Iran and Related Geopolitical Defense Issues

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Two interesting articles.

While not revealing anything most who study the area don't already know regarding the military, it did bring out some interesting information that , for me, was new.

Fresh water is as important as oil to the Gulf Region.

One scenario is for Iran to attack the desalination plants along the Gulf, threatening nations allied to the United States. Saudi Arabia obtains nearly 70% of its fresh water from these plants. However, Iran also has this vulnerability.
Its been oft stated over the last 10 years that the next strategic war would be about water.

india pakistan afghanistan china all have similar issues with the dams/rivers crossing borders etc

sauidi arabia and iraq have similar problems (iraq traditionally less depending on history and when "who owned what"
 

SASWanabe

Member
As the US seems to be taking more of a diplomatic stance toward the crisis, there are increasing noises being made concerning a unilateral response from Israel which itself could amount to nothing more than trying to up the ante with the US administration in an attempt to get them to take action.

This apparently was the case during the 1973 Yom Kippur when the US re-supplied Israel with vital military equipment to prevent them from using nuclear arms and initiating a far more dangerous state of affairs. I'm sure that some experts might like to comment on the analogy but I'm sure that it is a valid one.
i would recommend reading up on [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera"]Operation Opera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] its almost entirely the same set of circumstances except Iran in place of Iraq
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
can someone in about 3 short sentences explain to me whats going on... i seriously want to know.

all i keep hearing on news is possible war in Iran............................why? whats causing it and why does Israel want to strike as well?
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
can someone in about 3 short sentences explain to me whats going on... i seriously want to know.

all i keep hearing on news is possible war in Iran............................why? whats causing it and why does Israel want to strike as well?
Have a read of the entire thread and the articles linked. Or better yet, do a google around for more information, or watch some documentaries on Iran and the West.

No offence meant by this, but it would be totally unbecoming of the subject matter to attempt to sum it up in three short sentences, it would give you no real appreciation of the topic nor is it the responsibility of members on the board to dumb down information into soundbytes for others. As I said, I don't mean this as an attack because I appreciate you want to understand the topic, but it really isn't something that can be condensed down into three sentences. Nor should it be. Complex topics require effort to appreciate them, the more you put in, the better off you'll be. A little one line summary wouldn't do you any good. :)
 

Comrade69

Banned Member
Have a read of the entire thread and the articles linked. Or better yet, do a google around for more information, or watch some documentaries on Iran and the West.

No offence meant by this, but it would be totally unbecoming of the subject matter to attempt to sum it up in three short sentences, it would give you no real appreciation of the topic nor is it the responsibility of members on the board to dumb down information into soundbytes for others. As I said, I don't mean this as an attack because I appreciate you want to understand the topic, but it really isn't something that can be condensed down into three sentences. Nor should it be. Complex topics require effort to appreciate them, the more you put in, the better off you'll be. A little one line summary wouldn't do you any good. :)
I have actually just started reading up on the matter and watching news clips however they just talk about what their going to do or might do


i still have yet to find whats the cause behind all of this
 

Bonza

Super Moderator
Staff member
I have actually just started reading up on the matter and watching news clips however they just talk about what their going to do or might do


i still have yet to find whats the cause behind all of this
There's a three part documentary on youtube called Iran & the West, covering Iran from the time of the Shah through to post 9/11, each part is an hour long but it couldn't hurt to set some time aside to have a look at it even if just to establish some kind of benchmark for understanding Iran's relationship with the United States. I hope you find the link useful:

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOaGmK8aTHQ&feature=related"]Iran and The West 1/3: The Man Who Changed The World - BBC (Feb 7, 2009) - YouTube[/nomedia]
 

JGA

New Member
I have actually just started reading up on the matter and watching news clips however they just talk about what their going to do or might do


i still have yet to find whats the cause behind all of this

1.) Iran wants atomic power but no one knows if its for just electrical power or if its for weapons.
2.) Iran is opposed to Israel and one may be inclined to use the word hate whilst America would not want a nuclear powered Iran as it could have a number of negative outcome on oil, allies, etc etc
3.) Israel and America are telling Iran to stop trying to go nuclear, by sanctions or potential military actions

As the other guy said, three sentences does not give any justice to the situation and you should really attempt at doing some research if you want to know about the situation and all its complexities
 

JGA

New Member
1.) Iran wants atomic power but no one knows if its for just electrical power or if its for weapons.
2.) Iran is opposed to Israel and one may be inclined to use the word hate whilst America would not want a nuclear powered Iran as it could have a number of negative outcome on oil, allies, etc etc
3.) Israel and America are telling Iran to stop trying to go nuclear, by sanctions or potential military actions

As the other guy said, three sentences does not give any justice to the situation and you should really attempt at doing some research if you want to know about the situation and all its complexities
The other guy I referred to is named Bonza, my apologies but I could not remember whilst replying
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
whats causing it and why does Israel want to strike as well?
Because it wants to ensure that Israel and only Israel has nukes. Though it has never admitted having nukes, knowledge that Israel has nukes gives it a great advantage and plays a big part in how other countries deal with it. It can also be argued that the issue of Iranian nukes is a smokescreen, that the real reason Israel wants to strike at Iran or see it weakened is because this would have a negative effect on Hezbollah and Syria. A weakened Syria would meant that Israel will have more time to avoid handing back the Golan [one of the precondition that Israel placed on returining the Golan is that Syria sever its ties with Hezbollah and downgrade relations with Iran, which Syria can't do as Iran is its only regional ally] and would mean that Syria would have less influence in Lebanese affairs. Though Israel has given up the idea of having a ''friendly'' Christian government in power in Beirut [which was it's prime motive for invading Lebanon in 1982], it still desires a ''stable'' and ''friendly'' Lebanon. Also bear in mind that Iran and Syria are the only 2 countries that continue to defy Uncle Sam - by not playing ball over the Palestine/Israel issue which remains - unlike the Sunni Gulf States who all depend on Uncle Sam for regime survival and are not too vocal over Uncle Sam's policies in the region, as long as those policies are not at odds with their own policies.

The problem is that most of us continue to view Iran from a Western centric perspective, when what we should be doing is putting ourselves in Iran's shoes, and trying to understand how they view things - being surrounded by allies of Uncle Sam who have spent billions on arms from the West [whom are already engaged in a 'cold war' with Iran, over the sunni/shiite schism, for regional influence and who poured billions, with the tacit approval and support of the West, in ensuring a Saddam victory during the 1st Gulf War], being surrounded by an American military presence and faced with a nuclear armed Israel which receives unconditional U.S. support. The questions we should ask is who would stand to benefit from an Israeli strike on Iran and whether this would be in the long term interests of Uncle Sam and the West?
 
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Sampanviking

Banned Member
I think camrade69, you are probably asking an almost impossible question to answer.
What you have is a collision of interests and opinion from multiple powers over a range of issues.

You can spend time and identify those issues and opinions, you can spend time and analyse the policies and the behaviour of the key players, you can try to judge morality and immorality, right or wrong, hypocrisy etc, but you will only discover that nobody owns a monopoly on virtue.

The best you can really do is dig below the hubris and appreciate the core drivers of the situation and ultimately decide, which side, you personally wish to see win.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
The problem is that most of us continue to view Iran from a Western centric perspective, when what we should be doing is putting ourselves in Iran's shoes, and trying to understand how they view things - being surrounded by allies of Uncle Sam who have spent billions on arms from the West [whom are already engaged in a 'cold war' with Iran, over the sunni/shiite schism, for regional influence and who poured billions, with the tacit approval and support of the West, in ensuring a Saddam victory during the 1st Gulf War], being surrounded by an American military presence and faced with a nuclear armed Israel which receives unconditional U.S. support. The questions we should ask is who would stand to benefit from an Israeli strike on Iran and whether this would be in the long term interests of Uncle Sam and the West?
I doubt ANY other country wanted Saddam’s Iraq to win the Iran-Iraq war, they just did not want Iran to win by overrunning Iraq after 1982. None of them wanted Iraq to overrun Iran either, if Iraq had ever showed any potential for that all the support would have swung to the Iranians. But let’s face it, the general attitude, north (USSR), south (Gulf states and Africa), east (rest of Asia), and west (the Americas, Europe, and Israel) was best summed up by Henry Kissinger when he said “it's a pity they both can't lose".
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
None of them wanted Iraq to overrun Iran either, if Iraq had ever showed any potential for that all the support would have swung to the Iranians.
If the tide had turned in Iran's favour, which was very unlikely to have happened, given that practically the whole world was behind Iraq, Iran would have been pressured to agree to a cease fire. As to your opinion that no country wanted a total Iraqi victory, this may have been true for the West but not for the Gulf states who were terrified that the Iranians would spread the revolution westwards.The point I was trying to make is that Iran has, just like everyone else, has grievances, it lost hundreds of thousands dead and wounded, in a war that was supported by the West.

was best summed up by Henry Kissinger when he said “it's a pity they both can't lose".
This statement is a bit hypocritical given U.S. support to Iran. At one point the U.S. even supplied satellite imagery to the Iraqis and USN ships in the Gulf provided the Iraqis with warning of Iranian air attacks. Not to mention the U.S. governments reaction when the USS Vincennes, which was in Iranian waters, shot down an Iranian Airbus that was in Iranian waters - a late and subdued apology and an attempt to cover up the mistake and shift the blame on Iran. When Americans were killed on the U.SS Stark, Iraq merely got a mild rebuke or ''slap on the wrist'', which would not have happened if the attacker had been an Iranian plane.
 
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PCShogun

New Member
This statement is a bit hypocritical given U.S. support to Iran. At one point the U.S. even supplied satellite imagery to the Iraqis and USN ships in the Gulf provided the Iraq's with warning of Iranian air attacks. Not to mention the U.S. governments reaction when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian Airbus that was in Iranian waters - compare that to the mild rebuke or ''slap on the wrist'' Iraq received over the USS Stark.
True, but Israel was selling hundred of million of dollars of weapons to Iran at this same time. I cannot help but believe that everyone's agenda was to really see them both lose, playing one against the other in that war.

On a new note: DEBKA says they have sources commenting the United States will refuel Israeli aircraft if they attack Iran. Not the best source, sure, but the first confirming what most of us felt anyway. Israel cannot reach Iran without help. This means that Israeli attack jets would likely overfly Syria or Jordan, through Iraq, and then over the gulf. Going around Turkey to the black sea, over Georgia and Azerbaijan would take too long and too far, in my opinion. I did see today that the Azeri's had signed an arms deal with Israel for $1.6 billion in weapons, so this could be a possibility, perhaps for emergency landings of damaged aircraft? The Azeri's and Iran are not exactly buddies at the moment.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
True, but Israel was selling hundred of million of dollars of weapons to Iran at this same time. I cannot help but believe that everyone's agenda was to really see them both lose, playing one against the other in that war.
Israel played a role in the Iran-Contra affair by supplying surplus Hawks to Iran. The first shipment became a major problem as the Iranians checked the serials of the missiles and found that they were older models!! The Israelis then sent a new shipment. The details are in 'Every Spy A Prince'' by Dan Raviv and Yossi Melman.
 

My2Cents

Active Member
On a new note: DEBKA says they have sources commenting the United States will refuel Israeli aircraft if they attack Iran. Not the best source, sure, but the first confirming what most of us felt anyway. Israel cannot reach Iran without help. This means that Israeli attack jets would likely overfly Syria or Jordan, through Iraq, and then over the gulf. Going around Turkey to the black sea, over Georgia and Azerbaijan would take too long and too far, in my opinion.
If the US were willing to refuel them then the only practical route, and arguably the best anyway, would be down the center of the Red Sea and around Arabian Peninsula, thereby avoiding the need to overfly any countries other than Iran. The US refueling aircraft would be flying out of Diego Garcia or possibly Qeshm.
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
There's a three part documentary on youtube called Iran & the West, covering Iran from the time of the Shah through to post 9/11,
Thanks for the link! It's very useful.

TThe Azeri's and Iran are not exactly buddies at the moment.
True but Azerbaijan is Iran's neighbour and letting the Israelis through is not something that Iran will forgive or forget any time soon.The Azeris will also not want to annoy the Iranians too much in case any troubles break out again with Armenia in the future.

If the US were willing to refuel them then the only practical route, and arguably the best anyway, would be down the center of the Red Sea and around Arabian Peninsula, thereby avoiding the need to overfly any countries other than Iran. The US refueling aircraft would be flying out of Diego Garcia or possibly Qeshm.
Yes but this would also be the longest route and if a 2nd strike was required might not be practical. My guess it that the strike package will overfly an Arab country and will be secretly given permission to do so. It won't be Iraq as that country needs good ties with Iran and has nothing to gain from from letting the Israelis use its airspace. Jordan is extremely unlikely as it has nothing to gain and all to lose politically if it were leaked. Turkey would not be an option
as it would probably not allow the use of its air space without permission and any interceptions of the Israeli strike package by Turkish F-16s would complicate things for the Israelis. What we can be certain is that if indeed the plan is to overfly a country, that arrangements will have already been made with that country. There was a report last year about Saudi allegedly agreeing to give the Israelis access to its airspace. Not surprising given the role leading role Saudi plays in the region and the longstanding problems it has had with Iran.

''How Israel Might Strike Iran'' - this article mentions the possibility of the Dolphin class being used and explores the different routes that might be used.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17115643
 
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LogisticsGuy

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #297
A few other issues.

1. Geopolitical maneuvering for control of strategic oil pipeline routes.

2. Jockeying for control of which currency to price international oil sales.

3. Long term issues between Arabs and Persians.
 

Zach Z.

New Member
Chinese Involvement?

I've been seeing quite a few articles on the 'net lately saying China is supporting Iran and would come to its defence in the event of war. Now I don't know if CNN is right or not but I find these claims to be very suspicious and far fetched. If this is true how would this change the situation in the Middle East? I believe the Chinese might support Iran if Israel or the US makes the first move, but only in a very limited capacity and wouldn't really be able to make a significant impact on any hostilities. But if Iran makes the first move then China wouldn't help directly but might use its economic prominence to try and disuade the US from an invasion. But I sill don't really know if this is true so could someone enlighten me please?
 

My2Cents

Active Member
I've been seeing quite a few articles on the 'net lately saying China is supporting Iran and would come to its defence in the event of war. Now I don't know if CNN is right or not but I find these claims to be very suspicious and far fetched. If this is true how would this change the situation in the Middle East? I believe the Chinese might support Iran if Israel or the US makes the first move, but only in a very limited capacity and wouldn't really be able to make a significant impact on any hostilities. But if Iran makes the first move then China wouldn't help directly but might use its economic prominence to try and disuade the US from an invasion. But I sill don't really know if this is true so could someone enlighten me please?
China will definitely use its veto to block any action against Iran in the UN Security Council. China will continue or even expand their regular trade with Iran, including as an alternative banking system, but are expected to demand a steep discount on Iranian oil to do so. China will also provide a source for outside purchases of military and security hardware, software, and support, such as the software used to block internet access.

But that is about the limit. China currently lacks the ability to project military power beyond their local area.
 

LogisticsGuy

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #300
China will not put up an serious (military) resistance to the western powers because of its dependance on trade with the US and Europe to support employment in China.

Russia however, is a different matter. They will see this as a serious intrusion into their zone of influence, and will probably feel threatened. What they will do about it is unknown.
 
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