Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[htbrst]

I’d say it feasible but mostly an unrealistic option for the NZDF to convert some airframes to ARH.

Not trying to convert them to full blown ARH's, but there seems to be a bit of a gulf between the Mag-58 machine gun and Penguin if they find themselves needing to interdict something a bit smaller that might fire back - be it pirates or small boat threats etc

The US Navy used penguin on the old SH-60's, but moved to the Hellfire for the more modern MH-60's likely for similar reasons.

While I can see the utility in being able to provide a minor form of overwatch with a precision weapon when conducting landings from Canterbury, this indeed would be an expansion of the role they currently undertake.

 

[kiwi in exile]

I'm glad that they decided to get the new sprites but I'm a little surprised about the penguin. I know that there are advantages in the pengiun in terms of range and warhead, but replacing one 1970's designed missile with another 1970's designed missile seem a little funny. Especially when there are a number of other anti-ship missiles almost on the market. (MBDA FASGW/ANL, MBDA marte). Kind of seems like although we are taking a step ahead, we are potentially still a step behind.


Will the mavericks be retained/intergrated to the new helo's? In my mind the maverick is perhaps a more versatile asset for the Seasprites because of the broader range of targets and using a penguin on a small boat is overkill. Hopefully the upgraded frigates will get anti-ship missiles. Although this wasn't listed in the ANZAC tender. Would hate to see purchasing the penguin used as an excuse to not buy ship/MPA launched anti-ship missiles.

Upgrading the helos MAG 58's to 50 cals would be a good idea. Better range and power against small boats and soft skinned vehicles.

 

[ngatimozart]

I’d say it feasible but mostly an unrealistic option for the NZDF to convert some airframes to ARH. The US Army once planned a variant of Sea Sprite called the UH-2 Tomahawk, but if the NZDF ever needs an Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter either a Bell Kiowa Warrior or Boeing AH-6I would be ideal, another possibility is in the future will NH Industries make an armed gunship version of the NH-90 similar to a Blackhawk DAP.

Kaman H-2 "Tomahawk" helicopter - development history, photos, technical data

Boeing's AH-6i helicopter gunship revives and improves a 35 year old concept

http://www.army.mil/factfiles/equipment/aircraft/kiowa.html

The USN is pushing refurbished SH60Fs for sale at the moment. http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/rotorhub/laad-2013-us-navy-widens-sh-60f-sales-push/ Would it not be better to purchase say six of those and six DAP sets? They would solve some problems in that they are already marinised, the DAP will fit, they will be able to operate off Canterbury and I presume the FFHs. When not being used in that role can be utilised in utility role.

 

[Volkodav]

As I see it Penguin will dramatically increase the combat power of the RNZN as it will provide a massive boost to the OPVs in particular. The provision of a powerful missile and the advanced sensor suite on the Seasprites will more than make up for the lack of combat power of the ships themselves.

 

[t68]

The USN is pushing refurbished SH60Fs for sale at the moment. LAAD 2013: US Navy widens SH-60F sales push - News - Shephard Would it not be better to purchase say six of those and six DAP sets? They would solve some problems in that they are already marinised, the DAP will fit, they will be able to operate off Canterbury and I presume the FFHs. When not being used in that role can be utilised in utility role.

Probably would have been ideal if you purchased Seahawks for the utility role instead of NH-90 and if you keen to use rebuilt equipment, I am lead to believe that the ex ADF Blackhawks will be refurbished and sold off. MRH-90 looks good on paper but would have been more happy if the ADF stay with the Blackhawks/Seahawks for fleet commonality with the MH-60R.

I have had a look around and the NH-90 TTH version has the ability to use can be armed with internal mounted machine gun (7.62 or 12.7 mm) and 20mm cannon in pod. I would also imagine that the NFH version which can also be armed with anti-submarine torpedoes, air-to-surface missiles and air-to-air and I would imagine that the TTH would be able to some of these as well. What type of missiles it uses I haven’t come across that yet only that it can.

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6wsji1J9IQ"]Eurocopter - NH90 Tactical Transport Helicopter (TTH) & NH90 NATO Frigate Helicopter (NFH) [720p] - YouTube[/nomedia]

 

[Gibbo]

As I see it Penguin will dramatically increase the combat power of the RNZN as it will provide a massive boost to the OPVs in particular. The provision of a powerful missile and the advanced sensor suite on the Seasprites will more than make up for the lack of combat power of the ships themselves.

The only issue with the OPV's is that they weren't built with missile magazines nor equipped to man-handle the missiles on-board (ie: move them from magazine to chopper & lift up onto firing pontoon). However agreed - if there was the will this would be overcome & OPVs could pack a punch. Then again not being mil-spec vessels the RNZN would have to be very careful about the type of fight it picks with the OPVs.

 

[Norm]

Hot off the press:

Seasprite helicopter project approved | Scoop News

10 airframes to be purchased - 2 as spares
Maverick to be replaced with Penguin
First ones arrive late 2014, fully in service 2016
Cost: $147 million NZD ($120 USD) (plus missles, simulator, ship mods)
To be operated with a 3-man crew

Some nice photos of 4 soon to be NZ Seasprites at Karmans Bloomfield Hanger.
New Zealand To Buy Kaman Helicopters Returned By Australia - Courant.com

 

[KiwiRob]

So we are buying 10, I wonder what's happened to the 11th?

 

[ngatimozart]

So we are buying 10, I wonder what's happened to the 11th?

Don't know. Maybe they only just went for 10 and that's it.

That’s seems like a good deal you guys are getting,8 useable airframes and spares etcetera for 242 million NZD,should see you out till 2035.

What’s happening with the current aircraft will they be upgraded to the same spec?

Yep the sim is real good. From elsewhere it has been suggested that the current aircraft will not remain in the fleet and will be onsold. That is an unsubstantiated rumour. But they would need a significant MLU. Does anybody know if the ex RAN ones have the dipping sonar?

 

[Lucasnz]

Having looked at the drawings for the OPV the only way to fit a magazine for air weapons would be to relocate the sickbay (Best option). There does seem to be a lot of office space - more than a Leander frigate had - that could be converted to a new sickbay. The other two options involve using the void space on 3 deck below the gun or a containerized magazine however both options would involve significant man-handling of the weapon.

In short don't expect Penguin on the OPV without a major refit.

Still a good step up in capability for the ANZAC's

 

[ngatimozart]

Having looked at the drawings for the OPV the only way to fit a magazine for air weapons would be to relocate the sickbay (Best option). There does seem to be a lot of office space - more than a Leander frigate had - that could be converted to a new sickbay. The other two options involve using the void space on 3 deck below the gun or a containerized magazine however both options would involve significant man-handling of the weapon.

In short don't expect Penguin on the OPV without a major refit.

Still a good step up in capability for the ANZAC's

Be better off getting some Spanish BAMS if you were going to do that.

Think they should at least install the ship launched variant of the Penguin on both FFHs as well. IMHO it should really be quad cell Harpoons but that ain't gonna happen.

 

[Cadredave]

So we are buying 10, I wonder what's happened to the 11th?

On the Karman site it said the 11th was a technology demonstrator, had no further infomation why it was not part of the sale as well.

 

[ADMk2]

I'm glad that they decided to get the new sprites but I'm a little surprised about the penguin. I know that there are advantages in the pengiun in terms of range and warhead, but replacing one 1970's designed missile with another 1970's designed missile seem a little funny. Especially when there are a number of other anti-ship missiles almost on the market. (MBDA FASGW/ANL, MBDA marte). Kind of seems like although we are taking a step ahead, we are potentially still a step behind.

Those Penguin missiles were of the latest variant when we bought them, so they should still be a capable weapon. Most missiles on the market are "70's" missiles. When do you think Harpoon was designed? Or the Marte missile for that matter? The Marte entered service in 1977...

Will the mavericks be retained/intergrated to the new helo's? In my mind the maverick is perhaps a more versatile asset for the Seasprites because of the broader range of targets and using a penguin on a small boat is overkill. Hopefully the upgraded frigates will get anti-ship missiles. Although this wasn't listed in the ANZAC tender. Would hate to see purchasing the penguin used as an excuse to not buy ship/MPA launched anti-ship missiles.

The Penguin is a more capable weapon than Maverick for it's primary role. It may well depend on the remaining shelf life of your Maverick missiles too. Plus I would suggest the Maverick isn't integrated on the SH-2G (A), so the cost of integrating it I suspect would defeat part of the purpose of this bargain package...

As for the idea of using the SH-2G (A) / Penguin ASM in lieu of a dedicated ASM on the frigates, that was exactly what RAN intended with the combo, so it's a feasible concept undoubtedly.

Besides, RNZN and RAN will likely always have a pair of frigates / destroyers together on Ops. This way RNZN can contribute a heavyweight helo launched ASM capability, RAN contributes a lightweight helo launched missile and the ship launched "heavy" ASM capability.

Both provide a strong OTH helo based targetting and a highly networked force.

Sounds like all bases are covered between the two and RNZN gains a very credible ASM capability it could also employ on it's own, as needed. Win-win all-round I'd say.

Upgrading the helos MAG 58's to 50 cals would be a good idea. Better range and power against small boats and soft skinned vehicles.

Adding the M3M 0.50Cal heavy machine gun, wouldn't be a particularly costly exercise I wouldn't imagine...

 

[ngatimozart]

A RFI has been issued for the Endeavour replacement with entry into service by 2018. NZ Issues RFI for Naval Tanker Replacement | Defense News | defensenews.com
The intended vessel is a Maritime Projection and Sustainment Capability (MPSC). The RfI calls for:
- carrying a minimum of 8,000 tons of ship fuel and a minimum of 1,700 tons of aviation fuel,
- a requirement for operating medium-sized helicopters (such as New Zealand’s SH-2G Seasprites and recently introduced NH90) and a costed option for operating a CH-47 Chinook,
- the capability for lift on/lift off operations (up to and including 25 tons) to transfer embarked cargo and provision for upper deck stowage of embarked vehicles and a minimum of 12 shipping containers,
- a minimum of 260 lane meters for vehicles and the MPSC also is required to operate two 65-ton landing craft,
- a minimum 8,000 nautical mile-range at 16 knots, with a top speed of 18 knots,
- a nominal ship’s company of 70, plus up to 50 passengers,
- a minimum service life of 25 years,
- the maximum fully laden design draft is not to exceed 26.2 feet,
- it should be able to operate (from December to March) in Antarctic waters as far south as the McMurdo Sounds,
- armament includes “an appropriate number” of manually laid 0.5-inch machine guns and/or space and weight for a close in weapon system such as Phalanx.

I am not sure what to think about this Maritime Projection and Sustainment Capability concept. NZDF is not in a financial position to trail blaze a new vessel type. This has been talked about for a while and a senior Defence official does state that this RFI is just to find out what the costs may be. I note that the Canadians had a look at this as a JSS and after 20 odd years of toing and froing the JSS has morphed into an AOR. Joint Support Ship - JSS Project - Canadian Navy - AOR Replacement - Replenishment at Sea - Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment - CASR Background - Project Managment - Design Contacts - ALSC Project - Afloat Logistics Sealift Capability - Protecteur AOR - So I wonder why NZDF are steering this course.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Well there don't seem to be many options but Damen's Joint Support Ship seems to be the best bet.

Joint Support Ship -Damen Shipyards Group

It certainly ticks all the boxes.

Crew size could be problematic, however a break down of the crew may reduce it. If 70 is the targeted nominal company, in 150 if you remove the aviation detachment and probably medical complement from the final figure that should scale back those numbers to the goal.

$480 US million is a problem as well however it should be the easiest sell in terms of capability it is the ultimate in disaster relief, good will, tree hugging vessel.

I wonder if there is a cut down version available.

 

[old faithful]

Crew of 241?
Plus 210 embarked troops.
Great capability, but probably dosnt meet the brief, unfortuntly.
The Karl Doorman class would also be suitable, except crew is 150+150 troops, also similar price tag, could drop the 2 30mm guns and a goalkeeper, save a few bucks.....

 

[t68]

It certainly would be an impressive addition to the RNZN fleet and certainly combines the best of both worlds in regards to strategic sealift capability and RAS. If the Karel Doorman-class support ship was selected sealift capacity appears to on par of HMNZS Canterbury.

But I do have my reservations about combining the ships sealift capability and AOR in the one ship in that with such a small force for the future JATF, you may push the ship into more of a tactical situation instead of leaving it for strategic purposes, this brings up the future replacement for Canterbury which needs to be more progressively offence in nature using a smaller version of the French Mistral the BPC140 or the Singaporean designed Endurance 160. Politicians being politicians might not see the distinction between a strategic asset and a tactical one.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/5894/factfilejss2.png
European-security Sécurité Européenne

 

[kiwi in exile]

Neither the RAN or RNZN Seasprites carry any ASW sensors (unless you want to count the FLIR & the radar, which could pick up a sub at periscope depth or on the surface). They can drop a torpedo or depth charge based on data sent from someone else (eg. a frigate or an Orion).
Chis73

Any chance this is likely to change? Probably too soon to say but full ASW capability would be nice.

 

[Todjaeger]

Any chance this is likely to change? Probably too soon to say but full ASW capability would be nice.

Unlikely. Naval helicopters are configured either for ASW or ASuW roles. The MH-60R 'Romeo' Seahawk is the only one I know of which is kitted out for both ASW and ASuW roles and is able to perform either/both during a flight. The NFH-90 may have a similar utility without requiring hardware changeout, but I am not certain.

It is an open question whether a small naval helicopter like the Seasprite would even have space available for both ASuW and ASW systems, nevermind whether anyone would pay to develop a dual-use cockpit and avionics package.

-Cheers

 

[RegR]

Crew size could be problematic, however a break down of the crew may reduce it. If 70 is the targeted nominal company, in 150 if you remove the aviation detachment and probably medical complement from the final figure that should scale back those numbers to the goal.

A typical NZ naval flight detachment is only 10 pers (3 naval, 7 airforce) and I doubt they would have 70 medics onboard usually if ever, so may have to remove a few more trades from the ship which would make the ship extremely shift intensive or straight undeployable without severe automation.