Japan F-18 Super Super Hornet?

[t68]

The US shut the door on F-22s and its a clear choice between a Gen5 platform in the F35 or warmed over Gen4 jets. Now its reall a question of LM's credibility to meet the proposal commitments IMO.

Yep, realise that F22 is not available for export just saying I understand why they want/need it in the first place.

As I said before it’s a bargaining tool, F35 bring a lot to the table over Euro fighter and what the US provides. If F35 slips much further my moneys on Super Hornet, they will do what the RAAF are doing bridging capability till F35 comes on line which might work in their favour in the long run.

 

[colay]

The Boeing offer states Block 2 SH. Does this mean the co-development of the SH "International" is now out of the question? If it is, the EF might get this contract, especially if they can get AESA radars on time.

Boeing didn't get anyone to bite on its uberHornet and no way the company will spend its own money to develop the thing so, yeah, I guess its out of the question for the japanese bid at least.

 

[colay]

Me I personally think it’s a bluff as GF has stated it’s not the platform itself but all the add-on bits and pieces that the US bring to the table, as for the F-22A argument it would bring additional capability to the table in the form of Electronic warfare/signal intelligence role and is said to be able to fill the mini AWACS role forward in the battle area compared to a traditional platform I do see the benefit that this type of aircraft for Japan being so close to China with a hi/low mix of F22/F35A.

I think the F-35 with it more advanced avionics and sensors suite and more open architecture to accommodate future technological advancements and easier maintainability is very compelling option. It may not be the supreme A2A platform that the F-22 is but it is more than capable of holding its own in a fight. In all other roles, it appears to surpass even the Raptor.

 

[ADMk2]

Boeing didn't get anyone to bite on its uberHornet and no way the company will spend its own money to develop the thing so, yeah, I guess its out of the question for the japanese bid at least.

Give it a chance, the Super Hornet International was only released several months ago...

How quickly are these sorts of upgraded aircraft proposals ever taken up?

 

[Kalasag]

Boeing didn't get anyone to bite on its uberHornet and no way the company will spend its own money to develop the thing so, yeah, I guess its out of the question for the japanese bid at least.

South Korea owns the rights to build parts of the more advanced F-15s for sale outside the US. Anything more advanced than the F-15K (F-15SG, Silent Eagle) is covered by KAI. Boeing: Boeing, Korea Aerospace Industries Sign Agreement for Production of F-15 Silent Eagle Conformal Weapons Bay

I believe Japan wants some of the workload for their new fighter. More on national pride, I don't believe they would buy Korean even when it's partially made, especially when they can buy from other sources. I also assume the Super or even the Silent Hornets would be compatible with US carriers.

On why the Typhoon might not get picked up, I believe it suffers the stigma of being too heavy for carriers, having a limited and outdated role which was said to be intercepting Soviet bombers at high speeds, probably influenced by how the Spitfire was used in WWII in the defense of Britain. I don't necessarily share those views and the Japanese would be better than that, but who knows, maybe a politician will base their selection on what they perceive these fighters to be.

They could buy both. Or they could ditch those platforms and focus on upgrading their Mitsubishi F-2s or continuing work on their Mitsubishi ATD-X.

 

[colay]

Give it a chance, the Super Hornet International was only released several months ago...

How quickly are these sorts of upgraded aircraft proposals ever taken up?

This is something along the lines of the F-16 Blk 60 whose development was funded by the UAE to the tune of $3Billion. A potential buyer is going to need deep pockets and the face the risks inherent in the development process. They could recoup some money in potential royalties on future sales but thats not a certanty either.

 

[colay]

I agree, considering Japan is building up modern aircraft carriers, the navalized F-35C seems the logical choice.

I believe the Japanese will be considering the CTOL A model. Japan has jts Hyuga-class helicopter destroyers providing aviation support and no plans for CATOBAR carriers which would be required to operate C models.

 

[StingrayOZ]

Why would japan need carriers?

Its one thing to be able to tap into logistical, development and operational with the USN and its carriers. Guam is nearby and a huge base, US carriers are always nearby Japan. Being able to train, operate with, use the weapons of, share parts with USN aircraft is always going to be positive for both parties. If Japan is short a few parts or the USN is, a shared logistics would benifit both nations. SH has the ability to network in with other SH providing a huge capability benifit when operating with the USN.

Thats completely different to Japan building its own CTOL carrier and operating a fleet of hornets off it. Said carrier would have to be 40,000t+ and I don't see japan building a target that big. Wheres it going to go? China? North Korea?

SH would also offer growler capability to the japanese. Something that may be very important in their region against certain nations. There is currently no other aircraft that offers that kind of capability.

That said, another big hornet user is also Australia which japan has strengthening defence relations with. It would also allow joint training and operations together, possibly overseas deployments. If war was to break out, Japanese fighters could operate out of Australia or Australian fighters operate out of Japan.

Japan could buy 48 SH. Place orders for F-35's once the F-35 come on line, continue to use the SH for strike etc with a few growlers. Essentially the SH becomes the low while the 35 becomes the high.
By the time the F-35 order is filled the SH are starting to retire off. Those F-4's aren't going to fly for ever (first flew in the 1950s!!).

 

[fretburner]

Good point on the Growlers. Has Japan operated EA aircraft though? Or if it's something they would want?

I favor the SH for Japan if Japan invests in it and make it a SH "International". I think that will be a good fighter. If ever Japan will build the SH International, will they be allowed to sell it themselves? Or do they have to go via the USA to sell it?

 

[Kalasag]

Why would japan need carriers?

Its one thing to be able to tap into logistical, development and operational with the USN and its carriers. Guam is nearby and a huge base, US carriers are always nearby Japan. Being able to train, operate with, use the weapons of, share parts with USN aircraft is always going to be positive for both parties. If Japan is short a few parts or the USN is, a shared logistics would benifit both nations. SH has the ability to network in with other SH providing a huge capability benifit when operating with the USN.

Thats completely different to Japan building its own CTOL carrier and operating a fleet of hornets off it. Said carrier would have to be 40,000t+ and I don't see japan building a target that big. Wheres it going to go? China? North Korea?

SH would also offer growler capability to the japanese. Something that may be very important in their region against certain nations. There is currently no other aircraft that offers that kind of capability.

That said, another big hornet user is also Australia which japan has strengthening defence relations with. It would also allow joint training and operations together, possibly overseas deployments. If war was to break out, Japanese fighters could operate out of Australia or Australian fighters operate out of Japan.

Japan could buy 48 SH. Place orders for F-35's once the F-35 come on line, continue to use the SH for strike etc with a few growlers. Essentially the SH becomes the low while the 35 becomes the high.
By the time the F-35 order is filled the SH are starting to retire off. Those F-4's aren't going to fly for ever (first flew in the 1950s!!).

They aren't building any aircraft carrier the size of Nimitz. They already operate 2 light aircraft carriers they misleadingly designate as helicopter destroyers (Hyuga class) and are planning on building a few larger versions of the Hyuga carriers. Also, almost every destroyer and frigate they have have landing pads for helicopters. I wouldn't expect them to build large, expeditionary carriers. Those F-35s will still fit right into those light carriers, making a 40K ton aircraft unnecessary. F-35s theoretically represent one of the most advanced aircraft they can operate on most of their ships. It would make sense if at least the JMSDF bought some F-35C, while the JASDF buys SH.

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/597/
http://www.ships-net.co.jp/detl/201006/001-006e.html

 

[colay]

Japan could buy 48 SH. Place orders for F-35's once the F-35 come on line, continue to use the SH for strike etc with a few growlers. Essentially the SH becomes the low while the 35 becomes the high.
By the time the F-35 order is filled the SH are starting to retire off. Those F-4's aren't going to fly for ever (first flew in the 1950s!!).

LM is believed to be committing to a 2016 delivery date for the F-35s as required by the Japanese. The same delivery date would apply should the SH win the bid. So if Japan is comfortable with the F-35 delivery commitment, there's no reason to consider the SH as a stopgap. As for using the SH as the "lo" in a "hi-Lo" mix with F-35s, the Japanese would have to grow 2 new logistics tails entailing greater expense.

 

[Kalasag]

The Minister explained in an interview with the Financial Times that Japan's alliance with the United States is not the "guideline'' in the choice between the Eurofighter Typhoon and its American rivals, the Boeing FA-18 Super Hornet and the Lockheed F35 Joint Strike Fighter. Tokyo has postponed the decision for several years but seems now ready to choose. Its military alliance with Washington may no longer be crucial, particularly after the USA decided not to allow Japan to buy the F22 Lockheed, Japan's preferred option. The Japanese Minister has underlined that the choice will be based on technical criteria, in the interest of the nation. ''If they don't sell us the F22 and the F35 is not ready,'' it may take several years to complete, ''there are other aircrafts available that are good enough,'' said Ichikawa.

It would be interesting to see if Japan does buy a stopgap fighter or not, and if they do, it will be just as interesting to see if they pick the Typhoon (with the no black-box approach) or the SH (with the SH roadmap). Both have very appealing packages.

 

[fretburner]

LM is believed to be committing to a 2016 delivery date for the F-35s as required by the Japanese. The same delivery date would apply should the SH win the bid. So if Japan is comfortable with the F-35 delivery commitment, there's no reason to consider the SH as a stopgap.

If Japan is interested in a "good enough" fighter and a significant participation, then the SH (or EF) will be favored. If they want the "best available" fighter, they'd go F-35.

I'm guessing LM and the US government will try to get sell as many F-35s to partner nations or some other customer (like India and Japan) as they can because the US already capped their buys up to 32 aircraft per year up to possibly 2017. Any additional buys would be much welcome to LM and the US.

 

[swerve]

They aren't building any aircraft carrier the size of Nimitz. They already operate 2 light aircraft carriers they misleadingly designate as helicopter destroyers (Hyuga class) and are planning on building a few larger versions of the Hyuga carriers.

Only the 'destroyer' in the designation is misleading. They are helicopter carriers, incapable of operating fixed-wing aircraft as built. Hyuuga & Ise would need considerable modifications to operate F-35B, & however refitted could only operate it lightly loaded. The larger ships (one ordered so far) will not be suitable for F-35B as built, but with modifications, could operate it fully loaded. They are potentially real light aircraft carriers.

Hyuuga & Ise make perfect sense as ASW helicopter carriers. The official doctrine for their use is entirely logical. They're ASW flotilla leaders, able to both operate their own ASW helicopters & extend the operation range & endurance of accompanying smaller ships with limited helicopter support facilities. It's not a new idea, BTW: it's exactly what the Invincible class was designed for. However, that precedent is misleading. The Invincibles were successfully converted to light aircraft carriers operating Harriers, but that's not an option for Hyuuga: there are no more Harriers being built, or available secondhand with useful airframe life.

 

[swerve]

I agree, considering Japan is building up modern aircraft carriers, the navalized F-35C seems the logical choice.

Japan has no ships in service, building, on order, or planned which could operate F-35C.

The 22DDH helicopter "destroyer" on order will be big enough to operate F-35B, but not as she's planned: modifications would be needed, though nothing that couldn't be done in a refit.

 

[colay]

If Japan is interested in a "good enough" fighter and a significant participation, then the SH (or EF) will be favored. If they want the "best available" fighter, they'd go F-35.

I'm guessing LM and the US government will try to get sell as many F-35s to partner nations or some other customer (like India and Japan) as they can because the US already capped their buys up to 32 aircraft per year up to possibly 2017. Any additional buys would be much welcome to LM and the US.

I agree, the F-35 is the US government's preferred platform for the Japanese. Its also been reported that to sweeten the deal, LM is open to the idea of setting up a final assembly line in Japan. One can also envision some subcontracting work being allocated to Japanese firms. Perhaps Japan could also be a future regional support hub for countries like Singapore, Australia and possibly South Korea.

 

[ADMk2]

This is something along the lines of the F-16 Blk 60 whose development was funded by the UAE to the tune of $3Billion. A potential buyer is going to need deep pockets and the face the risks inherent in the development process. They could recoup some money in potential royalties on future sales but thats not a certanty either.

Maybe, maybe not. The UAE funded the Block 60 development on their own request. Boeing has proposed the Super Hornet International off it's own bat, in an attempt (along with F-15SE) to stay in the modern fighter market.

I don't think any of the risks are all that great. General Electric has already developed the F414 EPE engine. The CFT's aren't any great technological challenge. Certainly they will have to be designed, tested, built, flight tested etc but that isn't any great issue.

The IRST is an internally housed development of the existing AN/AAS-42 IRST system, that is currently undergoing integration with the "centre-line fuel tank" IRST installation on USN (and possibly Australia some day) Super Hornets, so the basic IRST functionality will already be integrated into the Super Hornet's avionic and targetting system, the only development will be the housing, internal mounting and electrical and cooling re-configuration.

Leaving the LO weapons pod, panoramic displays and the "spherical" missile approach warning system as the major developmental items.

However there is the possibility that any potential operator may not want all of these upgrades, they may be satisfied with part of the proposed upgrades (the CFT's and IRST only for example) in addition to the standard Block II Super Hornet package. The configuration of the aircraft will then determine how much risk is involved and how much extra it will cost.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Can we put the F-35 discussion to bed, please? Japan would be far back in the production queue, and it can't wait to replace the F-4s.

It's a straight fight between the Super Hornet and Typhoon. And of course I would say that the Typhoon should win.

 

[ADMk2]

Can we put the F-35 discussion to bed, please? Japan would be far back in the production queue, and it can't wait to replace the F-4s.

It's a straight fight between the Super Hornet and Typhoon. And of course I would say that the Typhoon should win.

Do you know if Japan requires an anti-ship missile capability for this new aircraft and if so, what system Eurofighter is proposing to cover this capability?

 

[Volkodav]

The Invincibles were successfully converted to light aircraft carriers operating Harriers, but that's not an option for Hyuuga: there are no more Harriers being built, or available secondhand with useful airframe life.

Now what would be interesting is if Japan decided to buy a license for the Harrier as the basis of their own aircraft. Imagine a Japanese STO/VL combat aircraft derived from the Harrier or Seaharrier in the same way the F2 was derived from the F-16.