Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

dazzerler1

Banned Member
Japan and Philippines just signed some sort of military agreement and some articles are saying that help from Japan would be to help the Phils improve it's maritime in particular.

This and Japan's recent lifting of their ban on military exports last Dec. 2011 should pave the way for them to give Philippines some needed 2nd-hand submarines.

Japan mostly only keep their subs not more than 20 years and then they just scrap it. Most countries keep their subs at least for 30 years. Just sell some of those to Phils. plus 1-2 trainer subs as well.
I think the attached newspaper article is what you're alluding to? Do you have any concrete information about Japan's submarines just being kept for 20 years and then scrapped? Or any Japanese plans to give them to the Philippines for free? Even the US charges an minimal amount for the Hamilton's transfer to the Philippines?

Philippines, Japan to enhance maritime security ties - Yahoo! News Philippines
 

icefrog

New Member
I think the attached newspaper article is what you're alluding to? Do you have any concrete information about Japan's submarines just being kept for 20 years and then scrapped? Or any Japanese plans to give them to the Philippines for free? Even the US charges an minimal amount for the Hamilton's transfer to the Philippines?
Right now I still can't post links but you can easily google it and research it yourself. Japan is known to de-commission their submarines earlier than what most countries usually do.

What they do with their 20 year or so subs is they convert some into trainer subs and the rest are scrapped esp. since they can't just sell those before to any country because of their self-imposed export ban.

I'm looking specifically at their Harushio-class submarine since that is their smallest and oldest models that they can possibly give to the Phils. and if I'm not mistaken there are still 2 that has not been either converted to trainer subs or scrapped already.

However, this is just my humble suggestion.

I just think it makes sense to first get 1-2 trainer subs converted from old subs like what Japan do and then get 1-2 2nd-hand subs for countries like the Phils. that has no experience whatsoever in operating submarines. Getting top-notch training from the Japs and developing their own submarine doctrines from the Japs would really be nice as well. :)
 

icefrog

New Member
I think the attached newspaper article is what you're alluding to? Do you have any concrete information about Japan's submarines just being kept for 20 years and then scrapped? Or any Japanese plans to give them to the Philippines for free? Even the US charges an minimal amount for the Hamilton's transfer to the Philippines?

Philippines, Japan to enhance maritime security ties - Yahoo! News Philippines
Yep, that article and this too: Japan signs military agreement, pledges support for Philippines - The Japan Daily Press

BTW, I never said Japan should give it for free. That is why I mentioned Japan now able to sell military wares because of their recent lifting of their military export ban.
 

Zhaow

New Member
Right now I still can't post links but you can easily google it and research it yourself. Japan is known to de-commission their submarines earlier than what most countries usually do.

What they do with their 20 year or so subs is they convert some into trainer subs and the rest are scrapped esp. since they can't just sell those before to any country because of their self-imposed export ban.

I'm looking specifically at their Harushio-class submarine since that is their smallest and oldest models that they can possibly give to the Phils. and if I'm not mistaken there are still 2 that has not been either converted to trainer subs or scrapped already.

However, this is just my humble suggestion.

I just think it makes sense to first get 1-2 trainer subs converted from old subs like what Japan do and then get 1-2 2nd-hand subs for countries like the Phils. that has no experience whatsoever in operating submarines. Getting top-notch training from the Japs and developing their own submarine doctrines from the Japs would really be nice as well. :)
It's a pipe dream that the Philippine navy can operate submarines, let alone SSK submarines. If they wanted SSK submarines, they would need to invest in infrastructure upgrades and maybe pay Germany, Spain or Sweden or Japan to train them on how to use Submarines. The cost of running an SSK would possibly break their bank.
 

dazzerler1

Banned Member
Yep, that article and this too: Japan signs military agreement, pledges support for Philippines - The Japan Daily Press

BTW, I never said Japan should give it for free. That is why I mentioned Japan now able to sell military wares because of their recent lifting of their military export ban.
Yes, I misread what you wrote. The article that Icefrog is talking about is included here.

http://jsw.newpacificinstitute.org/?p=3015

Yeah, it is possibility for the Philippines to acquire these second hand subs.
 

icefrog

New Member
It's a pipe dream that the Philippine navy can operate submarines, let alone SSK submarines. If they wanted SSK submarines, they would need to invest in infrastructure upgrades and maybe pay Germany, Spain or Sweden or Japan to train them on how to use Submarines. The cost of running an SSK would possibly break their bank.
A 2nd-hand diesel-electric submarine is not a pipe dream. Besides, what they are aiming for are small-displacement subs meant only to patrol their littorals or go brown-water. People still have this notion that Philippines is still a 3rd-world country. It ain't anymore. If a country like Vietnam can buy (they ordered 6 Kilos) and operate Russian Kilo submarines a country that is richer than them and has more foreign reserves than Canada and Australia (you can look that up) can too - if they want too. But they won't go overboard like what Vietnam seems to be doing. Don't be surprised if they instead buy brand new subs as small as in the 550 tonne displacement if the old adage of buying 2nd-hand subs not being worth it is observed. They also fully know what happened with the 2nd-hand subs Singapore bought from Sweden and how much of a headache it was. Japanese subs may be an exemption since as I said they retire their subs much earlier and their theater of operation is in Asia-Pacific so it probably doesn't need "tropicalization" like those Swedish subs needed to be even useful to SG. The 2nd-hand German subs that Thailand were considering were said to be 35 year olds but said to only last another 6-7 years more. In theory, those 20 y.o. Japanese subs can still last 10-15 years or so, so depending on how much the Japs are willing to sell it at 2nd-hand prices it may still be worth it, esp. if it doesn't need major repairs or refurbishing.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
People still have this notion that Philippines is still a 3rd-world country. It ain't anymore.
Call it emerging market then but it means the same thing. Do not post rubbish in this forum.

If a country like Vietnam can buy (they ordered 6 Kilos) and operate Russian Kilo submarines a country that is richer than them and has more foreign reserves than Canada and Australia (you can look that up) can too - if they want too.
We do not cater for children. Read what other moderators have kindly posted about the concept of foreign reserves (and the limitations to its usage) in other Philippine related threads.

Mod Warning issued to icefrog.

Foreign reserves are different from your government's budget and traditionally your government's budget is in chronic deficit because of the inability of the BIR to meet its goals. Please check out your government's revenue figures.

They also fully know what happened with the 2nd-hand subs Singapore bought from Sweden and how much of a headache it was. Japanese subs may be an exemption since as I said they retire their subs much earlier and their theater of operation is in Asia-Pacific so it probably doesn't need "tropicalization" like those Swedish subs needed to be even useful to SG.
Please don't post half digested idiotic rubbish about submarines here. There are actual submarines operators/commanders in this forum (or people in industry/government positions dealing with submarines), who know much more than me. You and your country do not and will not be given access to Japanese or Singaporean classified data sets about their submarines. Please do not pretend to know. Either you do know or you do not know. Have the humility to admit that you do not have access.

In ASEAN, Singapore is the largest and most advanced conventional submarine operator, with 2 classes of submarines. ST Marine (through a JV with Kockums called Fortis Marine Solutions Pte. Ltd.) is in the advanced stages of developing a depot level in-country capability to conduct re-fit of Singapore's own submarines (with full-cycle refits taking more than a year, per submarine and occuring every 6 years). With regards to the ex-Sjoormen, Singapore actually bought all 5 of them (with one used as a source of spare parts) to ensure operational availability. With only 3x of the Challenger Class commissioned and a 4th used as a capability and technology demonstrator (CTD). The work done to the Challengers was extensive and they were rebuilt, life-extended, tropicalised and modernised in Sweden and in 2 batches (re-launched in 1999 and 2001, in RSN service). The Archer class took longer (they had to cut the hull into 2 to insert the AIP section) and the work done to have them rebuilt, life-extended, tropicalised and modernised. It depends on what you mean by tropicalisation. Singapore's Mindef only mentions the following:-

(a) Changing the steel pipes and valves that come into contact with seawater to copper nickel iron ones in order to reduce corrosion.
(b) Installing a marine growth protection system to minimise the growth of marine barnacles on the submarine surface.
(c) Installing a freon compressor to enhance the cooling efficiency within the submarine.

When in fact the work done to the Challenger Class was more extensive than the 3 items listed above. In fact, they had their signature tuned for local waters or what some would call signature managed, with the intial help of the Australians.

The 2nd-hand German subs that Thailand were considering were said to be 35 year olds but said to only last another 6-7 years more.
Wrong concept - pure rubbish in the links. Read up on the concept of full cycle refits. IIRC, full cycle refits occur every 6 years for Singapore's Challenger Class and every 7 years for the Collins Class. Refits is something that needs to be done to keep the submarine effective. And the Indonesians had their German built Type-209 (commissioned in 1981), KRI Cakra overhauled and upgraded by South Korea’s Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME). Work for KRI Cakra was completed by mid-2006 at a cost of US$60 million. KRI Nanggala refit contract was awarded to DSME in 2009 and completed in 2012.

In theory, those 20 y.o. Japanese subs can still last 10-15 years or so, so depending on how much the Japs are willing to sell it at 2nd-hand prices it may still be worth it, esp. if it doesn't need major repairs or refurbishing.
See above comment on full cycle refits. Stop posting and read more before posting.
 
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SpartanSG

New Member
Yeah, it is possibility for the Philippines to acquire these second hand subs.
I think a reality check is in order here.

Indonesia's defence budget for 2012 is ~US$8 billion (Military spending in South-East Asia: Shopping spree | The Economist). This funds a large military (in terms of number of personnel) as well as some hardware modernisation. The Indonesian Navy (TNI AL) operates 2 old Chakra class submarines that have/are under-going refurbishment and they are looking at getting newer submarines.

Malaysia's defence budget for 2012 is ~US$4.8 billion (Defence budget (Malaysia) - Sentinel Security Assessment - Southeast Asia). This funds a mostly professional military as well as hardware modernisation. The Royal Malaysian Navy operates 2 new Scorpene class submarines in a purpose-built naval base.

Thailand's defence budget for 2012 is ~US$5.5 billion (Thailand notes good prospects of military cooperation with Kyiv). This funds a military with conscripts. The Royal Thai Navy has 1 aircraft carrier that is hardly operational (it goes out to sea once a month?) and it does not have submarines.

In contrast, the Philippines defence budget for 2012 is ~ US$2.3 billion, which is an 81% increase from 2011 (Defence budget (Philippines) - Sentinel Security Assessment - Southeast Asia). The AFP is busy fighting in the south, the Air Force and Navy badly needs modernisation and you think there is enough money to buy submarines?

Is the 81% increase in defence spending for the AFP from 2011 to 2012 sustainable in the long run? Do you know that it took Singapore and Malaysia many years to develop a submarine capability?

Even though Thailand has been considering acquiring a submarine capability from at least as early as the 1970s, they have yet to do so. Why?

Acquiring a submarine capability requires long term planning due to the huge financial commitment. And there is the issue of submarine rescue capability, which is also extremely expensive. Of course, the AFP can choose to rely on US' submarine rescue capability, Singapore's submarine rescue capability, Australia's submarine rescue capability, Japan's submarine rescue capability or don't have a submarine rescue capability at all (Indian Navy?).

All these are not trivial issues to resolve.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
In the 60's, Indonesian Navy operated 10-12 Whiskey class submarine. Besides the submarines, USSR also provided Indonesia with basic supporting Infrastructure (on sea and land), from submarine tender ship, to submarine berthing infrastructure etc. On top of that a very friendly pricing spare parts supply.

By the early 70's those dozen submarine already decreased only to 4 operational and by mid 70's only 2. Despite that Whiskey class is not a very complex and expensive submarine to maintain, however for a small navy or a third world nation navy it's an expensive hardware to maintain. This with the fact that TNI-AL already had considerable submarine infrastructure for Southeast Asia standard at that time (well the only one in the region at the 70's)

It requires special technical skill, different set of crews training and preparations (you can't simply transferred surface ship crew, and conduct little bit training and hoping them to be capable submarine crews right away). In fact just last week, two TNI-AL crew dies on submarine rescue training exercises. Just to show, even with more than 40 years experiences on submarine operations, TNI-AL still need to learn a lot to keep maintain and developing their submarine proficiencies.

This does not mean that a Navy without previous experience on submarine operations can't operate Submarine. Singapore and Malaysia show they can do that, however with a long time preparation before and 'a lot of' Investment. When talking Investment, this means not just buying and maintaining the submarine, but also preparing everything else in support the submarine operations.

The 2nd-hand German subs that Thailand were considering were said to be 35 year old but said to only last another 6-7 years more.
Indonesian Tjakra and Nenggala, both over 30 years old, but after huge modification, overhaul, and upgrading with Daewoo, they can operate up to end of next decade if need be. This is the third overhaul being conducted to both submarines, First in Manfacturer facility in Germany, then in PAL Facility in Surabaya, and lastly in Daewoo facility. Despite PAL already able to conduct 209 overhaul in Surabaya, the last overhaul choosed being conducted with Daewoo, since Daewoo is license to build newer versions of 209 (Changbogo), thus can provide the upgrade for Indonesian 209 with some elements of Changbogo technology.

The overall 'real' price on upgrading those two 209, I've been told actually closed to having 1 brand new 209. The Navy choose to do that so they can have 5 (2 old-upgrade 209 and 3 brand new 209) subs by second half of this decade.

All this show how expensive, and complex issues facing a Navy when operating submarine, even a Litoral-Green water subs like 209. TNI-AL choose not having Kilo, but another 209 is also related with the complexity on maintaing and operating submarines.

Besides, Japanese already invest so much and put much of their own advance technology on their submarine. It's too early to tell that Japanese will provide their Subs to Philipine Navy. Even Australia (RAN) interest with Soryu and their close relationship with both Japan and US, will not guarantee automatically that Japan will share much of their Soryu Technology with Australia. Much must be seen.
 

icefrog

New Member
In the 60's, Indonesian Navy operated 10-12 Whiskey class submarine. Besides the submarines, USSR also provided Indonesia with basic supporting Infrastructure (on sea and land), from submarine tender ship, to submarine berthing infrastructure etc. On top of that a very friendly pricing spare parts supply.

By the early 70's those dozen submarine already decreased only to 4 operational and by mid 70's only 2. Despite that Whiskey class is not a very complex and expensive submarine to maintain, however for a small navy or a third world nation navy it's an expensive hardware to maintain. This with the fact that TNI-AL already had considerable submarine infrastructure for Southeast Asia standard at that time (well the only one in the region at the 70's)

It requires special technical skill, different set of crews training and preparations (you can't simply transferred surface ship crew, and conduct little bit training and hoping them to be capable submarine crews right away). In fact just last week, two TNI-AL crew dies on submarine rescue training exercises. Just to show, even with more than 40 years experiences on submarine operations, TNI-AL still need to learn a lot to keep maintain and developing their submarine proficiencies.

This does not mean that a Navy without previous experience on submarine operations can't operate Submarine. Singapore and Malaysia show they can do that, however with a long time preparation before and 'a lot of' Investment. When talking Investment, this means not just buying and maintaining the submarine, but also preparing everything else in support the submarine operations.



Indonesian Tjakra and Nenggala, both over 30 years old, but after huge modification, overhaul, and upgrading with Daewoo, they can operate up to end of next decade if need be. This is the third overhaul being conducted to both submarines, First in Manfacturer facility in Germany, then in PAL Facility in Surabaya, and lastly in Daewoo facility. Despite PAL already able to conduct 209 overhaul in Surabaya, the last overhaul choosed being conducted with Daewoo, since Daewoo is license to build newer versions of 209 (Changbogo), thus can provide the upgrade for Indonesian 209 with some elements of Changbogo technology.

The overall 'real' price on upgrading those two 209, I've been told actually closed to having 1 brand new 209. The Navy choose to do that so they can have 5 (2 old-upgrade 209 and 3 brand new 209) subs by second half of this decade.

All this show how expensive, and complex issues facing a Navy when operating submarine, even a Litoral-Green water subs like 209. TNI-AL choose not having Kilo, but another 209 is also related with the complexity on maintaing and operating submarines.

Besides, Japanese already invest so much and put much of their own advance technology on their submarine. It's too early to tell that Japanese will provide their Subs to Philipine Navy. Even Australia (RAN) interest with Soryu and their close relationship with both Japan and US, will not guarantee automatically that Japan will share much of their Soryu Technology with Australia. Much must be seen.
I provided the links and merely relayed it here. It did not came from me but from the Thais, if you think their assessment is wrong then it's your word against them and not your word against me. As per the article I quoted it was the Thai Navy Chief that said it - just to re-iterate it.

I also did not mention the Soryu w/c is Japan's most modern submarine and in fact specifically mentioned only the Harushio-class w/c was later succeeded by the Oyashio-class and that in turn was succeeded by the Soryu. In short, old tech, on old subs.

Also, would like to emphasize that the Japanese providing their oldest submarine is a mere humble suggestion from me. I thought that was clear from my previous post but I guess it was not clear enough. Never said they should or they will provide it to the Phils.

Thanks.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
I provided the links and merely relayed it here. It did not came from me but from the Thais, if you think their assessment is wrong then it's your word against them and not your word against me. As per the article I quoted it was the Thai Navy Chief that said it - just to re-iterate it.

.
No, that's not my assessment. That's TNI-AL assessment and Daewoo assessment. I just summarize them from various sources. Since Daewoo already build submarine, and TNI-AL have more than 40 years operating Submarine, I tend to believe them as reliable.

I only put that to show overhauling older submarine to newer standard is achievable. However with a lot of costs. Perhaps the Thai's does not want to be burden with upgrading and overhaul cost ? Well they certainly did not open that on their assessment, thus open to speculation.

Singapore 2nd hand Submarine also is not just merely a 2nd hand Submarine. Just like OPSSG stated, it's already put under extensive modernization and overhauled. Thus it's also mean a lot of work and investment. You put Thai's assessment with link. Fair enough. However where you can justifies your statement that Singapore 2nd hand submarine give them so much headache ?

I believe several comments in this thread to your posts simply put, don't simplified the acquisition of Submarine as similar thing as acquisition and operating surface ships. A lot of technical preparation and Investment need to be done (outside the submarine it self), before you can seriously jump on SSK game. Thus a Navy that operated for some time Surface ships, need a lot of job before even can consider coming to Submarine Game.

I put an example of what happen to Indonesian Submarine Fleet in the 60's just as example that jumping to submarine game too fast (as what Soekarno did with Indonesian Navy in the 60's), can be fastly turn to unsustainable conditions. For Indonesian Navy case in the 70's much due to budget and manning, which in sense Indonesian Navy conditions actually can't sustain more than 2 submarine operations in reality. In such that the budget can only sustain operational costs for 2 submarine, and the training regime can only produce 2 set of submarine crew at one time. Thus operating a dozen proved to be wasting game.

Do you already know how big the preparation for Philippine Navy willing and actually can build and provide to differed their resources from current surface ships operations to maintaining SSK operations ?

It's not the matter where the Philippine Navy will get their submarine, but whether Philippine Navy willing and ready to put much more effort and resources to get in to Submarine game.

In Preparation for 6 Kilo's they ordered, Vietnam already put much more Investment outside acquiring 6 Kilo's, including setting training regime in Russia, and building latter on in house training regime. Also they do not put all what they are doing on public information, however several information that come out, do suggest a lot of preparations being done on their bases, i,e building new infrastructure for Submarine operations which is going to be separated to existing surface ships supporting facility.

Again, unless you already see the willingness and the availability of resources from Philippine Navy on preparing Submarine operations, you can't simply suggest they buy random submarine from somewhere else and jump to the game.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It's a pipe dream that the Philippine navy can operate submarines, let alone SSK submarines. If they wanted SSK submarines, they would need to invest in infrastructure upgrades and maybe pay Germany, Spain or Sweden or Japan to train them on how to use Submarines. The cost of running an SSK would possibly break their bank.
Why let alone SSK submarines'? Do you know what an SSK is?

BTW, North Korea is much poorer than the Philippines, & has over 50 SSKs. Of course, that's a very special case, & the Philippines isn't going to militarise its entire society like N. Korea, but there are other examples. Vietnam has a smaller GDP than the Philippines, & is buying six SSKs from Russia. Colombia, Ecuador, Peru . . . if they can operate SSKs , , , ,
 

icefrog

New Member
Why let alone SSK submarines'? Do you know what an SSK is?

BTW, North Korea is much poorer than the Philippines, & has over 50 SSKs. Of course, that's a very special case, & the Philippines isn't going to militarise its entire society like N. Korea, but there are other examples. Vietnam has a smaller GDP than the Philippines, & is buying six SSKs from Russia. Colombia, Ecuador, Peru . . . if they can operate SSKs , , , ,
This is exactly what I am trying to drive at. Thank you.

---------

Philippines is also only going to buy smaller-displacement subs and it need not be sophisticated subs. They will not buy a fleet of 6 either and more likely to start with just 1-2 littoral submarines.

There are also so-called "budget" or entry-level submarines such as the French Andrasta and Germany's type 210mod both of w/c are being priced around the $200-250M price-range.
 

icefrog

New Member
No, that's not my assessment. That's TNI-AL assessment and Daewoo assessment. I just summarize them from various sources. Since Daewoo already build submarine, and TNI-AL have more than 40 years operating Submarine, I tend to believe them as reliable.

I only put that to show overhauling older submarine to newer standard is achievable. However with a lot of costs. Perhaps the Thai's does not want to be burden with upgrading and overhaul cost ? Well they certainly did not open that on their assessment, thus open to speculation.

Singapore 2nd hand Submarine also is not just merely a 2nd hand Submarine. Just like OPSSG stated, it's already put under extensive modernization and overhauled. Thus it's also mean a lot of work and investment. You put Thai's assessment with link. Fair enough. However where you can justifies your statement that Singapore 2nd hand submarine give them so much headache ?

I believe several comments in this thread to your posts simply put, don't simplified the acquisition of Submarine as similar thing as acquisition and operating surface ships. A lot of technical preparation and Investment need to be done (outside the submarine it self), before you can seriously jump on SSK game. Thus a Navy that operated for some time Surface ships, need a lot of job before even can consider coming to Submarine Game.

I put an example of what happen to Indonesian Submarine Fleet in the 60's just as example that jumping to submarine game too fast (as what Soekarno did with Indonesian Navy in the 60's), can be fastly turn to unsustainable conditions. For Indonesian Navy case in the 70's much due to budget and manning, which in sense Indonesian Navy conditions actually can't sustain more than 2 submarine operations in reality. In such that the budget can only sustain operational costs for 2 submarine, and the training regime can only produce 2 set of submarine crew at one time. Thus operating a dozen proved to be wasting game.

Do you already know how big the preparation for Philippine Navy willing and actually can build and provide to differed their resources from current surface ships operations to maintaining SSK operations ?

It's not the matter where the Philippine Navy will get their submarine, but whether Philippine Navy willing and ready to put much more effort and resources to get in to Submarine game.

In Preparation for 6 Kilo's they ordered, Vietnam already put much more Investment outside acquiring 6 Kilo's, including setting training regime in Russia, and building latter on in house training regime. Also they do not put all what they are doing on public information, however several information that come out, do suggest a lot of preparations being done on their bases, i,e building new infrastructure for Submarine operations which is going to be separated to existing surface ships supporting facility.

Again, unless you already see the willingness and the availability of resources from Philippine Navy on preparing Submarine operations, you can't simply suggest they buy random submarine from somewhere else and jump to the game.
They have been studying it for a long-time and their original time-line is 2020. Part of their study is it worth buying 2nd-hand subs and specifically mentioned a certain un-named south-east asian country that spent so much on those 2nd-hand subs they bought that it came out as if like buying a brand-new one. They don't want to make that same mistake. That is a mistake (whether that country admits it or not) that only rich countries can afford to make.

I already explained why I mentioned 2nd-hand Japanese subs w/c Japan retires in just 20 years or even less as a possibility as far as 2nd-hand subs go. Japan as a nation is well-known to discard perfectly working things very early and still have a lot of life in them and are still very useful. It's part of their culture.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Japan retires in just 20 years or even less[/URL] as a possibility as far as 2nd-hand subs go. Japan as a nation is well-known to discard perfectly working things very early and still have a lot of life in them and are still very useful. It's part of their culture.
One thing you must realise is that Sub tech is a very closely guarded secret, especially by the Japanese.I doubt an "O" or "H" let alone a "S" boat are for sale by the Japanese.

Edit.They may be for sale to a very trusted Allie (Maybe Australia)??

Subs are usually bought in 4's as a German member of this forum has stated.I would assume a purchase of 1-2 subs ,the money could be better spent on other items for the Philippine defence forces.
 
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icefrog

New Member
One thing you must realise is that Sub tech is a very closely guarded secret, especially by the Japanese.I doubt an "O" or "H" let alone a "S" boat are for sale by the Japanese.

Subs are usually bought in 4's as a German member of this forum has stated.
Thanks, I merely suggested it - not saying it will absolutely happen.

Subs are usually bought in 4s?? That is probably a good guide to follow but I'm pretty sure that's not a hard and fast rule.
 

the road runner

Active Member
Subs are usually bought in 4s?? That is probably a good guide to follow but I'm pretty sure that's not a hard and fast rule.
I assume it is if you want one sub "on operations",one sub "working up the crew" and 2 in "different parts" of refit/maintenance the number is 4.

That is why i suggest(through the knowledge of the defence professionals on this site) purchasing 1 or 2 subs is a waste of money.Steel/moving parts and salt water don't mix to well. As OPSSG has stated Singapore purchased 4 subs and 1 for spare parts.Those Sing's are smart cookies
 

icefrog

New Member
I assume it is if you want one sub "on operations",one sub "working up the crew" and 2 in "different parts" of refit/maintenance the number is 4.

That is why i suggest(through the knowledge of the defence professionals on this site) purchasing 1 or 2 subs is a waste of money.Steel/moving parts and salt water don't mix to well. As OPSSG has stated Singapore purchased 4 subs and 1 for spare parts.Those Sing's are smart cookies
Each country follow diff. policies. Some follow the rule of 3. One "on operations",one for "training" or what you call "working up the crew" and one "on the shipyard" for maintenance or whatever.

Also, there is a difference from what you absolutely can't do and what is not sound policy to do. Getting less than 3-4 subs may be argued as not sound policy but you can't tell another country they absolutely can't do it.

I can give you example of countries that has ordered less than the rule of 4 you are talking a bout. Countries that ordered 1 Kilo sub each: Poland and Romania. Algeria only ordered 2 Kilos and then only made a ff-up order of another 2 several years later. Venezuela is thinking of ordering just 3 Kilos and don't be surprised if they cut it to just 2 instead because of budget constrains. It has been done.

"Waste of money" is relative. One can easily argue that buying 2 brand-new subs that will last at least 30 years would still be better than buying 4-6 2nd-hand subs w/c after refitting and refurbishing comes out as expensive or even more expensive than buying brand-new submarines and of course those 2nd subs could not possibly last another 30 years. The Thais obviously at the last minute thinks buying those 2nd-hand German subs is not worth it. I think the Thais are smart. At then end of the day, let the country do with their money.
 

dazzerler1

Banned Member
A year ago the debate in Thailand was to either buy 4-6 2nd-hand submarines from Germany or just 2 brand-new subs from South Korea.

Navy takes aim at Korean subs | Bangkok Post: news

A few months ago Thailand cancelled the German order.......
Seriously, the Philippines is not ready for any type of submarines now or 2 to 3 years from now. I think (IMHO) they would probably be ready to dive-in into this new class of naval armament in 6 to 8 years? Just like somebody stated, there is so much preparation for submarine operations. The Phippine navy will be lucky if their sailors are proficient to operate the ships that they're planning to acquire now in the next 2 or 3 years. It takes time to be proficient in operating more modern ships. I think it is taking at least 6 months for Philippine sailors to learn how to operate those Hamiltons and those ships are at least 40+ years old.
 
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