New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

[T.C.P]

My interpretation of "decisions made behind doors" suggests that we may not know if any took place for a while and only really be spoken about if the decision to pick the Rafale goes south (Which i'm not saying it will) and there is a rush to lay the blame of picking the aircraft on another person or saying they were pressured into it. Again i must emphasise that I have no idea if this has taken place or not.

AFAIK i read a figure somewhere that the cost of the Rafale was some 20% less than the Eurofighter (whether that included operational cost or not i cannot say)

This from the BBC

[1]

That implies the choice to pick the Rafale was mainly economic + slightly political so who knows, maybe there was a bit of "back room discussion".

My opinion, the Eurofighter is a better aircraft, however you can't blame them for picking the cheaper and still pretty capable aircraft from a country they're already pretty familiar with dealing with.

The Rafale will still benefit from developments like Meteor but not the AESA radar due to be fitted to the Typhoon in 2015 (AFAIK this is on shedule) [2]

[1] BBC News - India picks French jet over Eurofighter in $10bn deal
[2] Eurofighter and Euroradar to Develop Latest Generation AESA Radar | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk

I thought the fact that the Rafale was getting an AESA radar in 2012, before the typhoon was a factor.

Not to mention that commonality between the upgraded Mirage-2005 MK2 and the Rafale, was alos somehting which was desirable.

Also the Rafale proving its A 2 G capability in Libya also probably helped.

 

[RobWilliams]

I thought the fact that the Rafale was getting an AESA radar in 2012, before the typhoon was a factor.

Not to mention that commonality between the upgraded Mirage-2005 MK2 and the Rafale, was alos somehting which was desirable.

Also the Rafale proving its A 2 G capability in Libya also probably helped.

Ah, i hadn't heard anything about AESA on the Rafale, puts my point to bed that does

I don't know a whole lot about Mirage aircraft so i can't really comment.

True, but i'm under the impression that the Eurofighter carried out its fair share of A2G strikes during the conflict. The Rafale (to me anyway) seems more 'multi-role' than the Eurofighter as most A2G work for the RAF is done by Tornados so the Eurofighter doesn't carry the same variety of munitions, not to mention its capacity to carry nuclear missiles (i think, not 100%)

 

[FirstSpear]

I don't think this decision was all about strategic value and economics. There seems to have been alot of political pressure & decisions made behind closed doors to determine the winner.

Credit should equally be given to Mr. Sarkozy's government for pushing the deal forward.

Anyways, a great day for both the Indian Armed Forces and Dassault. If you don't mind, i'll be toasting a glass of red wine or two to this later today ...

Respectfully, when the US wins an order it's all supposed to be about the best technology etc and when a European nation wins an order, particularly France, it's all about political pressure. The Rafale is a great machine and the Indians were smart to choose it.

 

[FirstSpear]

Ah, i hadn't heard anything about AESA on the Rafale, puts my point to bed that does

I don't know a whole lot about Mirage aircraft so i can't really comment.

True, but i'm under the impression that the Eurofighter carried out its fair share of A2G strikes during the conflict. The Rafale (to me anyway) seems more 'multi-role' than the Eurofighter as most A2G work for the RAF is done by Tornados so the Eurofighter doesn't carry the same variety of munitions, not to mention its capacity to carry nuclear missiles (i think, not 100%)

Actually, I suspect it was a maintenance issue because in range of delivered munitions, the Rafale and the Typhoon are very similar, though the latter just carries more on each mission.

 

[FirstSpear]

Rafale being picked by navy for CATOBAR carrier ( which by all means and possibilities is unlikely before 2022-24) as an interim aircraft is highly unlikely. I am not saying it isn't entirely impossible, just unlikely. Navy has 45 MiG-29K on order and two carriers being inducted right now. It all depends on how AMCA program makes progress.

Actually, the French should really consider pushing the naval variant in the final stage of this negotiation as they can offer common carrier operations which no one else can offer. Let's face it, India will not be offered top tier technology by the US so the Typhoon, Mig/Sukkhoi and Rafale are the only choices.

If you look at how Australia and Canada operated the identical naval variant of the F/A18A/B and not some YF17-like lighter weight machine, it makes a compelling case for more is more.

Lastly, if the USN had had its head screwed on right, it would have offered Australia the possibility of deploying a squadron of hornets on its carriers in the Pacific a long time ago, when the Melbourne was retired... But it's hard to overcome the control freakiness culture of that service. After all, it can't be a trust issue as British and French naval aviators have been on exchange missions with USN squadrons for decades and the Australians are as close to US strategic doctrine in the Pacific as anyone.

Anyone think France could/should replicate this MO with their IAF/IN counterparts?

 

[The PM]

Lastly, if the USN had had its head screwed on right, it would have offered Australia the possibility of deploying a squadron of hornets on its carriers in the Pacific a long time ago, when the Melbourne was retired...

I doubt that would be feasible or practical.There's the issue of teaching the highly perishable skill/science of carrier flying to the aircrew concerned and then maintaining it.There's also issues with the Australian Hornets as well, as far as carrier ops go.As built, they are only equipped with a light weight hook not suitable for carrier arrested landings (may have changed) and do not have the automatic landing and launch systems as fitted to USN Hornets.Something from the dim dark recesses also tells me that the nosewheel catapult bars are not operational and are only there to avoid the nosewheel shimmy that occurs if they are removed.
There's simply no need for us to go to the expense of maintaining people and aircraft to carrier standard for the benefit of Uncle Sam.Unless they foot the bill of course.....

 

[ADMk2]

Why do you suggest that Dassault had to make "MASSIVE accomodations to gain the sale"?

Price for starters, it came in L1. The Rafale has not previously been accused of being very affordable...

Secondly, they had to commit to huge ToT considerations, including domestic manufacture of the vast bulk of the order. I'd be astonished if Dassault isn't required to integrate any indigenous Indian avionics, EW or sensor systems into the Rafale for this sale as well.

I imagine that an interoperable data-link system, not previously integrated onto Rafale especially would most likely be required, given the unlikely event of Link 16 - MIDS-LVT being integrated onto the significant number of Russian platforms extant within the Indian Armed Forces.

Thirdly France had to commit to funding significant upgrades to the basic platform, including engines, radar, avionics and most likely weapons in future years. That can now be amortised across a larger fleet true enough, but France will be required to provide the bulk of the funding for such I expect...

 

[Twinblade]

Secondly, they had to commit to huge ToT considerations, including domestic manufacture of the vast bulk of the order. I'd be astonished if Dassault isn't required to integrate any indigenous Indian avionics, EW or sensor systems into the Rafale for this sale as well.

I imagine that an interoperable data-link system, not previously integrated onto Rafale especially would most likely be required, given the unlikely event of Link 16 - MIDS-LVT being integrated onto the significant number of Russian platforms extant within the Indian Armed Forces.

Rafale will most likely be integrated with elements of self protection suite developed by Dare and maybe made compatible to accommodate Elta- 8222 jammers as well. Samtel already has a JV for providing Topsight HMD for M2K and Mig-29K as well as Mig-29 Upg, and provides cockpit avionics for every fighter being built or being upgraded in India.

Regarding data link, ODL developed by IAI was designed keeping Mirage, Su-30 and Mig-29 in mind, so it shouldn't be much work fitting it into Rafale.

Looking back now, the large presence of Thales in Indian avionics market and existing customisations for Mirage 2000, it was always going to take a massive fudging by Dassault executives and an unbelievable offer by EF GmbH to change the outcome.

 

[Toptob]

Actually, I suspect it was a maintenance issue because in range of delivered munitions, the Rafale and the Typhoon are very similar, though the latter just carries more on each mission.

Which one is that? The Rafale has an incredible payload for its size, and at this moment in time it is a far more well rounded fighting machine.

My opinion, the Eurofighter is a better aircraft, however you can't blame them for picking the cheaper and still pretty capable aircraft from a country they're already pretty familiar with dealing with.

I note your opinion, and I respect it. But the way you phrased this sentence pisses me off. It's like you're saying the Rafale is inferior, which would make you wrong. I don't want to bait or troll (but maybe I'm a bit of a fanboy), but it irritates the hell out of me that the EF is always seen as superior IMHO mostly because it has (slightly) superior aerodynamic performance and better thrust to weight ratio. Whereas the Rafale has better medium to low level performance, greater payload, more varied weapons options (and we're not counting weapons that are planned).

In the European fighter discussion I'm of the opinion that future capabilities fall in the category 'I hope so' especially with the biggest partners Germany and UK cutting their budgets like crazy.

 

[RobWilliams]

I note your opinion, and I respect it. But the way you phrased this sentence pisses me off. It's like you're saying the Rafale is inferior, which would make you wrong. I don't want to bait or troll (but maybe I'm a bit of a fanboy), but it irritates the hell out of me that the EF is always seen as superior IMHO mostly because it has (slightly) superior aerodynamic performance and better thrust to weight ratio. Whereas the Rafale has better medium to low level performance, greater payload, more varied weapons options (and we're not counting weapons that are planned).

In the European fighter discussion I'm of the opinion that future capabilities fall in the category 'I hope so' especially with the biggest partners Germany and UK cutting their budgets like crazy.

I don't see why i've pissed you off so much, as I said it is my opinion, and in my opinion the Rafale is an inferior aircraft. I'm not saying its FACT I'm saying I believe the EF is the better aircraft. It'd be like me getting all emotional about you saying i'm wrong thinking EF is superior, its petty and childish.

If i was outrightly saying "EF is awesome, Rafale is crap, its a fact" rather than saying it was my opinion then I would understand.

AFAIK the Typhoon was designed to be a land based primarily for air superiority, whereas the Rafale was designed to be a land/carrier multirole aircraft and as such are suited to different roles and neither is going to be as good as the other in eachothers specific roles.

The Rafale/EF weapon systems are pretty similar and most upcoming MBDA projects will mount both aircraft. I'm not turning this into a "this v that" thread as thats against forum rules but overall, EF can carry more varied A2A (Rafale can mount decent quality but less variety) whereas the Rafale can carry more varied A2G (EF can too mount decent quality but less variety) but more work has been done on the EF to increase its A2G capability (Brimstone + later Paveway IV + StormShadow) than Rafale for its A2A, see what i'm getting at?

 

[Haavarla]

Yeah , but aren't you counting the future development road map of the EF..
If that is the case, the RAFALE also have further future development programs going, like new Engines etc, right?

 

[RobWilliams]

Yeah , but aren't you counting long the future development road map of the EF..
If that is the case, the RAFALE also have further future development programs going, like new Engines etc, right?

Meteor is sheduled for 2012 (the month i can't remember) and i dont think i'm thinking TOO far ahead, at most the furthest thinking ahead on that munitions list was the Paveway IV which is currently being intergrated onto the EF. So as far as technological upgrades go, i haven't really included anything amazingly different to what is already available. If i wanted to think further forward it would be the Rafale getting AESA this year compared to the EF in 2016 (i think those are the dates anyway)

AFAIK the engine power upgrades were driven by the UAE who wanted the extra power, not the French air force. The only upgrades relate to the engines service life and cost and not its actual performance.

From the 1st link

One Rafale pilot at Solenzara who has flown in the UAE remarked that one reason they want a more powerful engine is that its pilots are now used to the latest F-16 Block 60, which is essentially a small airframe built around a very big engine, and so find the Rafale underpowered by comparison.

(IIRC test flights with the upgraded engine were in March 2010 and the UAE deal was axed in October)

Furthermore, other websites say an engine power upgrade is not coming on the Rafale (the following either say there is no upgrade or do not include it in potential upgrades)

Rafale Upgrade Ready in 2012
Plans For Further Rafale Upgrades Emerge | AVIATION WEEK
France’s Rafale Fighters: Au Courant In Time?

Should you have info in regards to an upgrade, I would welcome the info

 

[Vivendi]

Price for starters, it came in L1. The Rafale has not previously been accused of being very affordable...

Neither has the Typhoon... Actually many would suggest that they are in the same price range.

Secondly, they had to commit to huge ToT considerations, including domestic manufacture of the vast bulk of the order. I'd be astonished if Dassault isn't required to integrate any indigenous Indian avionics, EW or sensor systems into the Rafale for this sale as well.

So would Eurofighter. Why would Dassault be less capable of delivering ToT than Eurofighter?

Thirdly France had to commit to funding significant upgrades to the basic platform, including engines, radar, avionics and most likely weapons in future years. That can now be amortised across a larger fleet true enough, but France will be required to provide the bulk of the funding for such I expect...

Exactly what upgrades are you referring to? Links please.

I actually would say the opposite, that the Rafale is more mature than the competitor.

Seems that even John Lake tends to agree with me.

“For David Cameron to say that Typhoon has far better capabilities is embarrassing, and I say that as a strong supporter of the aircraft,” said Jon Lake, defence editor at Arabian Aerospace magazine, and an expert in Asian procurement.

“It would have been true to say that it has better potential than the Rafale, but thanks to the cheeseparing of our Treasury, and the other Typhoon partner nations’ treasuries, that potential has not been realised yet.”

Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

These capabilities, apart from the radar, are currently available on the RAF’s Tornado jets and were heavily used by the British in Libya. But their arrival on Typhoon has been delayed by defence cuts.

“For the Indians it’s all about credibility,” said Mr Lake. “If they believe what the Typhoon consortium told them, then by 2018 Typhoon will do everything that Rafale does now. But they clearly don’t believe it, and I don’t blame them, given the programme’s history of delays and cost overruns.

“At the moment, Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb, and that’s it. The combination of Typhoon and Tornado was quite effective in Libya. But on its own, Typhoon was less versatile than the Rafale.”

Tim Ripley, of Jane’s Defence Weekly, said: “The RAF are desperate for further weapons on the Typhoon but it is something the Treasury have been trying to avoid doing. This is a crucial test of the Government’s export rhetoric. The Indians ask why they should buy this kit for their own aircraft if we won’t put it on ours.”

Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph

 

[RobWilliams]

Key to the Indian decision, said one senior defence source in Delhi, was the country’s wish for a radar and set of weapons which already exist on Rafale — but which are not currently present on Typhoon.

The French jet can launch a wide suite of smart weapons including Scalp, an air-launched cruise missile, Exocet, an anti-ship missile, and AASM, a precision-guided bomb with extended “stand-off” capability allowing it to be dropped from further away, reducing the risk to the pilot from anti-aircraft fire.

EF will be able to carry Storm Shadow in 2014 (i think thats the date) [1], it was demonstrated in the Dubai 2011 air show carrying Marte anti-ship missiles [2] and Raytheon seem very confident that in the the case of the Paveway IV

Its stand-off range is significantly greater than any other precision guided bomb

[3] which is in development to be carried by the EF and IIRC i think theres a development to allow the Eurofighter to mount JDAM but i'm not sure.

It also has an advanced reconnaissance pod and the latest electronic scanned array radar. This combination of capabilities proved highly effective in the recent war over Libya.

The EF AFAIK carries the LITENING reconnaissance pod [4] but currently does not have AESA (but will do in 2015) [5], an addition that was also displayed at the Dubai airshow [2]

Typhoon currently has none of these things. The RAF badly wants the aircraft to have Scalp's British equivalent Storm Shadow — along with the anti-tank Brimstone missile, a reconnaissance pod, and the radar.

The first 2 are quite far into the devopment process (Brimstone can already be mounted on EF [6] although its a static display, it carries a reconnaissance pod and AESA is being developed.

How the article appears to be wording this is that none of these are being developed nor is there any plan to have them developed. I do accept that Rafale currently has a greater variety in weapons + AESA but the Typhoon has all of those advantages in development which (i know i'm repeating myself) this article seems reluctant to admit. It seems to prefer to mention what the EF doesn't have without touching on the fact that they are coming.

While I completely agree that currently the Rafale seems like the better MRCA for India, totally understand the reasoning behind it and believe it was the better choice than the EF in this instance but how this article is worded does the EF a massive injustice in my opinion. The main redeeming quote in the whole article is the following

"It would have been true to say that it has better potential than the Rafale"

I know, I'm a EF fanboy and currently the Rafale is very effective in A2A (maybe nosed into the lead thanks to AESA perhaps) and is far more effective than the EF in the A2G role. However the developments I know are being carried out for the EF in comparison to the Rafale will alter things severely.

If any of my info is out of date/incorrect then please correct me. I'd prefer to be wrong and be corrected than believing untrue facts.

[1] RAF - Typhoon FGR4
[2] Two Eurofighter Typhoons Display at Dubai Air Show 2011 | Aviation & Air Force News at DefenceTalk
[3] Raytheon Systems Limited: Paveway IV
[4] LITENING for UK’s Eurofighters
[5] PARIS: Eurofighter to get operational AESA radar
[6] Up to 18 Brimstone missiles can be fitted on a Eurofighter Typhoon, but a typical load for a ground attack mission would be twelve missiles. - Image - Army Technology

 

[ADMk2]

Neither has the Typhoon... Actually many would suggest that they are in the same price range.


So would Eurofighter. Why would Dassault be less capable of delivering ToT than Eurofighter?

I wasn't comparing Dassault's bid with Eurofighter's bid, rather Dassault's MMRCA bid with other unsuccessful Dassault Rafale bids.

Exactly what upgrades are you referring to? Links please.

There are a ton. Rafale wasn't bid on it's current spec, but rather with a still developing AESA radar (I know it's cleared for production, but there's still plenty of on-going work needed for it), an upgraded Damocles targetting pod still in development, upgraded engines which are still in development, upgraded OSF still in development, varying weapons integration and development projects including Meteor and semi-active laser and 125kg variants of AASM and so on.

I actually would say the opposite, that the Rafale is more mature than the competitor.

Seems that even John Lake tends to agree with me.

I haven't disagreed with that point either, though in fairness to the Typhoon I'd say it's at least as mature as the Rafale, if not moreso in some areas in it's priority air to air role.

In RAF form at least it's also not as far behind in A2G as he writes either. Paveway IV is to be cleared in 2012 (if not already) and it is RAF's intent to clear Brimstone and Storm Shadow soon too.

At that point the Typhoon and Rafale will be largely comparable in all main roles, with the Rafale boasting only an anti-ship missile and Recon pod difference, but with some other significant upgrades still in progress as mentioned above.

In any case, I still believe the Indians passed up the best multi-role aircraft in the world currently, in the Super Hornet when they passed on it.

Let's see the Rafale or the Typhoon's Growler equivalent or buddy tankers. Let's see either of their anti-radar missiles now or planned...

 

[RobWilliams]

Let's see the Rafale or the Typhoon's Growler equivalent or buddy tankers. Let's see either of their anti-radar missiles now or planned...

AFAIK the only 'anti-radar' missile used by the RAF is ALARM which is carried by the Tornado GR4 and there doesn't appear to be any indication of intergration onto the EF

RAF - ALARM

EDIT: Some other sources claim that ALARM can be carried by the EF but it looks like it was planned but was cancelled and the idea didn't resurface at a later date. (see bottom of pg149 on document viewed from the link)

And note from my previous post, the EF can mount the MBDA Marte anti-ship missile (as demonstrated in the 2011 Dubai Airshow) so the option for an anti-ship missile is there + last I know of the EF can carry the LITENING navigation and targetting pod.

Deletion of requirements for

1. gun (-£32m),
2. 1500L fuel tank (-£16m),
3. CRV7 Rocket (-£2m)
4. Air Launched Anti Radiation Missile (-£21m)

.

www.nao.org.uk//idoc.ashx?docId=c02da1c8-320b-4062-881d-2c24482459b5&version=-1

 

[ADMk2]

there doesn't appear to be any indication of intergration onto the EF

My point exactly. I know the Rafalites (my term feel free to use it) will fervently tell us the Rafale "does it" ie: (SEAD) in "other ways" (by dropping bombs on them and making them blow up) but the point of an anti-radiation missile, is to give you a variety of tactical options.

I'm sure few would argue with the outcome of a JDAM or JSOW being dropped on a radar site (the site would be blown to bits obviously) but AARGM or HARM give you different options you simply don't have with standard munitions...

 

[ADMk2]

And note from my previous post, the EF can mount the MBDA Marte anti-ship missile (as demonstrated in the 2011 Dubai Airshow) so the option for an anti-ship missile is there.

There is a difference between hanging a weapon on a hardpoint and actually being able to fire it.

I saw a tremendous picture of an Australian, Sidewinder missile armed Blackhawk a few years back. I wish I had it still, it looked great. But the Blackhawk could never have employed that weapon.

Similar with the Martre, it isn't integrated onto the Typhoon yet AFAIK and in any case it's a lightweight very short ranged weapon intended mainly for helicopters IIRC.

I hardly think many would be interested in Martre from a fighter...

 

[RobWilliams]

My point exactly. I know the Rafalites (my term feel free to use it) will fervently tell us the Rafale "does it" ie: (SEAD) in "other ways" (by dropping bombs on them and making them blow up) but the point of an anti-radiation missile, is to give you a variety of tactical options.

I'm sure few would argue with the outcome of a JDAM or JSOW being dropped on a radar site (the site would be blown to bits obviously) but AARGM or HARM give you different options you simply don't have with standard munitions...

I agree, IIRC ALARM was used to great effect in Gulf War 1. Hmm, seems a bit of a pointless claim to make when any other plane which carries munitions could produce the same outcome.

From the RAF link

In Area Suppression mode the missile can be fired in the direction of radars whose positions are unknown and it will engage the highest priority target for attack

Seems like you require less intelligence on actual radar positions using an anti-radar missile when compared to other munitions.

 

[RobWilliams]

There is a difference between hanging a weapon on a hardpoint and actually being able to fire it.

I saw a tremendous picture of an Australian, Sidewinder missile armed Blackhawk a few years back. I wish I had it still, it looked great. But the Blackhawk could never have employed that weapon.

Similar with the Martre, it isn't integrated onto the Typhoon yet AFAIK and in any case it's a lightweight very short ranged weapon intended mainly for helicopters IIRC.

I hardly think many would be interested in Martre from a fighter...

True, although I would have thought that for a demonstration to a potential buyer loading it up with unusable ordnance would be a perculiar marketing strategy to say the least.

Again, true. I was mainly indicating that the capability could exist shorter than developing a new munition just for the EF. Using MBDAs figures Marte has less than half the range of the AM39.