarios and when not used they will provide additional flexibility to the RAAF.

The authors resort to the same tired argument about range/payload cf other two versions but ignore the reality of a mobile operating platform.
Their cost analysis uses 2012 data (105 USD/unit). I can only assume that this has changed downwards and will continue to do so if Aust. makes future purchases at say 10yrs +.
They also argue that the LHD will need escort protection but make it sound as if this is an added cost which would not occur in an amphibian role.
They cite certain examples that there would be no tactical or strategic benefit in an Australian LHD F35B capability and I agree with these examples. However there could be other occasions such as renewed confrontation with Indonesia over West Papua/PNG border incursions where modern aircraft may oppose a task force and the US stays right away or the Australian government may wish to indulge in some good old gunboat diplomacy to create a positive outcome (speak softly and carry a big stick). A strategic analysis would cover a much larger range of possibilities.

Having stated the above, I do agree with the conclusion that before any decision is made one way or the other, a proper strategic study, which includes a cost benefit analysis, has to be made.
 

alexsa

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I find the 'informal' assessment of cost to 'operate' the F-35 of 500 million a little perplexing given the cost break down is not provided. It also depends on how you term 'operate'.

Agree a considered assessment is required but what I read before my eyes glazed over of this paper is it is not a considered assessment but a POV where the points made are framed in a way to support that opinion rather than a careful consideration.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
alexsa said:
pages of stuff
Wow, thanks Alexa.I will have to sit down and have a look at some of your points. There is a lot there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxDG2PyJsVY

Video is up on youtube to.
Pretty much what you guys have been saying ...Money could be spent on other assets.
The Author Dr Benjamin Schreer dose raise the question for purchasing Osprey.
Interesting paper and video. They bring up some interesting points. Some I think that will lead to interesting discussions.

Carrier capability is certainly not cheap, nor a priority currently. I certainly think the discussions are interesting, as no doubt other countries are interested in operating more LHD's and many are or have expressed interest in operating possibly as a carrier. I don't see Australia getting a dedicate carrier anytime soon. However can see reasonable arguments for a 3rd LHD, and if that 3rd LHD could be "based on" the Canberra/JC1 design but meet both requirements then its chances may go from never, to unlikely but possible.

I am personally not in favor of the Osprey for Australia at this time, I think it may be worth assessing some of the osprey like aircraft the US is putting forward that are smaller, cheaper to run and operate.We certainly have need of that type of aircraft over F-35B's. Our Chinook fleet is tiny and in a region with pretty terrible air facilities and lots of ocean a tactical lifter like the Osprey would be very useful. Much faster than helicopters, much longer ranged, but can land and operate from ships, clearings, small islands, etc.

The JC1 can only really operate 1 Osprey (AFAIK), so I think its pretty unlikely purely for that reason.
 

rand0m

Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxDG2PyJsVY

Video is up on youtube to.
Pretty much what you guys have been saying ...Money could be spent on other assets.
The Author Dr Benjamin Schreer dose raise the question for purchasing Osprey.
I still can't quite fathom how we're now buying any AAV7's, I thought they would be part and parcel of an LHD. Weren't we also training in them off the USS Bonhomme Richard? Surely the yanks could simply donate a few off good will! :hehe
 
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